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Journeya

Not having pure PvE HURTS Wurm!

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And what's advertised to the new player vs reality... deceptive.

 

like when the front page said that wurm had no classes (nope, priests)

 

like when the front page said that you could kill dragons (nope, dead / penned)

 

like when the patch notes said that a feature was unintended, then it was reported and deemed intended or vice versa (insert example here)

 

like when the staff said that there is no corruption (nope, no one is perfect, ever, in game, in real life, players, citizens, staff, government)

 

like when...

 

@ the main issue: there is pve, I just highly doubt Rolf even knows what needs to be done or he flat out refuses to take the only measures that will actually fix the problem

Edited by MisterTeddy

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you know what hurts the game?......


 


When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.


 


Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.


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you know what hurts the game?......

 

When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.

 

Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.

 

I wouldn't even tell a newbie about the forums the past few days.

The devs really need to just lock/close these threads and put up another public "We're working on it" thread.

 

Also ban (or even just ban from freedom) SirLaw, make it publicly known they are doing something to fix it and remove people like this.

Edited by Outlaw

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you know what hurts the game?......

 

When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.

 

Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.

 

 

There have been more than only a "few" of those so called instances happening recently (in the past 6 months). That might either indicate a rising tendency of more and more morons coming to the PvE servers to mess peoples hard work up or there might as well be a misconcepstion on your behalf on how often these things actually _really_ happen

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you know what hurts the game?......

 

When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.

 

Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.

 

This kind of threads are just the symptom, the grievers are the real disease, people currently in charge can choose to cure the disease or to hide the symptom, one way will lead to death, lets hope they make the right call.

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you know what hurts the game?......

 

When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.

 

Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.

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you know what hurts the game?......

 

When a few instance of griefing happen over the course of years across a few people of the many and new players come here to the forums and see threads like this.

 

Also, Devs have said they are working on these permissions, anything else out side these permissions you have to take some responsibility for protection their stuff.

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I feel that there are two main issues, the first being the permissions system (which, even with the upcoming system will likely not address all issues as that's simply impossible) and the second being that the moderation pretty much does nothing against theft like this because over the years they've more and more taken an off hands approach to things, leaving these matters to the players themselves (at least that's my perception of things). Problem is that on PvE servers this hardly ever works, and as can be seen it often results in blaming the victim, as they could have done A, B and C in order to prevent the theft, even though there's nothing you can do to stop a trusted friend from stabbing you in the back and taking/killing whatever he wants, except for of course not trusting him, or anybody else for that matter. If that's the kind of community which the devs are trying to create then it doesn't surprise me that the player count continually drops because that's not a very healthy environment for PvE playerbase growth, such a thing only really works for PvP.

If you ask me, what's needed is not a pure pve server as that wouldn't fix any of the above issues unless all player interaction is made impossible (in essence, single player Wurm). The new permissions system likely also won't fix most issues as somebody you trust could still stab you in the back, etc. I think it's going to require that the mods step up their game and hand out proper punishments ((temp)bans, etc) for anything to really change.

Hello :)

In regards to your comment with the second point: I feel that the GM's do take theft seriously, and do put forth effort to help resolve it. This is from my limited experience. With 850-ish players online on a good night, I think that is a lot of work for a few to handle :)

Issues I request help with are addressed fast, efficiently, and professionaly. I am pleased with the support I've experienced. The key is specificity with things like logs, dates, times. As a dev myself in RL, we need things like that to be effective.

Also a positive light and a belief in those you seek help from goes a long way to help with an already daunting task :)

Edited by Verotika

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"We came to the conclusion that in extreme cases where we receive repeated complaints about players metagaming and harassing other players we may go in and issue a warning. If the player does not stop these actions and start acting as part of the kingdom he has selected, he will be set to "No kingdom" with whatever consequences that has for his survival and assets such as deed ownership issued bans as per standard policy.


Rolf"


 


This should apply to the Freedom Isles Kingdom as well.


 

I find it very Ironic that Rolf has stated that griefing on PVP servers will be a bannable offense but considers griefing on PVE servers as an issue the players should handle themselves.  :rolleyes:


 


It is not that Rolf sees us as peasants it is that he does not really care about PVE.  It was his intention that everyone would play on the same server (Golden Valley) to get 'up to speed' and then once they got their skills up to 20 pay for premium and  go to PVP (Wild).


