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Journeya

Not having pure PvE HURTS Wurm!

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Edit: You know what? Who gives a crap. Knock yourselves out. When enough people quit, you all won't have anything left to steal and no one left to harass but each other.

 

Nobody here is saying that, chill.  And a new permissions system has already been announced to be "coming soon".  So it's not like the devs don't care.

 

 

Yes, because killing 70 horses on a deed is "looking for leather."

 

She left a fence unlocked and her permissions were set wrong.  I feel terrible for what happened to her, but come on, that's not exactly a good example of the game being flawed.

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If the walls are off deed, enjoy the catapult practice, if they are on deeded land, well figure out a new way around.


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Nobody here is saying that, chill.  And a new permissions system has already been announced to be "coming soon".  So it's not like the devs don't care.

 

 

She left a fence unlocked and her permissions were set wrong.  I feel terrible for what happened to her, but come on, that's not exactly a good example of the game being flawed.

 

Come on Proximo. If Farmer Bob doesn't lock his gate and someone slaughters his herd for kicks and giggles and they know who did it, they arrest the person and punish them. They don't say, "Sorry, Bob. You should have locked your gate. I'm sorry for your loss but look at the bright side. You can have a lot of BBQs in the coming months!" It's indefensible. Even attempting to defend it falls flat on its face. If this was happening off deed somewhere, yeah, I can follow it, but all of this recent stuff has been done on deeds and the culprit has been known. This guy with Lorraine taunted her while he did it. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew that doing was causing her distress. Doing something to knowingly cause distress is the dictionary definition of griefing. Yet we will defend him by telling Lorraine she should have checked her permissions?

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Regarding the OP, I would appreciate transparency regarding cases where it was proven that griefing took place and the griefer was appropriately punished.  It would give the community some assurance that behaviors that are clearly forbidden in the rules will not be tolerated and violations will be punished. We put a lot of money and work into our deeds, and it hurts when the animals we've worked so hard to breed and nurture are killed for WS, leather, or lulz.  


 


Perhaps there needs to be a checklist on Wurmpedia that players (especially deedholders) can read through to ensure that they are taking every necessary precaution to protect their in-game property. It should be updated every time a new tweak to the code causes a permissions reset or necessitates a retooling of permissions. Since my own incident a few years ago, I've been pretty careful about making sure new people know about locking carts and securing deeds. 


 


And while I know it's a pain, if your neighbors are unpleasant enough to cause you distress, you can always relocate your deed. Other than that one incident I touched on, my experience in Wurm has been a pleasant one, and most of the people I have encountered have been kind and helpful. Maybe I was just fortunate enough to settle near the most excellent players in Wurm, though. :)


Edited by LadyCygnet

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I didn't wall this up, the griefers did it to be spiteful. The area is not beautiful like it once was; only stuff on deed looks good. And if you don't know the area well, it's impossible to navigate.

You are quite right.  I reminisce the times i'd come to visit you and you had shown me about some areas i'd not previously seen.  This was a hidden mountain valley sanctuary Fo would have called sacred.  All that has happened is living proof that just because it's allowable doesn't make it right and now we get to see the implications and fallout of how unattractive it can be when people express their unpleasantry onto the landscape.  Hold steady over there as much as you can, though this is a pve server, make no mistake you are under siege.  When I used to live in that region it was rather hostile and fluent in grief mechanics even back then. The root resides in a mentality and play style by some that perpetuates a group mentality acceptability and thus has it's own inertia.

Edited by Bloodscythe
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If you take out insurance for burglary but your stuff was stolen by theft, then you didn't take the correct precautions and aren't covered. Much like deed it or lose it. The victim didn't take the correct precautions to stop thievery happen. The tools are there to stop it from happening.

Just my two cents about that comment you made. Victims are blamed.

1.  If you are having a party and one of the 'guests' helps themselves to your valuables the police do not say "Sorry about your luck but you let him in.'

2.  So you are saying that Wurm is totally lawless and deed upkeep is just a protection racket.

3.  Not everyone wants to live in a prison of multiple layer walls never leaving their home for fear that something might get taken.  If we did there would be no need for PVE servers at all and the population on PVE servers would not be 10 times that of PVP servers.

Edited by Bachus
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Come on Proximo. If Farmer Bob doesn't lock his gate and someone slaughters his herd for kicks and giggles and they know who did it, they arrest the person and punish them. They don't say, "Sorry, Bob. You should have locked your gate. I'm sorry for your loss but look at the bright side. You can have a lot of BBQs in the coming months!" It's indefensible. Even attempting to defend it falls flat on its face. If this was happening off deed somewhere, yeah, I can follow it, but all of this recent stuff has been done on deeds and the culprit has been known. This guy with Lorraine taunted her while he did it. He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew that doing was causing her distress. Doing something to knowingly cause distress is the dictionary definition of griefing. Yet we will defend him by telling Lorraine she should have checked her permissions?

