Fix the damn PvE rules!

[Griffith 362]

just make templars actually be able to kill players, at least on pve.

i mean really beef em up. ( think i can take on 2 or 3 maybe 4 at the

same time, and thats pretty ridiculous. when i was even more of a noob

i planted a deed in chaos and got attacked by 2 ppl. i had 3 templars and

i thought they where going to help me. Might as well have had traitor titles

the whole bunch of them templars.. fired them as soon as i rezzed and never

again used a templar)

 

someone does you a bad once put em on kos and thats it.( with beefed up templars )

if you want to be a hermit make templars able to guard deed from everyone not on village

or alliance.

 

and get rid of that highway rule not a kos zone.

(i know some ppl try to use strategic places to control large areas,

but thats another story. those places could be exceptions i guess)

 

people shouldnt be waltzing in other peoples deeds if the mayor doesnt want to.

 

as for griefing, the rules are clear. if or if not theyre being implemented, thats

not so clear.

[Arronicus 636]

whelp, internet 

Edited July 24, 2015 by Arronicus

[Amadee 1,543]

I think the belief that you can step on your fellow gamers throat, because you paid for something and he didn't, is the very definition of "entitlement".

 

The belief that "you can step on your fellow gamers throat," as you put it, is rampant in Wurm, but can be applied whether someone pays or not.  In fact, I would say the term *entitlement* would be more accurately applied to those who don't pay.  Paying implies, and often uses as a selling point, a certain level of of entitlement. Otherwise why would anyone pay for anything? Of course it *entitles* you.  Those who do not pay but feel they are entitled anyway are the ones with the *entitlement issues,* imo.

 

As for your earlier comments that those who used the *enclose-1000s-of-tiles-to-block-off-huge-tracts-of-land* thing were a rarity, I disagree.  It wasn't as rare as you think.  It was actually quite common and caused all manner of problems. The GMs hands were pretty much tied on that as long as the person doing it adhered to the rules about being able to see a house from any portion of the enclosure. In that, as in most of the gray area issues in Wurm, the GMs were victims of the *damned if they do, damned if they don't* thing.

 

So it got changed.  The situation wasn't good, and unfortunately the solution is not good either and came with it's own set of problems.  I do think that instead of applying a full body cast to treat a sprained ankle, it would have better to restrict the size of enclosures to serve their original purpose of allowing newbies and f2p a safe haven to call their own.

 

There is no perfect answer in a sandbox environment. Even without enclosure rules, people still put up long lines of 1-tile, 1-arch shacks on undeeded land for the purpose of preventing those who are willing to pay for the land from doing so without having to pay for it themselves.  Or getting all upset that someone deeds and pays for land they were not willing to pay for no matter how long it was empty and available.  Now that's what I call *entitlement.*

Edited July 24, 2015 by Amadee

[Proximo 402]

That's absurd.  Do you pay for every tree you cut?  Every clay you dig?  Every animal you kill? 

 

Wurm calls itself a sandbox.  And the rules allowed players to build anything they wanted out in undeeded land.  How in the hell is it "entitlement" to take advantage of this? 

 

I've been premium in Wurm since day one.  But it really pisses me off when this community looks down at free players and treats them as some kind of "peasant" or something.   This brings out the worst in our community, and I see it far too often on the forums and in game chat.

 

People sink WAY too much money into this game IMO.  Seriously I've never played a game before where there were more total alts than mains by such a HUGE margin.  And that's their prerogative.  But there's too much of this "Ohhh I pay lots of money, so it's my way of the highway" attitude going on here.  It's entitlement mentality plain and simple.

 

When game development decisions start being made entirely based on profit, that's usually when online games start going straight to hell and become less fun.

[Amadee 1,543]

That's absurd.  Do you pay for every tree you cut?  Every clay you dig?  Every animal you kill? 

 

Wurm calls itself a sandbox.  And the rules allowed players to build anything they wanted out in undeeded land.  How in the hell is it "entitlement" to take advantage of this? 

 

I've been premium in Wurm since day one.  But it really pisses me off when this community looks down at free players and treats them as some kind of "peasant" or something.   This brings out the worst in our community, and I see it far too often on the forums and in game chat.

 

People sink WAY too much money into this game IMO.  Seriously I've never played a game before where there were more total alts than mains by such a HUGE margin.  And that's their prerogative.  But there's too much of this "Ohhh I pay lots of money, so it's my way of the highway" attitude going on here.  It's entitlement mentality plain and simple.

 

When game development decisions start being made entirely based on profit, that's usually when online games start going straight to hell and become less fun.

