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Ripsipiirakka

Fix the damn PvE rules!

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Seriously learn to use /ignore. Linking a cheaper knarr to yours when you post is in no way harassment, he is just helping whoever it is that wants to buy a knarr, yours may well have been made solely by you but that is completely beside the point it goes no faster, it looks no different. His motives may be off and he might be making your life harder but wurm has always had market pvp, you pretty much throw out the chance of calling it harassment when you insult him, accuse him or others of cheating and then post it publicly in an attempt to name and shame him. 

 

As for getting annoyed with snide remarks and getting kosed for talking in freedom, when I was on freedom I was discussing grinding plate smithing with someone and you pm'd me to tell me that by grinding any skill I was playing the game wrong. By all means don't use alts and don't explicitly grind a skill but don't think you have the right to tell others how they should play the game. I use gaming as a relief from the stresses from life and I love wurm for being a numbers game, if I get bored I can grab a yoyo and spend a year constantly yoyoing to become one of the best yoyoers in the game and why should anyone be allowed to tell me that that is not how I should enjoy the game. 

 

Finally since you don't use alts I guess you don't understand the concept of not being able to reply to chat because you are doing too much on multiple characters. I never speak when I am using sb on 2 characters because I would lose out on skill and that is even in alliance chat where I have people who I like to talk to not local which I usually ignore anyway. 

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OK, like real life? Fine. If your neighbor forgets to lock the doors of his car and/or the keys into the car.. go jump in and park his car in your garage, you can always explain later to the police, that it was his own fault. :D Yes, he could've prevented it to happen, but that doesn't in any way make your actions legal.

That brings me back to what I wanted to say with my previous post... Despite how secure you make the system, s**t still happens, because people do mistakes, that both in game and in real world(even devs make mistakes, because one of their mistakes PvP was recently put on hold).. And someone taking advantage of others mistakes IS offender.

When GMs are overloaded with work, that is not really my(or any of the players) problem, but the problem of the person, who is managing the GMs. But how it was decided to start ignoring certain support calls to lower GMs workload is very interesting approach. Using this approach we could close down the GM service entirely and reduce their workload to zero. How good idea it is, is another thing of course..

 

When GMs are overloaded with that a player did, then it's the problem of the player. Don't forget something and nothing will happen. They are not there to wipe your ass after shitting cause you're just too lazy to think. Anyone who thinks other will fix their problems should start thinking about their behaviour.

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I actually have the combat skills to go over to PvP, but I have no desire for all the political intrigue brouhaha and ability to just randomly get shot in the back while you're crafting, or to login and find nothing there anymore, or any of multiple other stories I've heard come from players who were there.

 

Especially after I read that GM's and the game's creator himself participate in the PvP. Talk about corruption...

Play on MR/JK homeservers, and don't build near the map borders, and you won't get raided. Also, the farther you are from the coast, the less likely you are to ever see raiders, I'm speaking from experience. The politics crap is all Elevation, and a bit on BLH. 

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Seriously learn to use /ignore. Linking a cheaper knarr to yours when you post is in no way harassment, he is just helping whoever it is that wants to buy a knarr, yours may well have been made solely by you but that is completely beside the point it goes no faster, it looks no different. His motives may be off and he might be making your life harder but wurm has always had market pvp, you pretty much throw out the chance of calling it harassment when you insult him, accuse him or others of cheating and then post it publicly in an attempt to name and shame him. 

 

As for getting annoyed with snide remarks and getting kosed for talking in freedom, when I was on freedom I was discussing grinding plate smithing with someone and you pm'd me to tell me that by grinding any skill I was playing the game wrong. By all means don't use alts and don't explicitly grind a skill but don't think you have the right to tell others how they should play the game. I use gaming as a relief from the stresses from life and I love wurm for being a numbers game, if I get bored I can grab a yoyo and spend a year constantly yoyoing to become one of the best yoyoers in the game and why should anyone be allowed to tell me that that is not how I should enjoy the game. 

 

Finally since you don't use alts I guess you don't understand the concept of not being able to reply to chat because you are doing too much on multiple characters. I never speak when I am using sb on 2 characters because I would lose out on skill and that is even in alliance chat where I have people who I like to talk to not local which I usually ignore anyway. 

 

It's fun when people make stuff up. This is literally all the PM's I have with you. I had to go look to try and figure out what you're referring to...