 

 

Can you just chill a bit with the hyperbole and accusation and just talk to me like I'm a human being just like you please?

 

I'm getting a bit tired of you accusing anyone being objective on this subject as being thieves or pro-grifers.  If you keep this up, we'll have another thread locked I can assure you.

 

Of course he grieved her.  And no, that is not cool and I'm not supporting it.  But I should also be free to point out it's incredibly stupid to design your deed so anyone can walk into it, and have access to all of your horses.  I mean...hello??

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Can you just chill a bit with the hyperbole and accusation and just talk to me like I'm a human being just like you please?

 

I'm getting a bit tired of you accusing anyone being objective on this subject as being thieves or pro-grifers.  If you keep this up, we'll have another thread locked I can assure you.

 

Of course he grieved her.  And no, that is not cool and I'm not supporting it.  But I should also be free to point out it's incredibly stupid to design your deed so anyone can walk into it, and have access to all of your horses.  I mean...hello??

 

Sorry.

 

Hint taken.  Out.

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Journeya,


 


I think you are mixing two separate issues into one concept, which weakens your position. These are a failure of players to use the protective game features available and other players who are purely out to upset (grief) other players.


 


If a player fails to take the proper precautions then they are to blame for the unpleasant results and must accept this responsibility, rather than go into denial about their lack of action; however, if they do take the proper preventative precautions available to protect themselves and are harassed by others, then those "griefers" doing this are clearly at fault.


 


As far as attempting to classify these types of situations as pvp, or not pure PvE as you would put it, that doesn't fit the pvp definition of being able to kill other players, which can not happen on PvE servers.


 


Yes, griefer types who destroy undeeded areas in an attempt to upset other players should be dealt with harshly by the GM's, even banned from the game after this pattern emerges in their behavior. On the other hand, those who do not protect their items with the tools available should not be pandered to with more game rules applied which make it impossible for them to be irresponsible.


 


I find Wurm to be a refreshing escape from the overzealous rules which within the outside world seem many times be there to protect people from making their own bad decisions. I would not be too fond to see Wurm go down this big Mother path of babysitting every possible mistake made by us poor Wurmanite children's.


 


=Ayes=


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Nobody here is saying that, chill.  And a new permissions system has already been announced to be "coming soon".  So it's not like the devs don't care.

 

 

She left a fence unlocked and her permissions were set wrong.  I feel terrible for what happened to her, but come on, that's not exactly a good example of the game being flawed.

 

 

Can you just chill a bit with the hyperbole and accusation and just talk to me like I'm a human being just like you please?

 

I'm getting a bit tired of you accusing anyone being objective on this subject as being thieves or pro-griefers.  If you keep this up, we'll have another thread locked I can assure you.

 

Of course he grieved her.  And no, that is not cool and I'm not supporting it.  But I should also be free to point out it's incredibly stupid to design your deed so anyone can walk into it, and have access to all of your horses.  I mean...hello??

She didn't leave a gate unlocked where 'anyone' could come in.  She trusted someone enough to allow them access to Tar which is generally seen as a community resource.  (If she had not allowed access then she could have been called a griefer herself by fencing off this resource.) Then that person trusted someone who took advantage of that trust to do their ass-hattery and used PVP as an excuse.

So she was not being 'incredibly stupid' the people she trusted are good upstanding members of the community who thought this person could be trusted as well.  The only 'incredibly stupid' person here is the griefer who is now ostracized on freedom.

(Unfortunately MR seems perfectly happy to provide him with all his needs for the rest of his Wurm life so this is only a minor annoyance for him.)

Also thinking of horses as 'citizens' is not something one would naturally do, many long time players do not even know this until too late.

Edited by Bachus
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I find Wurm to be a refreshing escape from the overzealous rules which within the outside world seem many times be there to protect people from making their own bad decisions. I would not be too fond to see Wurm go down this big Mother path of babysitting every possible mistake made by us poor Wurmanite children's.

 

I think Ayes is right here.

We don't need more rules and GM intervention. We just need clearer rules and permissions. (Which I believe are being worked on currently)

This is where Chaos has a great advantage. Due to the PvP aspect, griefers/thieves can be punished by the players themselves. On freedom, you're helpless after the fact.

 

As for Lorraine's case...that is very clear griefing and should be dealt with by the GM's. While it isn't a highway, blocking and building like that is clearly malicious behavior.

