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Journeya

Not having pure PvE HURTS Wurm!

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Can you just chill a bit with the hyperbole and accusation and just talk to me like I'm a human being just like you please?

 

I'm getting a bit tired of you accusing anyone being objective on this subject as being thieves or pro-grifers.  If you keep this up, we'll have another thread locked I can assure you.

 

Of course he grieved her.  And no, that is not cool and I'm not supporting it.  But I should also be free to point out it's incredibly stupid to design your deed so anyone can walk into it, and have access to all of your horses.  I mean...hello??

 

I allow access to all areas of my deed.

 

And I expect my very expensive ARMED GUARDS to prevent theft. If they didn't, I'd be annoyed, because that's what I pay real world money for, and that's what deeds are supposed to do on PVE servers.

Maybe in your mind that's "incredibly stupid" - thanks! But to me I much prefer it to my early experiences of Wurm where the entire map was a hopeless tangle of fences, walls, and locked gates with no newbie access to anywhere. Like many freedomers, I like the idea that people can run onto my deed for protection when they need to. I also operate an Inn, have a public access trader, merchant, crafting areas and altars. I don't want to lock those areas off, and I expect deed settings to protect them AND be self explanatory AND intuitive, and I don't think that's too much to ask.

I also expect griefers to be banned, and to my perception at least two of these expectations are not currently being met.

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But what ARE the right settings? A person has to dig; they have to pick up stuff from the ground; they're gonna be on a cart or horseback, so they might need to lead; they have to get through the gates in this case or else walk very far out of the way; they might get attacked so they need to fight; they need to load up the tar... What saves the horses?

 

This deed is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I just didn't picture it. But I don't care what anyone says, it's not ok to be such a jerk. Every single animal was killed.

 

I don't know what the exact layout is of your deed.  And I'm not sitting here telling you what you should do. 

 

I'm just saying if it was me, I would have used brick fences and 1x1 entry houses and other means to ensure that if people needed to walk into my deed and dig for tar, that nothing else would be accessible to them.  Everything would have been blocked off to them except for that tar tile.  Even if it meant making my place a bit less attractive.

 

Call me paranoid, but I know what can happen in Wurm if you are too trusting.  99% of the time it's cool, but that 1% player like SirLaw is just eventually going to ruin your day.

 

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am NOT approving of what he did.  You know that.  Can't I condemn what he did, while also acknowledging certain conditions were present that allowed him to do what he did?

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I don't know what the exact layout is of your deed.  And I'm not sitting here telling you what you should do. 

 

I'm just saying if it was me, I would have used brick fences and 1x1 entry houses and other means to ensure that if people needed to walk into my deed and dig for tar, that nothing else would be accessible to them.  Everything would have been blocked off to them except for that tar tile.  Even if it meant making my place a bit less attractive.

 

Call me paranoid, but I know what can happen in Wurm if you are too trusting.  99% of the time it's cool, but that 1% player like SirLaw is just eventually going to ruin your day.

 

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am NOT approving of what he did.  You know that.  Can't I condemn what he did, while also acknowledging certain conditions were present that allowed him to do what he did?

 

OK, so let's assume you did it your way. What all permissions would have to be open for them to access that tile? I see minimum of at least Digging on deed, which alone could be used to grief the crap out of someone.

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Cista - he used to be a villager - soon deeded up next to me and I had plenty of access to his deed. He had a few episodes when he quit the alliance and unfriended everyone without even describing why, other than that someone had insulted him - but he refused to let anyone know HOW this person insulted him, wrote really nasty messages to everyone he had befriended, and got mad at all of us for associating with some person whom we have no clue about what the person had done to him. You can't ask us to take sides without even giving us anything to take sides on. I am sure he has actual real life emotional issues in the lines of paranoia and schizophrenia (very odd Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde behavior) but until GM theathened to ban him he was terrorizing the community in some sort of 3 year old style rage-fit. And I dont see mental illness as some kind of excuse to behave however -_- Stay on your meds, if you cant behave around people, isolate yourself. Want to hurt people? There is a place for that - it's called a PvP server ! -_-