The problem is he created a great PVE game and a mediocre PVP game so many either did not want to PVP or went to PVP and were not satisfied with it so made another character and stayed on the PVE side.


Rolf never envisioned a PVE server and he does not really understand the wants and needs of the PVE community, plus most of the GM's that also played up to this point have been from PVP.  ONly recently have their been Dev's and GM's that were strictly PVE so hopefully those will help him see the light.  B) 


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"Pure PVE?" Ok. Ya'll are expecting civility in an uncivil world. Good luck with that.

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"Pure PVE?" Ok. Ya'll are expecting civility in an uncivil world. Good luck with that.

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Agreed on the Secrecy part. The deterrent against crime that punishment provides is lost when the punishment is not made public.

This is something I had also mentioned in another thread, how secrecy only leads to doubt and skepticism.  Truth, on the other hand, shines a light into the dark corners.

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Please stop lumping in the "community" at large because of a TINY minority of players and isolated incidents.  That's really not cool.

 

And slagging the GM's because you left a fence unlocked or didn't lock your cart, that's really not cool.  You can't blatantly ignore game mechanics then scream you got "PVP on a PVE server".

+1

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Old news, really. In my first 3 weeks into the game i quit for a few months because i was being griefed, and the Gm actually defended the griefers. So yeah. When i came back to Wurm i came with the philosophy and the distinct notion that, unless you're a friend of one, most GMs won't help you, rules or no.


 


The reason for this, like in most problems that Wurm faces, is quite simple. Rolf doesn't want to pay other people to work, when he can get people to volunteer for the work. This results that the people Modding or GMing are normal players, which in turn means they can't have that much power, and/or have to be under scrutiny themselves, which means they will be loathe to act, since they need to be pitch perfect in their reasoning and actions.


So in the end to avoid being accused of favoritism (which still happens, both the accusations, and the actual thing) or corruption, they stick to the letter of the rules, and little else.


Which in the end leaves plenty of open space for grey areas.


This, coupled with poorly formulated rules, and few hardwired ones, whenever they aren't broken or exploitable (which then comes to the fact that they don't EVER tell us what is expected behavior on something, so people rarely know when stuff is bugged, and thus being exploited) makes the game its current state.


So, if you want to see things fixed, press Rolf to HIRE people to work, instead of relying on Volunteers to half-ass everything, because they're just volunteers, not actual staff.


 


I just LOVE when people say this is recent stuff, or just isolated cases. Guess i've played more Wurm than i think, because i can't remember a period of time i played where people being griefed one way or another wasn't a current event.


I mean that one i mentioned, happened in GV, i mean people even on that limited, no premium area managed to grief, and you think that it doesn't happen much on the rest of the game? You must live a very sheltered (or selectively blind) life.


Edited by KanePT
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Without reading anything before this besides the OP; The problem with Wurm is it's too open and free. And there's nothing wrong with that. The problem comes when people start to abuse the 'freedom' of being able to do 'anything'. Even in retrospect to recent events going about the forums, it's just the previous lack of 'loud' GM intervention that makes these situations very high profile and objectionable.


 


That being said, the issue here with not having "Pure PVE"... Deed it or loose it is REALLY the only way to enforce that. Honestly the only way to get around these 'bad' players is to simply move away. There's more than enough room somewhere else to settle, If you're the only one this is being done to in the area, maybe you should move. Sad as it seems, but you might just need to move. I've only had one dispute before, and it was over a mine. At the time, I used the then 'freedom enclosure rules' to essentially gain access to the mine. Over the course of about a month, we duked it out over the mine and came to an agreement, made up and went on about our lives. Problem is, the only rule that covers this type of thing now is the "Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)" And it varies from situation to situation. This is both good and bad.


 


Bottom line is, if you don't want to be bothered, deed it. You will never have a problem on a deed you own. Outside of it depends on your local community behavior, but the land that you paid for either with IG labor or RL money is yours to control. I can't say I'm a "deed it or loose it" guy, but it's the truth. If I want to I can deforest the area around you right up to your front door, internally knowing that it negatively impacts you and have it come off as nothing short of resource gathering. This is where GM intervention becomes debatable. Anything outside of those exact words is up for debate. Thats just how it is. I bet if more constricting rules (Much like the previous 'enclosure' rule) were to come out, we'd be complaining about those next and going about how deeders should be ultimate and what not.


