Fix the damn PvE rules!

[Keenan 5,539]

Exactly. Slickshot keeps trying to lay claim to off deed veins as his and therefore me mining them is griefing. It's not. Nobody owns them, they are free for anyone to mine and I resent being labeled as a griefer because of Slickshots delusion.

It's also not griefing to mine your way around a mine door or to get around a deeded mine door. If you really, really want to protect a vein, you should mine around it, strongwall or reinforce the walls of your mine, and ensure that your deed extends to include the tiles you've reinforced. 

 

I just hope this information is useful and helps prevent other misunderstandings in the future. I've found that a lot of people, especially on Freedom, don't know all of the facts when it comes to securing their deeds, mines, and belongings. It results to many posts like this. I'm not saying that the mechanics are perfect, if they were then we wouldn't have Tich laboring hard on permission system upgrades. But people don't even bother to use the mechanics that are already in the game, and instead take to the forums and add to the toxicity here.

 

It really needs to stop.

 

Edit: Ha! My chaos mind taking over. I forget that on Freedom, you don't need to reinforce. Just ensure your deed extends to cover the vein. If you're one tile before it, you can mine it from the other direction.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Keenan

[Slickshot 1,195]

It's also not griefing to mine your way around a mine door or to get around a deeded mine door. If you really, really want to protect a vein, you should mine around it, strongwall or reinforce the walls of your mine, and ensure that your deed extends to include the tiles you've reinforced. 

 

I just hope this information is useful and helps prevent other misunderstandings in the future. I've found that a lot of people, especially on Freedom, don't know all of the facts when it comes to securing their deeds, mines, and belongings. It results to many posts like this. I'm not saying that the mechanics are perfect, if they were then we wouldn't have Tich laboring hard on permission system upgrades. But people don't even bother to use the mechanics that are already in the game, and instead take to the forums and add to the toxicity here.

 

It really needs to stop.

 

Edit: Ha! My chaos mind taking over. I forget that on Freedom, you don't need to reinforce. Just ensure your deed extends to cover the vein. If you're one tile before it, you can mine it from the other direction.

If the head GM investigated and deemed it griefing, then it must be griefing.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Slickshot

[Keenan 5,539]

If the head GM investigated and deemed it griefing, then it must be griefing.

 

I'm not commenting on specifics between you and any other player. I'm stating some truth and fact based upon the rules as I see them and how mechanics work. The action of "mining in a private off-deed mine" isn't griefing in of itself. From my experience with griefers, there's often more to those situations than just the action allowed by game mechanics. For example, taunting in local or renaming things to harass others.

 

That said, you may want to take my advice and deed the mine and make it fully private to avoid issues in the future.  

[Slickshot 1,195]

I'm not commenting on specifics between you and any other player. I'm stating some truth and fact based upon the rules as I see them and how mechanics work. The action of "mining in a private off-deed mine" isn't griefing in of itself. From my experience with griefers, there's often more to those situations than just the action allowed by game mechanics. For example, taunting in local or renaming things to harass others.

 

That said, you may want to take my advice and deed the mine and make it fully private to avoid issues in the future.

If deeding the entire mine was an option I would have done it a long time ago, believe me.  The deed next to mine shares a border and so I have never been able to expand.  Unfortunately some of our more precious ores fell on the side that was in our perimeter, but not in our deed.  However, until recently, our neighborhood was a peaceful one where players respected each other and asked for access to private mines in order to mine the treasured ores inside.  This system worked well and was based off of good standing moral principles, honesty and trust.

 

Unfortunately another player decided he didn't care for being peaceful and respectful, and instead decided to force entry and then play the innocent part.  Luckily for us he had just done something heinous recently to our neighbor in an attempt to grief us, but had mistaken the property for being ours, so there was history there for the GMs to fall back on.  Also, fortunately for us, griefing has nothing to do with following or breaking the rules.  Griefing only has anything to do with intent.  If it is your intent to harm others and disrupt their play, and that intent is proven - usually based on past occurrences and circumstances surrounding the issue at hand - then griefing can also be proven.  This was the case in this specific matter, and so it was dealt with appropriately.  Although a ban would have been preferable as this was a repeat offense after a previous warning was given, it was still appreciated that the GMs did their job correctly and used the space and wisdom they have to make judgment calls wisely.  This was a good example of the system working out as it is designed.

 

None of this changes the fact, of course, that players are unable to take justice into their own hands on PvE servers, which leaves us severely crippled when it comes to getting the justice we feel we deserve.  However, that's just the way it is right now, and isn't likely to change due to how complicated it would be to maintain such a system without giving too much power to the players to run amok.