 

Umm......just for the record, there is absolutely nothing in my post that even remotely implies any of these things.  rofl.  You are obviously very angry about something, judging by your posts.  I won't pretend to know what is causing it, but I don't feel anything in *my* post should have aggravated it like it seems to have done.  Maybe you didn't read the whole thing?

 

In fact, I specifically said there should be some protections for newbies and free-to-play.  As for a game company wanting profit, well all I can say there is yes, they do want profit.  That's the only way to keep the game going. 

[Audrel 2,223]

But that is inherently what an entitlement is - something earned or paid for. The confusion (to tread on thin ice here I suppose) is the Faux News skewing of the word for political reasons that has blurred the line of what an entitlement actually is. What a non-paying (by this I mean non-deedholder as a f2p is now able to hold a deed) is able to do is build on public land. But that prerogative is overridden by the entitlement of a paying deedholder to place a deed in such a way as to perimeter the non-paying player's structures and to completely encompass fences or anything else they have placed on public land, rendering them not able to be repaired by the non-deedholder and thus eventually lost to them. The rules enforce the entitlement of the paying deedholder. Prerogative and entitlement are not the same thing. 

 

Edited for the fence thing.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Audrel

[Proximo 402]

Everything in my post wasn't a direct counter-point to a statement you made.  I'm just giving my opinion about the situation.

 

And of course the point of a gaming company is to make a profit.  However people play games to have fun.  As we've seen SO many times, this can often become a conflict of interest.

 

I feel it was a mistake for the developers of this game to encourage griefing and disruptive behavior.  Which was the net result of the legal enclosure rule being removed.  The reasons they gave - GM overload - was dishonest at best.  Because as we can all see now, this has lead to even MORE support tickets than ever before.

 

"Give us more of your money or get greifed" is more in line with CodeClubs rationale.  And shortly after, "coincidentally", the prices for everything on the Wurm Shop takes a dramatic increase.....

[Audrel 2,223]

Yeah, it didn't do much for that gray area did it? 

 

All it accomplished was to shift attention from the now rare undeeded enclosure to probing deeds for wrong settings and permission glitches.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Audrel

[rixk 830]

... 

I feel it was a mistake for the developers of this game to encourage griefing and disruptive behavior.  Which was the net result of the legal enclosure rule being removed.  The reasons they gave - GM overload - was dishonest at best.  Because as we can all see now, this has lead to even MORE support tickets than ever before.

 ...

Agreed, but from staff perspective everything is OK. They can now close the tickets with "Not our problem, your own fault". And THAT is the real problem for us, players, currently...

[Cista 428]

Yeah, it didn't do much for that gray area did it? 

 

All it accomplished was to shift attention from the now rare undeeded enclosure to probing deeds for wrong settings and permission glitches.

 

Undeeded enclosures are not rare at all, I can show you plenty in my neighbourhood and elsewhere on Xanadu. I had lots of horses in undeeded enclosures this year.

It also often happens that undeeded enclosures get bashed down and all horses/animals killed, so there is a lot of murder, grief and despair going round. Who would have guessed that eh?  

Oh wait, we all said that this was going to be the case   

As it happens, people with undeeded enclosures just don't forum whine so much as .... some people producing a lot of current threads do... so it goes unnoticed  

Edited July 25, 2015 by Cista

[Battlepaw 585]

Undeeded enclosures are not rare at all, I can show you plenty in my neighbourhood and elsewhere on Xanadu. I had lots of horses in undeeded enclosures this year.

It also often happens that undeeded enclosures get bashed down and all horses/animals killed, so there is a lot of murder, grief and despair going round. Who would have guessed that eh?  

Oh wait, we all said that this was going to be the case   

As it happens, people with undeeded enclosures just don't forum whine so much as .... some people producing a lot of current threads do... so it goes unnoticed  

 

As far as that goes, why the hell would you put anything off deed?    Oh... and then claim it's "murder" and not "area beatification"   As I would.   I do remember what it was like during the enclosure rules, and it was a train wreck.   People would, and still try to enclose EVERYTHING.   Often if they don't need, and never will need it, just so they can have a private ranch many times the size of their own needs.    

 

One of my earliest memories of Wurm was seeing that rubbish on GV, and it was one of the main reasons I went to Wild.    I didn't want to try and play on a more advanced version of GV, which as I did find out first hand when Freedom opened up, was quite the case.     

 

So boo hoo... you really don't have me pegged for a sob story, because it isn't.  I'ts a fact of life on the PvE servers you need to deed anything you want to keep.    