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 If I want to I can deforest the area around you right up to your front door, 

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Not if you are not my neighbour you can't. We now have precedent that says that such behaviour is disallowed as griefing, if you act on a prior grudge and travel away from your own deed just to get back at someone.

All in all I think that is a good ruling. 

You can't prove that someone is getting revenge on you, therefore you can't make a case for griefing. Even if you could, good luck finding a GM that would enforce someone chopping trees in your perimeter. If I want to deforest your perimeter, then I will. You cannot dictate what happens on the land around your village, that is the entire reason we have the option to plant a deed and choose it's size and permissions.

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This is the absolute truth. If asshats got punished, the word would get out, and then the behavior would drop drastically. At that point, only true loons would be doing the grieifing, and it would take all of two seconds to sort things out. Right now GMs hear of griefing, listen to the sides, "investigate"...

 

Since there's no punishment for acting badly, people in a bad mood sometimes act out. If they knew their bad mood would lead to x, they'd exercise more restraint, so there would be less incidents to investigate.

 

The whole "veil of secrecy" thing about how incidents are resolved leads to all of this.

 

Punishment would also give information of what  was done giving those not so clever new ideas.

 

It takes so little time to get the body stats needed to destroy roads, build fences etc, with the ability to mask your ip bans, bans have little teeth to prevent those truly hellbent on getting revenge for one reason or another, we recently received cod mail for a random person to find out its a person still upset over an issue that happened 3 years ago.

 

The variation on punishments and the utter boggling over recent rulings show staff is shooting from the hip, and seeing past experiences with DB and others that cozy up to the Dev team and staff, some will never believe anything in this game is truly an unbiased decision.

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Journeya/SeanCarl - you're such a god-sent angel to us all. Please do tell about all the things and all your little friends from the North Indy Insane Asylum did to me, huh? Yeah.

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Journeya/SeanCarl - you're such a god-sent angel to us all. Please do tell about all the things and all your little friends from the North Indy Insane Asylum did to me, huh? Yeah.

Edited by asdf

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Oh yes - lets put it all in the open! I really don't mind.

Lets start with the worst thing I can think of, from all the "evil" things I did to you: I ONCE asked you to shrink four tiles in my direction and take out your undeveloped deed in another direction than towards me so I could use the space between the road and my old deed (not to mention I already had a building on my perimeter and had it there for a long time). I had already communicated to you when you were placing your deed that I had plans to take out my deed a few more tiles. BUT I accepted that it was really my fault - just figured I would ask you if you didn't mind since you had just gotten the deed and barely started building. It was a better place for you to deed anyway with lots of nice flat land and ocean front, and way more than a couple of tiles to deed on in that direction. But, its not like I forced you - I asked politely and when you said "no" I didn't harass you about it - I changed my plans and went about another project, did I not? Had I been you I suppose I would have rage-quit the alliance and sent you some nice little PM in line with:

<Trofeolover> If you and/or any of the other children grow up enough to act like mature adults, PM me, and then *maybe* I will converse with you. Until then, grow up. Thx. 

<Trofeolover> I don't deal with little kids either, so get lost all of ya. I don't do little immature children, got it? TrofeoLover OUT.

<Trofeolover> I will tell you the same thing I told the other kids - I don't deal with immature little children, so all of you leave me the **** alone! TrofeoLover OUT.

 

 

I MAY at some point have actually moved some items you left on the ground, decaying in piles, into your FSB and bsbs! O.O The horror! At least thats what I think you got mad at us for - because you mentioned something vague about "thiefs" and ragequit the alliance one more time there? Only thing I ever touched at your deed.

I helped you catapult some wall you built on accident, spent hours on it despite it driving me nuts. I helped you build a guard tower when you first set up the deed - how rude of me! (which you tore down and rebuilt because it had my name on it I suppose?)

Oh, and this once I was busy introducing a villager so I didn't respond to you fast enough and you acted all sour and jealous about it - I suppose that was horrible of me to not respond to you fast enough?