 

Edit:  Hopefully all of this has been spelled out enough to warrant leaving it be as it is now, as the case is closed.  Feel free to ramble on Gumbo and claim your innocence if you'd like, its whatever. 

 

At this point we're just....

Edited August 12, 2015 by Slickshot

[JakeRivers 2,921]

If the mine is not deeded it is not private and anyone can mine it, it is as simple as that.

[Gumbo 1,563]

Edit: actually this way is a better.

 

The following is the history between Slickshot and myself up until recently. It is proof that he is the one who has created the negative history that the staff have had to deal with. You've been butt hurt ever since the staff ruled against you when your villager accidentally intentionally jumped into my deeded mine twice, and I requested an apology for you wasting my time in exchange for his release. You actually lied to the head GM saying I trapped your villager in the mine during that failed attempt to make me the evil one, and I bet your got an earful for doing that. You then continually trolled my "Name the Tunnel" contest thread after you lost, merely because you didn't like the name that did win, starting here - http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/97881-name-the-tunnel-contest/page-6#entry1001016

Both times I took the high road and hoped things would simply blow over and you would go away, and that seems to have really stuck in your craw. I hope the staff reading this will realize this and act accordingly. Anyway, that has not been the case, you continue to follow me around trying to make me look bad. Now your trying to place blame on me for something else. I think everyone is seeing the pattern you are creating. So the one time I mine some veins close to your deed, you pull out the old stories of our past negative history that you've created, then claim harassment by me. I'm no longer going to take the high road and back down. You're butt hurt plain and simple and YOU cannot get over it. Why don't you do everyone a favour and just go away, we're all getting tired of your childish games and immense ego.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Gumbo

[rixk 830]

Locked minedoor is pretty good indication, that it is not a public mine. People don't use doors/locks/fences, just to build an obstacle course for others. If you have to bash in to somewhere to take stuff, you know, that you are taking something that is not yours. Especially when the owner is active/standing next to you.. this does even rule out "scavenging". Doesn't matter if it is ore, or some tool.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

Locked minedoor is pretty good indication, that it is not a public mine. People don't use doors/locks/fences, just to build an obstacle course for others. If you have to bash in to somewhere to take stuff, you know, that you are taking something that is not yours. Especially when the owner is active/standing next to you.. this does even rule out "scavenging". Doesn't matter if it is ore, or some tool.

 

Locked mine door still does not make it a private mine.

 

If it was meant to make a mine private you would not be able to bash it down.

[Parsiuk 38]

Last few posts (about bashing undeeded mine entrance) seems to me like a discussion between reality and in-game reality. These are completely two different things and imho opinion you can't expect someone in-game to be playing by real world rules. To do so we would need a game engine which can simulate every grain of sand on the beach. Guys, you're never gonna agree, just move on.

[Keenan 5,539]

Locked minedoor is pretty good indication, that it is not a public mine. People don't use doors/locks/fences, just to build an obstacle course for others. If you have to bash in to somewhere to take stuff, you know, that you are taking something that is not yours. Especially when the owner is active/standing next to you.. this does even rule out "scavenging". Doesn't matter if it is ore, or some tool.

 

A mine door with proper permissions is a deterrent, yes. A 90QL Steel mine door is quite a good deterrent, as is using strong wall or support beams for an off-deed mine, which I recommend if you cannot deed it for whatever reason. The thing is that it's a false sense of ownership. Some players may bash it intentionally to get in and take what they can, some people are just curious as to what's hidden behind the door - much like my cats can't stand a closed door in my apartment. 

 

The intention of my posts is to just educate that you can't assume a mine door means you own the mine now. Nothing stops another player from bashing your door and putting their own on it. If you use a low quality rock door, they could replace it with a high quality steel. Don't let yourself become a victim - protect it from the start and avoid issues in the future.

 

We could spend all day talking about what's nice and proper, what's peaceful and what's polite. The hard fact is that people aren't polite, and you have to plan for the worst that humanity has to offer. In real life and in games I play, I live by the motto Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

Maybe that should be on the loading screen?

[rixk 830]

Locked mine door still does not make it a private mine.

 

If it was meant to make a mine private you would not be able to bash it down.

No, it is still private. Yes, you can ignore it and bash in there, but that doesn't change the fact, that locked mines are private. If the access was public, anyone could enter without obstructions, even mine doors iirc allow to set the access public(can be wrong here and can't currently check mine door settings). So if the mine is locked and you can't pass the door, then you are breaking in, when you bash down the door.