 

Logging started 2014-07-14

[07:03:25] Chat opened.

[07:03:35] <Corsan> Any idea who that is that made that comment?

[07:04:07] <Webbrar> no sorry it was really out of line tho

[07:04:47] <Corsan> I haven't even said much today...not sure who I've .ed off this time...

[07:05:24] <Webbrar> I've never seen him before

[07:05:56] <Corsan> Considering I was responding to Lovefall though, I'm guessing it's her or one of her alts. She's always been a . to me.

[07:06:55] <Webbrar> seems like something she might say

Logging started 2014-07-31

[21:14:07] Chat opened.

[21:14:21] <Corsan> I suppose this dragon kill is going off soon?

[21:14:35] <Webbrar> its on the fourms

[21:14:42] <Webbrar> on saturday

[21:15:07] <Corsan> Ah. Was wondering why people were saying they are showing up today...

[21:15:34] <Webbrar> maybe they just live miles away

[21:23:28] <Corsan> Well, my weapon skills are still too low to make it worth signing up. All 27 now..

[21:23:46] <Corsan> Almost 28 with 2her Swords.

[21:23:59] <Webbrar> are you like skilling every weapon?

[21:24:44] <Corsan> 2Her Maul, Swords, and Axes...doing 1 level per, then swapping.

[21:24:49] <Corsan> More fun that way.

[21:25:08] <Webbrar> each to their own

[21:25:43] <Corsan> That way I won't be held down to a certain weapon...like most of these other people are. lol

[21:25:59] <Webbrar> well i got 57 2h sword skill

[21:26:04] <Webbrar> then switched

[21:26:39] <Corsan> I got 52 huge clubs. lol

[21:27:41] <Corsan> But with all this drama lately, I dunno how much longer I'll be here.

[21:29:08] <Webbrar> oh god

[21:29:12] <Webbrar> 52 clubs

[21:29:13] <Webbrar> wow

[21:29:28] <Corsan> My premium is set to end aug 10th, unless I toss more at it...so I might just spend the next week packing everything up...

[21:30:21] <Webbrar> yea sorry to hear that you feel like you have been harrassed I would have hoped gms could deal with it but it is how it is

[21:31:23] <Corsan> I reported that nonsense yesterday again. I linked everything to them except the people who were joking....including my side of it.

[21:32:31] <Corsan> But I'm guessing they are either just going to blame the victim here again, or do nothing, as usual.

 

...as I barely even remember who you are. I think you were involved with the neighbors that reported the boatbuilder in some way and I don't recall ever even speaking to you, but now you're making stuff up about me. Huzzah. Fun how that happens...this is why I don't delete my logs.

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EDIT: You know what? This isn't worth it. Good luck in your future endeavors Corban.... and I hope you figure your stuff out.

 

And here's probably where you went awry. There's at least 2 people with similar names to mine on Wurm, and I am neither of them. I cannot take responsibility for their actions. One of them is quite 'colorful' in their interactions from what I understand.

 

I've received messages intended for them before and had to reply that I was not the individual.

 

People confusing me for someone else and blaming me for their actions, does seem rather silly though...

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We should totally ban anyone who has ever built a shack in an attractive neighbourhood in Wurm. As the OP notes, we all know that such behaviour was completely unheard of until a year ago, and not a single veteran of the game has ever been found guilty in such a hideous crime. A sweeping ban action will therefore only kill off all the unwanted griefing new players that we all despise and hate .

 

/end sarcasm

Enough with the pitchforks please, this wave of whining and entitlement is getting totally out of hand. Just play and enjoy the game for what it is  :)

 

 

Couldn't agree more.    I think people are getting far too banhappy.  Even if there are jerkwads out there just greifing, let the GMs do their job and stop trying to inflame the situation.     There are tons of warnings as to what happens if you don't deed something, or leave something unsecured.   If a player is harassing someone, and isn't just expanding his permerter to keep someone from deeding over their work there is a big difference.    