[rixk 830]

Undeeded enclosures are not rare at all, I can show you plenty in my neighbourhood and elsewhere on Xanadu. I had lots of horses in undeeded enclosures this year.

It also often happens that undeeded enclosures get bashed down and all horses/animals killed, so there is a lot of murder, grief and despair going round. Who would have guessed that eh?  

Oh wait, we all said that this was going to be the case   

As it happens, people with undeeded enclosures just don't forum whine so much as .... some people producing a lot of current threads do... so it goes unnoticed  

Phew, glad I was against removing enclosure rule back then, otherwise I wouldn't even be allowed to post here about that. But joking aside, how someone thought back then is irrelevant now, because back then many people only saw their personal gain and how THEY would benefit from removal from the rule.. now we have seen the results of removing that rule(for everyone).

[Cista 428]

 People would, and still try to enclose EVERYTHING.  

Maybe on the sh*tty small servers. On Xanadu it would not be a problem.

 

Anyway, I have never lost any horses, so I don't know why you're coming on to me my love. Please don't get so personal, I am simply informing those less observant that there are certainly many undeeded enclosures everywhere, and some get bashed. I don't really see a problem in it either way. I know that the killings of animals cause new players to quit, but I wouldn't care personally if Wurm loses or gains 10%. 

 

As a side note, how is bashing fences and killing somebody's bred animals suddenly PvE and NOT PvP, just because the victims are new players? This is such a funny contradiction, so I can ask this question again and again 

Edited July 25, 2015 by Cista

[Audrel 2,223]

Indeed it has always been the case. I was a bit more creative 2 1/2 years ago although I am afraid if I did that now, I would be in trouble.

 

Had a guy bash into my undeed noobie farm. When I logged in, he logged out. He did this a couple of times over a couple of days while I wasn't able to fix my fence because he was inside it. The one railing hole he made was opposite the gate. This made my dastardly plan so easy! I went and got me a circus train and a friend. Me and my circus train went into the hole and out the gate and the friend put the last rail onto the new fence. The guy left my farm, needless to say.

 

If I did that today, I would be the one in trouble. He would be the one filing the complaint. He would be the one getting justice. And he would be the victim because all he did was break into some squatter's farm, which mechanics allow. But even though mechanics allow me to lead a circus train into my fences, that would be griefing with him still inside, eh?

[Battlepaw 585]

Indeed it has always been the case. I was a bit more creative 2 1/2 years ago although I am afraid if I did that now, I would be in trouble.

 

Had a guy bash into my undeed noobie farm. When I logged in, he logged out. He did this a couple of times over a couple of days while I wasn't able to fix my fence because he was inside it. The one railing hole he made was opposite the gate. This made my dastardly plan so easy! I went and got me a circus train and a friend. Me and my circus train went into the hole and out the gate and the friend put the last rail onto the new fence. The guy left my farm, needless to say.

 

If I did that today, I would be the one in trouble. He would be the one filing the complaint. He would be the one getting justice. And he would be the victim because all he did was break into some squatter's farm, which mechanics allow. But even though mechanics allow me to lead a circus train into my fences, that would be griefing with him still inside, eh?

 

I fail to see how that would be realivant today.  You can get enough money to put down a little deed stake by selling junk to tokens, etc.    And yea that would suck, though things change, and a new player should be advised differently these days than before.     

 

Maybe on the sh*tty small servers. On Xanadu it would not be a problem.

 

Dosen't need to be a small server, though that does compound the problem, there are plenty of little lislands around Xandadu, and if that server had launched under the enclosure rule it would have been quite amusing.       The enclosure rule was crap, even for new players, and frustrated the hell out of old players.   Lowering the deed costs, and making them easier to establish was a better idea, and protects new players better.    

[Proximo 402]

As far as that goes, why the hell would you put anything off deed?   

 

Well in my case last year, I was happy in a village and didn't want to own my own deed.  However our ratio was shot to hell, because I was trying to breed 5 speed bison (which take a TON of breeding pairs).  So I was pretty much forced to make an off-deed enclosure.

 

However today, with the ability to plant grass in houses, you can have a pretty kick a$$ off-deed barn safe from greifers.

 

 

Lowering the deed costs, and making them easier to establish was a better idea, and protects new players better.  

 

 

Because every new players has the skills, or the game knowledge, to just plant down a deed right?  Ummm no, that's absurd.

 

You aren't even trying to put yourself in a new players shoes.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Proximo

[Aeris 3,751]

Because every new players has the skills, or the game knowledge, to just plant down a deed right?  Ummm no, that's absurd.