After a sitting with several GMs and several of our alliance members he has toned it down (the lamp stealing and missing pavement happened after this though - also he killed off a 5 speed horse I had given him and put it at my token, I imagine trying to make some message to me.) He even tore down a whole guard tower I had helped him build and rebuilt one in the exact same spot, all because of the signature I suppose? (just to say something about how unstable the person is.) He lashed out at everyone though so I have no clue if it was personal towards me or not - or I just happened to be the closest to him. I really doubt he is even happy logging in and seeing me there in local, or all my alliance members who frequently visit and chat it up with me. I hate to be forced to leave the area just because of someone like him - which I have considered - but there is a lot invested in the current location so its a tough decision to make, also I really can't give him that pleasure after all that he has done. Anyone who knows me in game knows I don't cause anything - I work on my own deed, I help the community, I try to attract more players if anything because I like people and activity. As should be evident by the fact I gave him animals, built him a guard tower, and he must have felt positive for a while since he deeded up right next to me. I suppose I should have seen it coming when he got borderline boyfriend-type-of jealous when I was slow to respond because I was showing another new villager around the area - he needed all the attention, and he needed things his way or else it was the end of the world and we would all pay for him being upset about something -_- 

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What pve servers need are a special tower with some decent guards. "Can't cuz code split issue" yes it can be done if chaos can get special items/ creatures/ mechanics... other servers can as well, the servers have differences therefore servers can have differences. Deed settings and kos is all we have to combat this kind of passive PvP, and both systems have their bugs and issues. (Guards suck, I was kos when a noob and all it did was startle me lol ... and for settings well things get altered by code here recently too often)

We could use a kos tower with super guards/ dragon strength.

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Y'all thief-huggers do know that even if the insurance legally gets away with not paying, if theft is proven, the thief gets arrested, right?


 


If not walk around your neighborhood, steal/destroy something unsecured.  Let's say... a Stop sign to start off simple.  It's on public land and unsecured.


 


Then tell the judge you did "because you could, and it's the state's fault for not having a cop guarding every sign".


 


Suggestion:  have a carton of cigarettes ready, they're great currency in jail.


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... also he killed off a 5 speed horse I had given him and put it at my token

 

...tore down a whole guard tower I had helped him build and rebuilt one in the exact same spot

 

... I gave him animals, built him a guard tower, and he must have felt positive for a while since he deeded up right next to me. I suppose I should have seen it coming when he got borderline boyfriend-type-of jealous when I was slow to respond because I was showing another new villager around the area - he needed all the attention, and he needed things his way or else it was the end of the world and we would all pay for him being upset about something -_-

 

When I read this I get a stomach ache. This reminds me of one of the griefers in my area who built all of those walls everywhere. He got enraged when his expected level of attention wasn't met. I just couldn't take it anymore - the crying for food, expecting congratulations for every .01 skill gain, pouting if I didn't reply instantly even if I had explained clearly I was busy - and this guy wasn't even my friend, he was an alliance member who would come running home to my neighbor whenever the people he had moved next to got sick of having him near them. He even called her mommy. And he was in his 20s. This is EXHAUSTING. GMs, you can't force us to be victim to this kind of thing. It's being mentally violated. Why do I see consistent support of this aggressive, violating behavior? I've heard other stories too of stalkers, and other creepy stuff - please, why does this have to be part of our consciousness in a game? Tell them to get a grip or get out.

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OK, so let's assume you did it your way. What all permissions would have to be open for them to access that tile? I see minimum of at least Digging on deed, which alone could be used to grief the crap out of someone.

 

That's why you have to be VERY selective in who you allow onto your deed, obviously.  If you give people permission to dig than they *gasp* CAN dig.  Am I missing something here?

 

Sure you can fine tune it to the 'nth degree.  You could even have a permission system where nobody can dig more than X amount per hour etc etc.  But people already complain that the permission system is too complicated.

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I suspect wurm will always have this issue.


Edited by Steeloxide

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That's why you have to be VERY selective in who you allow onto your deed, obviously.  If you give people permission to dig than they *gasp* CAN dig.  Am I missing something here?

 

Sure you can fine tune it to the 'nth degree.  You could even have a permission system where nobody can dig more than X amount per hour etc etc.  But people already complain that the permission system is too complicated.

 

Yes. You're missing that even just joining an alliance, it can open you up to even more holes in this 'safe' system. We should all stay paranoid, afraid to leave our deeds because nothing is ever done about these situations. Or wait, we could just go to PvP, like they want us to. Or take our money elsewhere. Which the more I've seen them do nothing, and the more I read these threads, (Including that quickly deleted comment), the more I think it's for the best.

 

I'm starting to really agree with some of these folks comments...this is a really toxic community, which is being supported by the 'cleaning brigade' that runs around hiding the messes/stopping people from actually talking about the issues, and sweeping them under the rug.

 

There's only so much sweeping you can do before the rug can't be walked on anymore, and I think it's starting to bulge now.

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Or you could just not invite obvious mentally deranged tools like SirLaw into the alliance in the first place?