 

Honestly from the way I see it, it benifits the greifers more if GMs go banhappy, because there is nothing they love more than to disrup the status quo, and to piss people off, and what better way to do that then get people banned simply because a GM has been given "Judge Dread" powers and starts banning people because they want to keep their land from being absorbed by neighboring deeds?    I mean hell it's no big loss if a griefer loses an expendable alt, but its a big loss if a long time player gets banned because everyone is too paranoid to tell the difference.     :D

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never understood why you cant KOS on a highway. highways aren't to be blocked with buildings or gates, even carrying a heavy weight you can out run-walk the guards across most deeds, guards cant do much damage anyways. Only tested it once but calling for help kinda confuses the guards some just leave you alone and chase after the bear you called them for :o


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When GMs are overloaded with ###### that a player did, then it's the problem of the player. Don't forget something and nothing will happen. They are not there to wipe your ass after shitting cause you're just too lazy to think. Anyone who thinks other will fix their problems should start thinking about their behaviour.

 

So where on freedom is your deed so I can start building my moat around it?  :P

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When GMs are overloaded with ###### that a player did, then it's the problem of the player. Don't forget something and nothing will happen. They are not there to wipe your ass after shitting cause you're just too lazy to think. Anyone who thinks other will fix their problems should start thinking about their behaviour.

GMs are here ONLY for dealing problems which players face(yes, mostly s**t that players did themselves).. They are Code Clubs customer support. I don't even know what do you think they are here for? Mystical creatures riding unicorns and singing all day?

And I would say, that instead "Don't forget" it makes sense to say "Don't steal, don't harrass, don't grief"... Because forgetting something doesn't hurt anyone.. Stealing/harrassing/griefing on the other hand does.

Edited by rixk

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I like the new rules, but then sometimes I hate the new rules. It's situational and depends on the people you run into.


 


For example, building highways connecting starter towns or traversing harsh terrain is generally a good thing for the server as a community. However one asshat can come along and drop a deed in the path just because he/she feels they own that part of the server. Hate that.


 


Other example, a virtual tree-hugger 1.) can't stand the sound of chopping, 2.) feels they must protect the forest and all the wee critters in it. So, they make a 1x1 shack every so many tiles and fence in the entire 200x200 tile area, with no deed in sight (old enclosure rule). Under the new rules, bashing down those fences is no longer griefing. I like this. Does this mean I go an bash any undeeded fence I come across? No, I have better things to do with my time.


 


Bottom line. The only way in PVE to grief someone is to use the letter of the rules to your advantage in that particular situation. Both of the above situations are examples of using the rules for griefing purposes to satisfy an individual power trip or perceived entitlement issue.


 


No one is safe and everyone loves it when the rules work out for them, then they cry a river when they are denied. The rules can't always help you and arbitrary GM moderation leads to suckin up to the GM to get your way. Speak softly and carry a GM in your pocket, so to speak.


 


The rules are the rules. This keeps the GM's neutral and the game as fair as possible to all, not a select few. So far the GM's seem to have handled the exceptional jackasses that overly abuse the rules.


 


Unfortunately, on PVE, that's about the best you can expect.


Edited by Caroligan
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So where on freedom is your deed so I can start building my moat around it?  :P

 

Look for it and do it. My deed is big enough to handle everything I need and is even bigger. I really don't get your points here... There is so much space and if someone is next to you either you deal with it or you're looking for some new spot. It's like a kindergarten here "he's playing with my toys"

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Look for it and do it. My deed is big enough to handle everything I need and is even bigger. I really don't get your points here... There is so much space and if someone is next to you either you deal with it or you're looking for some new spot. It's like a kindergarten here "he's playing with my toys"

Thank you for the permission. :)

The point is that deed rules do not cover everything and that general rules enforced by GM's are needed.

Under the current rules I can dig a moat around your deed as long as I leave a one tile land bridge for you to get out and it does not have to align with any of your gates or stay in the same place.   :ph34r:

If you do not like having to move your entrance every week the only thing you can do is KOS me and that is pointless because I am not coming onto your deed anyway.  :rolleyes:

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Trouble with banhammers...

tumblr_mwb7qryKg91si5uc5o1_400.gif

EDIT: BAN EVERYBODY AND LET ROLF SORT EM OUT!!!

Edited by Klaa
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Jeez, griefers trying to destigmatize stealing just because it's possible due to server settings. Well, guess what? In real life also not everything is nailed down. But still, it's not nice to steal, is it?


 


Whatever happened to the basic rule that was in the FCC?


 


Before doing something, ask yourself: would I be angry, if someone else did that to me?


 


If the answer is 'yes', DO NOT DO IT!


 


That simple... Everything done to harm another player is griefing. We need strict enforcement of the rules. And removal of forced perimeter between deeds.