Whether you can get away with it or not, that is completely different matter.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

We can go around this all day long till you get it.

 

If it is not deeded it is not private, anyone can mine, and certainly can bash that door down.

 

Putting mine doors on mines off deed only stop the new players from gaining access, and slow down older players.

 

I bash doors down for the hell of it sometimes, and sometimes I want to see what someone was trying to hide in there.

 

If they were meant to be private every server would be a sea of mine doors blocking everyone else from mining a single thing.

[Parsiuk 38]

Guys, simple question for you: we have a public fridge in the office. I put there my sandwich. There's no name on it, just a plastic bag. Is it public property or is it still mine? Are other free to eat it?

[JakeRivers 2,921]

Yeah no name that sammich is mine!

 

Seriously though, this is wurm and not your office.

[rixk 830]

A mine door with proper permissions is a deterrent, yes. A 90QL Steel mine door is quite a good deterrent, as is using strong wall or support beams for an off-deed mine, which I recommend if you cannot deed it for whatever reason. The thing is that it's a false sense of ownership. Some players may bash it intentionally to get in and take what they can, some people are just curious as to what's hidden behind the door - much like my cats can't stand a closed door in my apartment. 

 

The intention of my posts is to just educate that you can't assume a mine door means you own the mine now. Nothing stops another player from bashing your door and putting their own on it. If you use a low quality rock door, they could replace it with a high quality steel. Don't let yourself become a victim - protect it from the start and avoid issues in the future.

 

We could spend all day talking about what's nice and proper, what's peaceful and what's polite. The hard fact is that people aren't polite, and you have to plan for the worst that humanity has to offer. In real life and in games I play, I live by the motto Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

Maybe that should be on the loading screen?

Yes, you are right, that many/some people aren't polite and don't want to play nice.

But this brings us to the fundamental question, do we make our ruleset based on how they(the not so polite people) want to play or how the nice people want to play. These are completely different and conflicting playstyles and sadly those people, who aren't so nice, are getting their enjoyment at the expence of those, who choose to play nice.

[Bachus 462]

A mine door with proper permissions is a deterrent, yes. A 90QL Steel mine door is quite a good deterrent, as is using strong wall or support beams for an off-deed mine, which I recommend if you cannot deed it for whatever reason. The thing is that it's a false sense of ownership. Some players may bash it intentionally to get in and take what they can, some people are just curious as to what's hidden behind the door - much like my cats can't stand a closed door in my apartment. 

 

The intention of my posts is to just educate that you can't assume a mine door means you own the mine now. Nothing stops another player from bashing your door and putting their own on it. If you use a low quality rock door, they could replace it with a high quality steel. Don't let yourself become a victim - protect it from the start and avoid issues in the future.

 

We could spend all day talking about what's nice and proper, what's peaceful and what's polite. The hard fact is that people aren't polite, and you have to plan for the worst that humanity has to offer. In real life and in games I play, I live by the motto Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

Maybe that should be on the loading screen?

 

It is a sad state of affairs when a member of the staff is condoning behavior that is against the spirit and letter of the rule of freedom.

"Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others."

 

If you are bashing into a place you are obviously not 'playing nice', not being constructive, and intend to do harm to others.

[JakeRivers 2,921]

Asking other people to play by rules you make up will not change how wurm operates.

 

If you put up a silly fence staking claim to some area because you don't want to spend extra silver deeding it, expect holes to appear in it and stuff to vanish.

[Keenan 5,539]

It is a sad state of affairs when a member of the staff is condoning behavior that is against the spirit and letter of the rule of freedom.

"Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others."

 

If you are bashing into a place you are obviously not 'playing nice', not being constructive, and intend to do harm to others.

 

On Deliverance, I had a mine that I used often. It was close to my deed and I never bothered to put a door on it because I didn't care if other people hit the iron ore inside. One day, I came by and saw a low quality rock mine door on it.

I bashed it off.

I don't see how that is intending to do harm.

 

Personally, if I see a mine with a steel door, I'm not likely going to bash it. Even a wooden or iron door. If I do end up bashing one and someone tells me, "Hey! That's mine! Please stop!" - I am likely going to stop and talk to them and not bash it in front of them while taunting them and being a jerk. That's the fine line between doing harm, I think. If I'm standing in front of you, making rude gestures while bashing your door and laughing in your face, I am obviously doing harm, no?

 

It's a sad state of affairs when a player and staff member can't be objective in his views without being called out in every other post. I'm sorry my views are not yours, but that's what makes things interesting.

[Audrel 2,223]

Guys, simple question for you: we have a public fridge in the office. I put there my sandwich. There's no name on it, just a plastic bag. Is it public property or is it still mine? Are other free to eat it?