 


Toxic community?  That's BS!  99% of everyone in Wurm that I've ever come across have been some of the best people I've ever met in a game.  Chat is amazingly troll-free and everyone is very helpful and friendly.  People will travel MILES to give someone a horse or materials and help someone out of a jam.


 


I'm a 20+ year veteran of online gaming/MMO's.  I would put the community in Wurm up against anyone's!


Edited by Proximo
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Or you could just not invite obvious mentally deranged tools like SirLaw into the alliance in the first place?

 

I'm not sure if you're reading all of the threads. For one thing, you can extend trust and then get burned - does that make you a bad person? But in the cases in this thread at least, one person is a neighbor. No choice about it. In my case, an alliance member would regularly embrace sociopaths into her deeds. When I left the alliance because of it, I was griefed in a continuous, aggressive fashion. I'm not sure what you're arguing. Are you saying to have ESP about people? Or absolutely never join an alliance, because who knows who your alliance members will embrace? Or don't try to be polite to the people who live around you? I'm willing to try whatever it is you're suggesting, but I'm not sure what it is. It seems to me you're advising everyone not to socialize at all - ? We are imploring the principals of the game to hold up the advertised PvE, and let us have peace of mind. I'm not sure if you're arguing against that, or what it is. I'm open to suggestion!

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Or you could just not invite obvious mentally deranged tools like SirLaw into the alliance in the first place?

 

Man. Where can I get a crystal ball that will tell me who will cause drama and who will not? When you find one, please let me know.  :rolleyes:

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That's why you have to be VERY selective in who you allow onto your deed, obviously.  If you give people permission to dig than they *gasp* CAN dig.  Am I missing something here?

 

Yes. This side of the game is offered to us as PvE. As such:

 

Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others.

A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you.

B ) You may not call guards to kill penned animals on deeds you are not a citizen of. (They ain't hurting you)

 

Where the permission system fails, for whatever reason, as long as players know that if their intent is to harm, grief, stalk, harass, steal, etc. the other players, they will be thrown the f_ck out. Problem solved! This Sirlaw said several times during his spree, I know nothing will be done. Just knowing he would be in SOME kind of trouble would have kept him from doing it.

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With such a venomous OP I'm not surprised this thread hasn't amounted to anything really. I was about to ask what "pure PvE" really means until I saw that someone already did and they got very immaturely bashed for it.


 


It's a legit question though and probably the only way forward so I'm going to ask it again.


Focusing on the solution instead of the problem for a bit. You don't like the state of things. We all get that. So what should this pure PvE ruleset look like?


 


Is it just about policing or are we talking about fundamental permission changes?


I'm all for strict PvE so I'd welcome a server where players with a tendency to cause grief were kept to a natural minimum. They just wouldn't set foot there. The question is if it's at all possible? There are just so many ways to ruin the fun - put up a fence, tear down a fence, terraform or bioform. When the basic rules that govern how to do anything in the game are the ones used to cause grief...


My personal experience with griefing isn't covered by the rules. When I came to this game to settle, not long ago, I was faced with huge areas around the starter town that some funny guy fenced off for no constructive reason. I was allowed to tear them down to settle there but couldn't because of body strength. Next I looked at a few interesting locations only to find someone built a 1x1 shack there to prevent deeds (no resource in vicinity). The easy fix would be to allow structure bashing and I would welcome that. I don't like the gray zone of "claiming" areas or resources without deeding.


 


Personally I think the deeds and the highway rule is the best thing we got. Tweak them if need be. I don't think it's allowed to block single tile roads either, per the griefing definition, but it obviously takes some admin attention to exact justice.


 


So, I went off on a tangent a bit and to reiterate the question: enough about the problems already. What can be done?


Edited by Skrofler

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With such a venomous OP I'm not surprised this thread hasn't amounted to anything really. I was about to ask what "pure PvE" really means until I saw that someone already did and they got very immaturely bashed for it.

 

It's a legit question though and probably the only way forward so I'm going to ask it again.

Focusing on the solution instead of the problem for a bit. You don't like the state of things. We all get that. So what should this pure PvE ruleset look like?

 

Is it just about policing or are we talking about fundamental permission changes?

I'm all for strict PvE so I'd welcome a server where players with a tendency to cause grief were kept to a natural minimum. They just wouldn't set foot there. The question is if it's at all possible? There are just so many ways to ruin the fun - put up a fence, tear down a fence, terraform or bioform. When the basic rules that govern how to do anything in the game are the ones used to cause grief...

My personal experience with griefing isn't covered by the rules. When I came to this game to settle, not long ago, I was faced with huge areas around the starter town that some funny guy fenced off for no constructive reason. I was allowed to tear them down to settle there but couldn't because of body strength. Next I looked at a few interesting locations only to find someone built a 1x1 shack there to prevent deeds (no resource in vicinity). The easy fix would be to allow structure bashing and I would welcome that. I don't like the gray zone of "claiming" areas or resources without deeding.