Edited by Outlaw
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Permissions need to be clear and  explain exactly what each option does. The contradictory situations should be removed. For example, assuming your not the owner of either you can not take from no-lock house but you can take from a no-lock large cart. No lock means no protections whatsoever. My goal is consistency and intuitive function. I know the no-lock thing I'm refer to makes will it easier for people to take things but exceptions make it confusing for players.


 


Once the lock is added, all permissions need to be default to owner only. The owner can further customized them to loosen up control.


 


I don't like that the devs won't make locks a construction requirement. I have my suspicions they don't want to deal the problems such a change would cause for PvP. But it is what it is. Hopefully the big red warning text about missing locks will suffice.


 


If we can't make locks a requirement, couldn't we block access to permission management if one is absent?

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She didn't leave a gate unlocked where 'anyone' could come in.  She trusted someone enough to allow them access to Tar which is generally seen as a community resource.  (If she had not allowed access then she could have been called a griefer herself by fencing off this resource.) Then that person trusted someone who took advantage of that trust to do their ass-hattery and used PVP as an excuse.

So she was not being 'incredibly stupid' the people she trusted are good upstanding members of the community who thought this person could be trusted as well.  The only 'incredibly stupid' person here is the griefer who is now ostracized on freedom.

(Unfortunately MR seems perfectly happy to provide him with all his needs for the rest of his Wurm life so this is only a minor annoyance for him.)

Also thinking of horses as 'citizens' is not something one would naturally do, many long time players do not even know this until too late.

 

 

I commend her for sharing a resource tile.  But if it was me, I would have at least made sure the tar was ALL they could get to.  And definitely not my horses.

 

I mean...come on.  Let's use some common sense please.  That's all I'm saying. 

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I commend her for sharing a resource tile.  But if it was me, I would have at least made sure the tar was ALL they could get to.  And definitely not my horses.

 

But what ARE the right settings? A person has to dig; they have to pick up stuff from the ground; they're gonna be on a cart or horseback, so they might need to lead; they have to get through the gates in this case or else walk very far out of the way; they might get attacked so they need to fight; they need to load up the tar... What saves the horses?

 

This deed is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. I just didn't picture it. But I don't care what anyone says, it's not ok to be such a jerk. Every single animal was killed.

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I'm confused as to what you mean. Can you give specific technical things you would want implemented to make it a "pure pve server"? Do you want it to be impossible for anyone to pick up an item if you drop it anywhere in the world? Do you want it to be impossible for anyone to cut down a tree you planted anywhere in the world?

 

Yet another lame response. Maybe next time you could use a little imagination in repeating the same tired tripe again and again. You are not confused, you just want to be able to take what is not yours. So go on, try and cloud the issue with the same rinse and repeat lame response.

 

Here, since you seem to have problems with ethics or morals try this on. If you take something that is on someone's deed it shouldn't be allowed if they don't want it to be regardless of what that object is that you want to swipe. If there's something off deed that has ownership then you shouldn't be able to take it like a large cart because it has ownership, i.e., it belongs to somebody because the examine window TELLS you who the owner is. If it isn't you then leave it the he** alone. For that matter tools can have names. If it's got a characters name on it you can't take it. Now, that wasn't so hard was it? Mkay? 

 

Oh, I forgot, the tree thing. If you stretch a little more you might finally reach Bizarro World. Get real.  Pure hyperbole.  :rolleyes:

Edited by Clatius

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Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)
Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others.
A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you.
B ) You may not call guards to kill penned animals on deeds you are not a citizen of. (They ain't hurting you)

 

Good to see Lorrainej  has been protected by the core of rules  PFFFTTT!!!  What a joke.

 
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1. If you are having a party and one of the 'guests' helps themselves to your valuables the police do not say "Sorry about your luck but you let him in.'

2. So you are saying that Wurm is totally lawless and deed upkeep is just a protection racket.

3. Not everyone wants to live in a prison of multiple layer walls never leaving their home for fear that something might get taken. If we did there would be no need for PVE servers at all and the population on PVE servers would not be 10 times that of PVP servers.

1. That is the definition of theft. If your guest walked off with it and police failed to find your guest again than it be excluded in insurance and the victim is blamed because no forced entry.

2. It is called "insurance" that your items on your deed are safe so as long as you take the necessary precautions.

3. Where did this come from? You have a deed you have permissions and tools available to you to stop what you deem as griefing.

Edited by demondan

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Deeds and permissions. The ultimate misnomer of protection that doesn't protect you at all.


 


 




http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/115969-tragedy-at-silent-hill/


 


There is theft. There is absolutely nothing we can do about it. The rules make it so.