Oh, and whats this nonsense about PTSD from my guards killing you? If you recall, YOU set all of your old allies on KoS for no obvious reason what so ever (and you didn't bother to communicate why), and YOU killed my horse from underneath me when I was afk because my kids needed me in real life. So the same night, when you just stalk me and eventually get on the unlocked cart I was using to just move some trees around, and I moved the cart into a pen thinking it would knock you of at the gate since you dont have permission to enter locked gates there, and it didn't - is it my fault you get on, and stay on my cart, that I am moving towards a deed where you know you are on KoS? (which only happened as a response to your behavior). I freaked out too you know - I was just trying to get away from the psycho following me around - and when I had you in the pen I just wanted to get away from you -_-

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Oh yes - lets put it all in the open! I really don't mind.

Lets start with the worst thing I can think of, from all the "evil" things I did to you: I ONCE asked you to shrink four tiles in my direction and take out your undeveloped deed in another direction than towards me so I could use the space between the road and my old deed (not to mention I already had a building on my perimeter and had it there for a long time). I had already communicated to you when you were placing your deed that I had plans to take out my deed a few more tiles. BUT I accepted that it was really my fault - just figured I would ask you if you didn't mind since you had just gotten the deed and barely started building. It was a better place for you to deed anyway with lots of nice flat land and ocean front, and way more than a couple of tiles to deed on in that direction. But, its not like I forced you - I asked politely and when you said "no" I didn't harass you about it - I changed my plans and went about another project, did I not? Had I been you I suppose I would have rage-quit the alliance and sent you some nice little PM in line with:

<Trofeolover> If you and/or any of the other children grow up enough to act like mature adults, PM me, and then *maybe* I will converse with you. Until then, grow up. Thx. 

<Trofeolover> I don't deal with little kids either, so get lost all of ya. I don't do little immature children, got it? TrofeoLover OUT.

<Trofeolover> I will tell you the same thing I told the other kids - I don't deal with immature little children, so all of you leave me the **** alone! TrofeoLover OUT.

 

 

I MAY at some point have actually moved some items you left on the ground, decaying in piles, into your FSB and bsbs! O.O The horror! At least thats what I think you got mad at us for - because you mentioned something vague about "thiefs" and ragequit the alliance one more time there? Only thing I ever touched at your deed.

I helped you catapult some wall you built on accident, spent hours on it despite it driving me nuts. I helped you build a guard tower when you first set up the deed - how rude of me! (which you tore down and rebuilt because it had my name on it I suppose?)

Oh, and this once I was busy introducing a villager so I didn't respond to you fast enough and you acted all sour and jealous about it - I suppose that was horrible of me to not respond to you fast enough?

Oh, and whats this nonsense about PTSD from my guards killing you? If you recall, YOU set all of your old allies on KoS for no obvious reason what so ever (and you didn't bother to communicate why), and YOU killed my horse from underneath me when I was afk because my kids needed me in real life. So the same night, when you just stalk me and eventually get on the unlocked cart I was using to just move some trees around, and I moved the cart into a pen thinking it would knock you of at the gate since you dont have permission to enter locked gates there, and it didn't - is it my fault you get on, and stay on my cart, that I am moving towards a deed where you know you are on KoS? (which only happened as a response to your behavior). I freaked out too you know - I was just trying to get away from the psycho following me around - and when I had you in the pen I just wanted to get away from you -_-

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I'll answer for Trofeolover: Because the poor guy is bipolar and loves us and hates us depending on who knows what? OR he wants to play us out by acting nice then go Trof on us again for no obvious reason. There is still a debate whether this guy is just a great troll or in fact mentally ill - at which point its mean to hang him out here I suppose. I feel sorry for him, I really do, but I got my own emotional issues and I don't need verbal abuse that I haven't even deserved in a game I play to ENJOY myself. Not to mention like I said early on in this post - he is part of the reason my very nice neighbor left the game. That guy would never hurt a fly so why Trof would have a beef with him beats me.


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 Trofeolover: There is still a debate whether this guy is just a great troll or in fact mentally ill - 

Oh come now, that's like saying there is still debate as to whether humans are in part responsible for global warming or not. 

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