 


Because the devs seem to make server rules to turn it into a griefer's paradise for non-deeders. Making a deed wall is griefing? DEVS: Well, let's implement a forced perimeter!


Breaking into someone's property, killing off animals just because, looking for loopholes in complex settings is grefing? DEVS: Yeah, so? Bite us.


 


See my point?


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Jeez, griefers trying to destigmatize stealing just because it's possible due to server settings. Well, guess what? In real life also not everything is nailed down. But still, it's not nice to steal, is it?

 

Whatever happened to the basic rule that was in the FCC?

 

Before doing something, ask yourself: would I be angry, if someone else did that to me?

 

If the answer is 'yes', DO NOT DO IT!

 

That simple... Everything done to harm another player is griefing. We need strict enforcement of the rules. And removal of forced perimeter between deeds.

 

See my point?

 

 

Wurm is more like living in a suburban area with a very aggressive and annoying Homeowner-association. It is a hilarious and sad. 

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Jeez, griefers trying to destigmatize stealing just because it's possible due to server settings. Well, guess what? In real life also not everything is nailed down. But still, it's not nice to steal, is it?

 

Whatever happened to the basic rule that was in the FCC?

 

Before doing something, ask yourself: would I be angry, if someone else did that to me?

 

If the answer is 'yes', DO NOT DO IT!

 

That simple... Everything done to harm another player is griefing. We need strict enforcement of the rules. And removal of forced perimeter between deeds.

 

Because the devs seem to make server rules to turn it into a griefer's paradise for non-deeders. Making a deed wall is griefing? DEVS: Well, let's implement a forced perimeter!

Breaking into someone's property, killing off animals just because, looking for loopholes in complex settings is grefing? DEVS: Yeah, so? Bite us.

 

See my point?

QQ

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never understood why you cant KOS on a highway. highways aren't to be blocked with buildings or gates, even carrying a heavy weight you can out run-walk the guards across most deeds, guards cant do much damage anyways. Only tested it once but calling for help kinda confuses the guards some just leave you alone and chase after the bear you called them for :o

 

In this day of Deed It or Lose It Post-FCC, that two bricks stuck to the dirt overrides Deed It or Lose It with the amount of protection they get is baffling. You can no longer control land with undeeded fences but slap down a couple rows of bricks and name it Duhchester Highway and the gods themselves must not frown at them. With a couple bricks, you can dictate who can and cannot KoS. You can slap them right up the deed border of someone but they can't remove them. However, having your perimeter paved under a 2, 3 or 4 lane highway will keep anyone from digging it to the rock since they can't dig up the highway to get to the dirt. Silver lining there I suppose. 

 

And the most baffling rule is the No KoS on a Highway one. A highway is the only place to run away from something that you don't have to worry about hitting locked gates, buildings, or fences. It's the ideal place to escape from a KoS, not that it's not pathetically easy to kill a templar anyway when you can't escape from it. And it's griefing to stand there and kill that templar over anyway.

 

To recap, anything the mechanics allow you to do is fine unless it involves 2 bricks side by side attached to dirt. Then you are in world a hurt for touching them.  :rolleyes:

 

EDIT: Even QQ Caveman there in his thieves guild post said he would avoid highways. LOL 

Edited by Audrel
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Now i remember why i left freedom years ago.

 

(not because of people "breaking the rules", but because you people annoy the ###### out of me, theres literally like 20 threads about this.. plus i got tired of not being able to steal peoples ######) 

 

Totally agree. What people on the PvE servers don't understand is people like myself aren't this way because we've never been griefed or never experienced major loss in the game. I've expeirenced plenty of that here and in past games. I've had my houses bashed down and my corpses looted. I've lost 95%+ of the houses I build due to moving to new areas too. I'm this way because this element of risk (or griefing, if you call it that) makes it all meaningful to me. It's about overcoming. Unlike you, i didn't start on PvE, I started on Epic (or PvP servers).I moved to Chaos.

 

HOWEVER, if they want a server where there're enclosure rules and you can't just bash down an undeeded house, shouldn't they be allowed to? Remember, there're many ways to grief someone, not just through PvP. You can use words. You can do a bad trade. You can cut all the trees down around their deed. You can bash undeeded fences or bash undeeded thigns owned by their friends. There're many ways to grief and anytime you got a bunch of people in a sandbox together there's going to be trouble without rules or at least the ability given to players to set ground rules.