I agree, most new players want to build something and they most often don't even know what a deed is. There were lots of suggestions floating around on how to keep the newbie griefing to a minimum when removing the enclosures but they were all presented to deaf ears. I remember suggesting some sort of newbie house plot they could plan where a small fenced in section was tied to the house and unbashable. Nothing big but something that would provide some security

[Amadee 1,543]

I agree, most new players want to build something and they most often don't even know what a deed is. There were lots of suggestions floating around on how to keep the newbie griefing to a minimum when removing the enclosures but they were all presented to deaf ears. I remember suggesting some sort of newbie house plot they could plan where a small fenced in section was tied to the house and unbashable. Nothing big but something that would provide some security

 

Exactly.  This is what I was trying to say earlier.  Rather than treating a sprained ankle with a full body cast or crack a nut with a sledge hammer, something like this with a restricted size would have been an elegant solution to the huge land-blocking problems of the past and the harassment of newbies on their little homesteads.

[Battlepaw 585]

Exactly.  This is what I was trying to say earlier.  Rather than treating a sprained ankle with a full body cast or crack a nut with a sledge hammer, something like this with a restricted size would have been an elegant solution to the huge land-blocking problems of the past and the harassment of newbies on their little homesteads.

 

Elegant solution?  Er rather than the current solution that gives them a deed stake?    Sounds more like you want a new player to be a peon rather than a deed owner, with all the protections included.   Hell you don't need prem, to hold a deed, and you don't need some stupid "faux" enclosure.

 

I agree, most new players want to build something and they most often don't even know what a deed is. There were lots of suggestions floating around on how to keep the newbie griefing to a minimum when removing the enclosures but they were all presented to deaf ears. I remember suggesting some sort of newbie house plot they could plan where a small fenced in section was tied to the house and unbashable. Nothing big but something that would provide some security

 

I've hardly met a many a newbie that didn't know what that deed stake mechanic is.  Havey you actually talked to a new player, that has spent more than 24 hours playing the game?  I do recruiting all the time, and most of that is me scooping up new players fresh out of the tutorial, and sending them to people that can help them out.  Very few of them didn't know what a deed stake is.   

Edited July 25, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Amadee 1,543]

Elegant solution?  Er rather than the current solution that gives them a deed stake?    Sounds more like you want a new player to be a peon rather than a deed owner, with all the protections included.   Hell you don't need prem, to hold a deed, and you don't need some stupid "faux" enclosure.

 

 

 

No, that's not what I was saying at all.  I was talking about something, in addition to deed stakes, and as an alternative to the enclosure rules we used to have.  Those rules caused too many problems, like with vast tracts of land being blocked off by those not willing to pay for them and f2p players & newbies being chased out of the game, but the solution is no better and causes even more problems.  They threw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.

 

It's obvious to me that no matter how I try to word what I'm trying to say, someone is determined to misunderstand, ascribe all manner of erroneous meanings, and try to argue with me about it.  So with this final attempt to say what I'm trying to say, I will say uncle and leave this subject for you all to argue about.   Carry on going at each others' throats and misunderstanding each other.

 

 

-edited for spelling

Edited July 26, 2015 by Amadee

[Aeris 3,751]

I've hardly met a many a newbie that didn't know what that deed stake mechanic is.  Havey you actually talked to a new player, that has spent more than 24 hours playing the game?  I do recruiting all the time, and most of that is me scooping up new players fresh out of the tutorial, and sending them to people that can help them out.  Very few of them didn't know what a deed stake is.

You're very presumptuous and rude, neither or which are qualities that will improve the situation.

[New_Unsleep 423]

This thread is still going on? why hasnt it been locked yet. noone cares 

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

This thread is still going on? why hasnt it been locked yet. noone cares 

Why do you bother wasting your time opening the thread and leaving a comment then if it's a topic that "no one" cares about?

Don't you have someone to pvp with, or do you only like to pvp in the forums?   

 

[New_Unsleep 423]

Why do you bother wasting your time opening the thread and leaving a comment then if it's a topic that "no one" cares about?

Don't you have someone to pvp with, or do you only like to pvp in the forums?   

 

What game do you think this is m8. There is no pvp in wurm 

[Mordraug 2,542]

Elegant solution?  Er rather than the current solution that gives them a deed stake?    Sounds more like you want a new player to be a peon rather than a deed owner, with all the protections included.   Hell you don't need prem, to hold a deed, and you don't need some stupid "faux" enclosure.

 

Aren't you one of those on other threads trolling that one doesn't NEED a deed to play Wurm when we mention it's a bit on the expensive side?