 

From experience? LOL That sandwich is as good as eaten!

[Bachus 462]

Asking other people to play by rules you make up will not change how wurm operates.

 

If you put up a silly fence staking claim to some area because you don't want to spend extra silver deeding it, expect holes to appear in it and stuff to vanish.

I didn't make up that rule it is on the Wurm Rules page.

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/

 

@ Keenan:   In the case you stated the other person was griefing by preventing access.

"A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you."

[ShadowStrife 6]

I am a new player to wurm, I have been playing for less than 24 hours in-game (Still have my newbie perks).
 

I have been reading through the forums to see what kind of community I will be getting myself involved with. After reading through the entirety of this thread, I feel as though it would be a good idea to share my opinion as a new player: fresh off the tutorial island boat, if you will.

I believe the current rules are fine the way they are, I believe players are having issues because they are not "Preparing for the worst and hoping for the best", as Keenan put it... Basically what I mean here is that the rules are pretty self sufficient and clear to the community, and it is the victim's fault with not securing their property the way they should that meets said mechanics and deed rules.

I also saw a post that new players do not find out what a deed steak is, I found out what it is and what it does within the first 30 minutes of playing, I am currently searching for the perfect piece of land to place it to mark my property and build myself up from there.

Also, the community has been very helpful and friendly towards me. I joined a settlement that I found right in local chat on complete accident while finding said "Perfect Spot" to place my deed steak.

Bottom line is, I believe new players can be engaged enough to learn what needs to be done within the first 24hrs of fiddling with the game and their characters. I have read a lot of threads on the forums when I'm not online, used the wiki for everything I did not understand (Until I joined the before mentioned settlement, then I started asking the people there all sorts of questions lol). Figured out how to carve wood, make bows, kindling, how to fuel a forge to smelt iron ore from our mines... and so on.

And by the way, good to meet you all! 

[Trepper 78]

the bigest problem is alot of players come back and remeber the old enclosure rules many of us tryed to fight that change but its here to stay.  Deed it or sand the chance of lossing it.   Sadly but that the simple rule.   Yes some times players do block a deeds expansion but normaly its when someone new comes in and sets up house nuzzeled in next to someone else that person may have wanted more privacy.  Its best to ask people in the area first before deeding many will help you get a good spot at the same time you will be makeing a friend instead of upseting those you will being playing WURM with.   Deeding a place is much much cheaper and easyer now then in the past so its realy a mater of people not wanting to pay a couple dollars a month to set up and maintain a nice small sized secure area.  You may not like the rules but we all have to live with them best to learn them and enjoy the game.

 

Very well said Shadowstrife I dont think it could be any better said.  Your right there are alot of good people in WURM that are very willing to help its the players that have kept me playing WURM for all these years.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Trepper

[Rasu 561]

I didn't make up that rule it is on the Wurm Rules page.

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/

 

@ Keenan:   In the case you stated the other person was griefing by preventing access.

"A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you."

So where does it state mine in that rule?

[Slickshot 1,195]

Yes, you are right, that many/some people aren't polite and don't want to play nice.

But this brings us to the fundamental question, do we make our ruleset based on how they(the not so polite people) want to play or how the nice people want to play. These are completely different and conflicting playstyles and sadly those people, who aren't so nice, are getting their enjoyment at the expence of those, who choose to play nice.

 

It is a sad state of affairs when a member of the staff is condoning behavior that is against the spirit and letter of the rule of freedom.

"Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others."

 

If you are bashing into a place you are obviously not 'playing nice', not being constructive, and intend to do harm to others.

It is because of people like you, that the Wurm community is mostly good and fun to play in.  Thank you guys for not stooping to the level of others who have chosen a route of griefing, or defending known griefers.  I salute you, and commend your bravery and honesty.  Bravo gentlemen, bravo.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Slickshot

[Bachus 462]

So where does it state mine in that rule?

  I see you are one of those people who need everything spelled out for you because you can not think on your own.

 

A mine is a structure made by mining an entrance and hollowing out the rock instead of using planks or bricks.  It is no different than fencing off resources such as tar or clay, those are not in the rules either but have been deemed by the GM's time and again as griefing when someone blocked off access.

If someone has put in the effort to make a mine entrance then they should be the ones to be able to choose whether to allow others to use it.  However if it is not deeded another could make a new entrance if one is blocked.  The difference is if you are bashing into a mine you are doing something DESTRUCTIVE to profit from someone else's toil.  If you make your own then you are doing something CONSTRUCTIVE to gain materials.