 

I support people being able to have a server with more rules, even if -I- don't want that or even if I think they're a carebear or they hate my playstyle. I'm glad we're not all forced to live on the same server. Ugh, that'd suck. I realize other people think what I like is masochist. They just cannot fathom why I would want to live in an envrionment where griefing can happen. All I got to say is I can't fathom why they enjoy everything being so controlled and boring.

 

Never know. They might force us all on one server someday. Maybe have instanced property too. Carebear pvp. Of course, I won't be playing it, but that's a possibility if Rolf leaves or changes his opinions substantially.

 

I just came back after being away for a month. It's true I play on the PvP server Chaos, but this enclusure rule change must be recent because I dont' remember it. I'm surprised Rolf would decided to allow players to destroy more stuff on the PvE servers. I'd think he'd want to do the opposite: Make it even more safe for them. All I can think is the GM's were overwhelmed and Rolf is working behind the scenes with the team to add built-in safeguards to the game. The problem is this will require large changes which may not sit well with some paleyrs, so Rolf is doing it methodically. He wants the game to stay a sandbox yet he wants to add more safeguards, so playes cannot interrupt other players enjoyment. How to do that? I'm obviously not in a position to guess, since the game is somewhat a mystery still. But it does bother me. The changes will be built-in, meaning it's possible they'll also take effect on the PvP servers. I do not like that.

Edited by Lightonfoot

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I think it's more like this. PvE exists because PvP doesn't have enough subscribers to float the game. Shenanigans exist on PvE because some players don't have the sand to go to PvP where there are actually consequences for their actions. Nothing will change because PvE still draws enough passersby to replace the recently departed. As long as PvE floats PvP, pseudo-PvP for those without the guts to go to the real PvP servers will have their cake and eat it too: PvE protection of PvP actions.


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I call on the GMs to revamp the rules to end the following listed and to enforce heavy punishment and return the game back to the way it was in previous years where griefing of any sort was not tolerated in order to establish a more friendly environment for new player base of people.


 


#1 End the Name and Shame rule disallowing players to run wild with name and shame of individuals and witch hunts. GMs are the ones who should sort out complaints and resolve ingame disputes, not the community or the player base. Issues as of late have run rapid with ingame witch hunts and false accusations. It's Time to end this kind of behavior once and for all!


 


#2 End cross server griefing from Chaos- Deli and any other server. It should not be ok for players to cross servers to slaughter animals, cut trees down or terraform into other deeded players perimeters for the sole purpose to grief others, should be a rule to stop this kind of behavior. There a place for PVP game play and the PVE servers are not it! I propose to change the way the Perimeter works for deeds. A perimeter shouldn't be able to be altered by anyone except the owner of the deed. Consider it a neutral zone where nothing but rapid decay takes place. If you want the tiles you should deed the tiles plain and simple. Acts of griefing should be taken more serious and harsher penalties should be conducted. There is a reason why players like to play on PVE server vs PVP. They want there stuff safe and they want what they work on left alone! Same with trying to look for loop holes to grief. Such as exploiting Kos features or Alliance features for the sole purpose to grief a player. "Example" ( oh yes you may join our alliance and btw set your deed up right next to our alliance- Bam next day the player on Kos ) Or another example (Yeah you can join our alliance, Next day all the horses of a given alliance member deed ends up slaughtered by a griefing idiot that joined the alliance to do one thing and that's grief!) These issues sound familiar well that's because they actually took place! No names mentioned! It should never have taken place but it did!


 


While i touch on the idea of changing how perimeters work id also suggest giving mayors of deeds the right to move vehicles of any kind off the deed to the edge of the perimeter regardless if the vehicle locked or not and regardless who owns it. This would end support calls to GMs to deal with this kind of grief.


 


#3 Personal in-game attacks of players in-game on the GL Freedom and Freedom should not be tolerated. It's a place to communicate for trade and friendship not  to bash one another. They want to insult, troll, slander and act like children it should be kept in a PM format. Call it censorship to keep the game at a peaceful state of calmness. Give and restore Authority to Chat Mods to heavily regulate the GL Freedom, Freedom and Forum postings to stop this ongoing rude and unethical game behavior.


 


 


Some of us are here to play the game and have fun. The Slander, The Witch Hunts, The Name and Shame and the out right bullying of players and ingame griefing needs to end! very few rules to this apply on the PVP servers those that want to act in this manner should play on those servers pvp servers where it's deemed acceptable to raid, pillage and persist in drama. PVE should remain a hostile free environment solely on the purpose of keeping newer players safe from abuse within the game.