 

Personally I think the deeds and the highway rule is the best thing we got. Tweak them if need be. I don't think it's allowed to block single tile roads either, per the griefing definition, but it obviously takes some admin attention to exact justice.

 

So, I went off on a tangent a bit and to reiterate the question: enough about the problems already. What can be done?

 

I think that the PvE people would be content if the rules we already have about griefing were consistently enforced (most of the PvE people would be, anyway). Most of us would just like to be able to mine, farm, fish, build, or stare idly into space in peace.

 

ETA: Also (and I realize I'm repeating myself), but some transparency regarding the punishment of people who were found guilty of griefing would be reassuring, too.  For all we know, Sirlaw may have been temp- or perma-banned from Wurm, and here we are, still fretting over whether or not the rules are truly being enforced.

Edited by LadyCygnet
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problem on pve and pvp is that Ralf thinks that coding things in and leaving GMs out helps when it really hurts (see: hunted)


 


pve needs more working anti-theft mechanics and GM oversight / intervention; pvp needs the stupid "anti-griefing" mechanics removed because they only hurt legit players because they are easy to work around


 


what he so miserably fails to understand is that the majority of people are good and the mechanics cater to the bad majority by giving them easy loopholes while simultaneously blocking the innocent from taking action, both on pve and pvp (the latter is a choice, but it comes with consequences; again, hunted)


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These are all inherent problems of a mmorpg sandbox game. Plain and simple. It will remain and always remain.

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Or you could just not invite obvious mentally deranged tools like SirLaw into the alliance in the first place?

 

Toxic community?  That's BS!  99% of everyone in Wurm that I've ever come across have been some of the best people I've ever met in a game.  Chat is amazingly troll-free and everyone is very helpful and friendly.  People will travel MILES to give someone a horse or materials and help someone out of a jam.

 

I'm a 20+ year veteran of online gaming/MMO's.  I would put the community in Wurm up against anyone's!

 

"Obvious mentally deranged tools" can pull off appearing "normal" for more than long enough to gain acceptance into a village and alliance usually, in any MMO or Online game. I know because I speak from experience. If I myself wanted to I could have caused all sorts of mayhem and malfunctions when I first started this character. I choose not to because I don't have any desire to do that sort of mischief... but even though most people think I am a "mentally deranged something or other" by now my new neighbors thought then that I was mostly normal for quite some time (or at least that is the impression they lead me to believe I gave them lol).

 

Trust me, those Players that you classify as mentally deranged will have more than enough time to gain invites so they can cause mischief... because most people want to be able to trust other people, and that is the characteristic of their personality nefarious types look for when scoping out victims.

 

That's why the permissions systems need to tightened up. It's the only way to guard against Players that spend all their time trying to figure out how to screw over others. A Mayor in Wurm could be super careful who they invite and still get a bad apple, has happened way too many times.

 

and Yes, I agree most Players of Wurm try to be good People ingame.... but those Players never have been the problem and rules are seldom made in real life or games for Players like them. Rules are made for the Others. How to tighten up the permission systems without causing grief to all of us is the hard part.

Edited by geode
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"Obvious mentally deranged tools" can pull off appearing "normal" for more than long enough to gain acceptance into a village and alliance usually

heh just look at our politicians

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Buy more guards. Stop being cheap

 

LOL If they could kill a troll, maybe. If they can't even kill a troll, why would we buy more? They certainly can't kill players. And on PvE, everyone is your "friend" until you KoS them, unless you live by a road then you can't, and the guards don't attack people for trying to break your deed rules. PvP commenting on PvE issues is just like PvE commenting on PvP issues. That crap don't work here. I can have 50 of them and all 50 will stand and wave while the dirtbag kills my horses.

 

EDIT: I know for a fact that 3 of them cannot kill a champion troll. I bought 3 of them on Xanadu two days after launch when I had a champion troll appear on my fully deeded island. It killed them about 6 times before they finally took it out. If I can expect that kind of performance for 3 silvers a month out them on a troll, that players kill all the time, how many do you really think it would take to stop a player who can kill a champion troll IF they are even on KoS when they start doing whatever they are doing?

 

EDIT 2: I have a better idea. Sell me a "KEEP THE HELL OFF MY LAWN" sign for 20 silvers that teleports anyone not listed on it to the edge of the perimeter and charge me 5s a month to keep it. At least if I am going to waste 5s a month, it will be effective.