 


In fact, the rule changes only emphasize people's mistrust of the volunteers as any retaliation against griefing is exponentially more likely to be moderated/punished than the griefing itself. You could do everything right, and you'll still be unprotected. Then when something does inevitably happen, you'll be blamed and shamed for a glitch, exploit or loophole that you 'should've known about' ahead of time. It's actually a very lousy way of doing things, and it denigrates greatly from Wurm's community, emphasizing and rewarding bad behavior. All because of some poorly designed game mechanics, (Shout out to Yellowfinger and the long dead and forgotten Rite of Spring community gatherings.) and the overbearing PvP interpretations on how things should be run on Freedom servers.


 


Simply put, Wurm's community is toxic, it's moderation is intentionally ineffectual and it's player-base is cynical because of it.


 


On a related note. Reading this thread kind of makes me shake my head at the irony. Why are there so many hardcore PvP'ers commenting on a predominantly PvE-only problem? Maybe Freedom should get it's own general discussion board where the PvP'ers who don't play on Freedom's PvE servers can't post. ;)




 


There are way too many PvP'ers posting in threads about PvE-only issues.


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I'm confused as to what you mean. Can you give specific technical things you would want implemented to make it a "pure pve server"? Do you want it to be impossible for anyone to pick up an item if you drop it anywhere in the world? Do you want it to be impossible for anyone to cut down a tree you planted anywhere in the world?

He wants single-player. Single player is the ONLY pure pve, as the moment there are other players present, conflict between players is possible.

What I think many people want is stricter moderation. As far as item theft and 'unfriendly behaviours' in game, personally I think it's at a fairly good place with the new permission system and warnings about locking that are coming. There should be no reason for you to lose stuff, unless you gave someone permission to take/modify it. 

As for behaviour on the forums and verbal ingame behavour, that seems at times to need a little more of a heavy touch from the mods, but then perhaps they take a couple days to get around to it, and by the time we forget, the person has been muted or warned? Overall, I try to just have faith in the moderating staff making the most reasonable call, even if it isn't the one we passionately feel is 'right'. 

Edited by Arronicus
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Well, the guys who are arguing harshly for not wanting people to get too much protection are obviously the people I want to stay away from. Thanks for making yourself known to the public ;)


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1. That is the definition of theft. If your guest walked off with it and police failed to find your guest again than it be excluded in insurance and the victim is blamed because no forced entry.

2. It is called "insurance" that your items on your deed are safe so as long as you take the necessary precautions.

3. Where did this come from? You have a deed you have permissions and tools available to you to stop what you deem as griefing.

1.  No insurance still pays even if you let the thief in as long as you did not know of their intentions beforehand.

2.  We are not talking about compensation for items but consequences of actions.

3.  No they don't there have been numerous times the griefers have found gaps in the permissions and exploited them. So a deed is not enough to protect everything you own.  Even walls are not enough some still remember 'fencegate' when the fences in Wurm malfunctioned and did not stop animals from escaping or people getting in.

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You are wrong but that is besides the point. The point is that victims are blamed. If you are arguing any thing else you can direct it towards someone else.

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Why am I writing this? Well, right now I am frankly upset because it just came to my attention that one of my neighbors actually left the game because of one of these douchebag players! (I currently have this emotionally unstable neighbor who has lashed out at my community constantly and whom the GMs told me to just ignore). 

 

Can you explain what crimes have been committed that you feel should lead to the removal or ban of this neighbour? It is clear that you feel the GMs should remove him for you, but you have not put any actual accusations on the table (except that he has a foul mouth).

Edited by Cista

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Stole a cart right in front of a villager (unlocked but the guy was there working with the hitched cart so it was a pure move), killed a horse underneath me when I had to afk for a second because of kids (he would have held on to the gear I am sure had I not have certain other evens work in my favor), the rest are "minor" but with obvious harassment intentions. Some I didn't bother to contact GM about. A neighbor had a cow die inside an unlocked pen (uncareful newbie) but no tracks, had a paved tile offdeed magically unpave, he took a lamp that was supposedly planted and planted it clear to see as a trophy at his deed for her to see. Came up to an unlocked cart that I was embarked on to move, I imagine he was hoping to kill those horses but since he couldnt he just got on the cart instead and just sat on the cart like a psycho till I kicked him off at a gate. I once asked he leave the oaks around the highway when he asked where to cut trees, when he decided to have a beef with me he cut down any oak he could find in the area since I guess he figured they were somehow sacred to me? not a big deal really, but shows he is just trying to do whatever he can to hurt us. That is NOT counting all the crazy stuff he has written, or when he was just KoSing everyone in local (perfectly "legal" but not very normal behavior :P). Accused me of stealing some stuff, never bothered to clarify WHAT it was, I imagine some low ql botanized that was left in a pile and decayed away? If anything he used to be my villager and I went over there and moved stuff from the ground into his FSB or BSBs to keep it from decaying on him -_- I probably forgot something.


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Am I getting this right, that the person used to be your villager? I am not sure I understand it right.

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