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On the #2:
The slaughter you mention was performed by a Deli player who also played on Chaos.
He was not allied with the horse owner.
He had not changed alliance for the years he had played on Deli.

I dislike misinformation just as much as I dislike what he did.

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It's true I play on the PvP server Chaos, but this enclusure rule change must be recent because I dont' remember it. I'm surprised Rolf would decided to allow players to destroy more stuff on the PvE servers. I'd think he'd want to do the opposite: Make it even more safe for them. All I can think is the GM's were overwhelmed 

Nope, the GMs were not overwhelmed with cases where the rule was broken, and you raise a very revealing point here. I followed the debate back then as I have been following the recent pitchfork threads the past weeks, and I can give you some enlightenment:  These uproars are not at all about safety, but about entitlement. You may be surprised to hear that it is some of the same people that demanded the right to bash fences and kill animals of players that have just entered the game, who now demand the right to have other players banned for similar offenses, that have happened where deeds were left with lax settings.  

 

How so? Because the enclosures in the "enclosure rule" were not paid for with RL money, which was the whole point of the rule: it was the chance for new players who had not yet paid for the game, to gather some animals around their little house.

But unfortunately, the whales of the game could not stand that new players and old players alike were allowed to control land for any purpose without paying as much that they did themselves. They therefore vehemently demanded the right for paying players to destroy the property of non-paying players. Now we have the mirror debate, where they demand the right to have people banned for doing similar things to players, with the difference that it has happened on paid deeds.

 

Whenever you see these type of outrage threads, you can be certain that people are quick to stress how much RL money that they are putting into the game, and that they expect to be given more rights because of it  :)

 

If you want to get more philosophical about it, these debates tend to reveal a schism between two attitudes towards a sandbox game: do you want to succesful and be safe in the game solely because you understand it well, have good friends and work hard, or should the payment of RL money guarantee that you are immune to any mistakes and misfortunes? Personally I always advocate that immersing yourself in the game should be most important, and I get disheartened when the money argument always wins...

Edited by Cista
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Wurm is more like living in a suburban area with a very aggressive and annoying Homeowner-association. It is a hilarious and sad.

Yes, personally I like not having a crack house next door, or a redneck with lawn cut at an even 18 inches around his pickup on blocks at the edge of my driveway.

Sadly some individuals must have rules over them to just be civil.

Why do restaurants have a shoes and shirt policy? Do a web search, those are the reasons why.

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These threads are getting absurd.  Someone stupidly leaves a cart unlocked and starts a 20 page flamefest of Wurm and the GM's and acts like the game is broken. 


 


Yes please Devs, turn this game into a Theme Park MMO where we toss out the whole "sandbox" thing to placate a few people who don't understand permissions (claiming they are "hard" is hilarious).  Or because a few A-holes found ways to grief someone.


 


And yeah like Cista pointed out....  A lot of you were VERY unkind to me and others who were against removing the enclosure rule.  You threw "deed it or lose it" in our faces all freaking day.


 


So now you can just suck on it.  You made your bed so you can lay in it.  This is how you wanted the game to be!!!


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On the #2:

The slaughter you mention was performed by a Deli player who also played on Chaos.

He was not allied with the horse owner.

He had not changed alliance for the years he had played on Deli.

I dislike misinformation just as much as I dislike what he did.

Perhaps i wasn't trying to be precise on how it took place with all the fine details. Never the less my point was made on how alliances can be exploited to inflict harm and trap players. No matter how it happen you still had an idiot who took it upon himself to grief another player by killing that players live stock off and for no other good reason then to grief the player. The fact is he was both a PVE and PVP player. The fact is he/she was a player who played long enough that he/she should have known better. The fact is he/she had friends and laughed with those friends as they was doing the griefing, It was premeditated and planned. These are the kinds of players that should be banned from playing this game. Going around to cause trouble and destroy other game players game experience should not be acceptable behavior. Those that i outlined are the facts as presented to me.` You have some sort of facts outside of what i was told feel free to PM me. I was giving examples of grief if you read my post clearly and it was even labeled as examples, I was not presenting facts to the issue to advocate for another player maybe because i felt the community did a good enough job condemning the pathetic player who conducted the griefing.

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