Edited by Audrel
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This thread's last two pages could be cited as a study regarding how Confirmation Bias and Victim Blaming go hand in hand.


 


Sometimes I wonder if people ever bother to read their posts to themselves, just to hear how they sound. I wonder if they'd like what they hear.


Edited by Dairuka

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+1 to making a place in wurm that is more pve friendly, rather than the current "pvp light" that pve currently is.


 


However, let's give Tich a chance to roll out the new permissions/security system and see how much better life gets.  The ability to distinguish between trusted friends and mere acquaintances will be a massive improvement.  It will be imperitive to have some highly detailed info on the new system, along with the rollout, as well as beefing up the new player education process.


 


Suggestion:


 


Periodically pop up a window asking the player if they would like to run a tutorial of the permissions system.  Maybe on a monthly basis, or every couple weeks.  Then the bases are covered. "I didn't know I had to lock my cart" is answered with "did you click the ignore button on the permissions tutorial?"


 


If we have all the mechanics available for complete security, but the system is clearly not working, then it is a failure to educate.  If we are fully educated in all available mechanics and are still unable to protect our land/stuff, then it is a failure of the mechanics.  Either issue can be resolved and SHOULD be resolved, to improve life on our pvp light servers.


 


One thing I can't ever condone is placing blame on a new player, or someone that simply didn't know how to use the somewhat cryptic security that is available today.  It really isn't their fault and it helps nobody to shrug their pain off as a "learning experience".


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Yes. not having  pve mentality policing on pve servers is hurting wurm. its why hundrends of players leave and why many like myself have reduced our wurm budgets to next to nothing. When the enclosure rule and fcc were thrown out I dropped 2 of 4 deeds, fired all the guards and dropped prems by 75%. Playing as mostly ftp now I find it must less frustrating waiting for it to return to a non aggressive atmosphere.


     When I arrived on Indy back in 2009 it was simple, if you went into anothers established area and caused trouble you dealt with Enki and co.   Then the population boomed over the next cpl of years and the gm's could not keep up, so the enclosure rule was added, but sadly this began to be abused very badly. Then Pristeen was added and another boom, and along with it a new line of thinking by some, let the players on indy take care of themselves, this was then followed by the fcc, and enclosure rule being dropped, and rules rewritten.  No player is ever 100% safe not even in a fort, bugs ensure that, such as the new gliding ability.   The vast majority of players don't even know many of them exist before they are fixed, but not before the griefers know and put them to use.


    How to fix, incredible easily.  The original concept worked, rather than throw them out fix them. 100 lawyers writing a 100 years couldn't handle everything that can happen in Wurm so rewrite the Fcc and bring it back in as a rule, bother an established player and you pay the price, bring back the enclosure rule for the new players, only this time limit it to 10x10 or 20x20, or whatever, with a specified gap between enclosures and or perims, there certainly is no shortage of land in Wurm, but there is certainly a shortage of new players staying, lol and old ones too for that matter.  The population of Wurm is 5 times what it was when I began and the price is up a well earned 50%, so if more gm;s are needed to monitor Indy, recruit and educate them. The core PVE players, the core PVP players, and the core Gm's are all some of the best players I have met in 20 years of gaming, but the constant infighting among all over the bad apples and telling players to quit, or blaming them instead of a griefer because they misunderstood or wern't aware of the weekly exploit needs to stop if Wurm is ever going to return to the once happy place it used to be when u didn't have to live in a fort with no villagers to be safe. A villager that steals from a village needs to be a gm problem how else can you have a society?   For those of you that don't want to live in a lawful community the pvp servers are actively recruiting, try em.


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That's why the permissions systems need to tightened up. It's the only way to guard against Players that spend all their time trying to figure out how to screw over others. A Mayor in Wurm could be super careful who they invite and still get a bad apple, has happened way too many times.

 

How on Earth would changes in the permission system make that any different? Unless we make it so that we can not interact and share with any other player in the game. No thanks to that  :)

 

There are two issues that get hopelessly conflated in these pitchfork threads.

The first issue is that when people fail in their judgment of "friends", or fall out with their neighbours, they blame the game and threaten with leaving. This has to stop - or they should just leave already, because they are hurting the game much more than the people that they have a conflict with did.

 

The other - and unrelated - issue aired in these threads, is that some permission settings and some rules about what is griefing, are working contra-intuitively or are just hard to comprehend. Those are certainly game problems that has caused exploits to happen, and has caused good players to leave the game when they found that the rules were *****ing them over, and each of these problems are worth discussing and worked on by the devs. In fact, they have been good at adding more warning pop-ups, and more of that sort is coming too.

Edited by Cista
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