Posted July 10, 2015 Periodically pop up a window asking the player if they would like to run a tutorial of the permissions system. Maybe on a monthly basis, or every couple weeks. Then the bases are covered. "I didn't know I had to lock my cart" is answered with "did you click the ignore button on the permissions tutorial?" No, a thing you learn in design is that users don't read the manual, ever. And being able to answer them "did you read the instructions?" doesn't help. The problem isn't that people whine about being robbed, the problem is that they are being robbed. Adding a mandatory lock to the cart mats would help (etc. secure defaults for everything). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Adding a mandatory lock to the cart mats would help (etc. secure defaults for everything). That could be a good idea. It would lead to more immovable abandoned carts and rowboats in annoying places, but still might be worth it. Edited July 10, 2015 by Cista Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 LOL If they could kill a troll, maybe. If they can't even kill a troll, why would we buy more? They certainly can't kill players. And on PvE, everyone is your "friend" until you KoS them, unless you live by a road then you can't, and the guards don't attack people for trying to break your deed rules. PvP commenting on PvE issues is just like PvE commenting on PvP issues. That crap don't work here. I can have 50 of them and all 50 will stand and wave while the dirtbag kills my horses.EDIT: I know for a fact that 3 of them cannot kill a champion troll. I bought 3 of them on Xanadu two days after launch when I had a champion troll appear on my fully deeded island. It killed them about 6 times before they finally took it out. If I can expect that kind of performance for 3 silvers a month out them on a troll, that players kill all the time, how many do you really think it would take to stop a player who can kill a champion troll IF they are even on KoS when they start doing whatever they are doing?EDIT 2: I have a better idea. Sell me a "KEEP THE HELL OFF MY LAWN" sign for 20 silvers that teleports anyone not listed on it to the edge of the perimeter and charge me 5s a month to keep it. At least if I am going to waste 5s a month, it will be effective.This is pve, why don't you go help your guards ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Buy more guards. Stop being cheap This is pve, why don't you go help your guards ? Now, that kind of defeats the purpose of hiring guards if I have to go save them, hey? Why pay money to buy protection that I have to protect. It makes "quit being cheap" turn into "go flush money down the toilet." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Buy more guards for Kos.Help your guards for pve.To seperate statements addressing two different issues. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Buy more guards for Kos. What amount of nerfed PvE guards is enough for effective KOS experienced PvP griefer? 10, 20 or even more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Buy more guards for Kos.Help your guards for pve.To seperate statements addressing two different issues. This is a pve mostly issue, how it affects you?Why do you have to impose your own idea on the way the game is mean to played in an aspect you clearly don't enjoy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 This is a pve mostly issue, how it affects you? Why do you have to impose your own idea on the way the game is mean to played in an aspect you clearly don't enjoy? Because he's trolling, and trolling is a form of PvP (which he obviously enjoys). No point in responding to him unless you also enjoy the "game". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 The fundamental problem here is that no matter how you construct the permission system, without completely locking down the game world (to the point where it's effectively a collection of small single-player plots), there will always be asshats who will work to find the chinks and loopholes. Until we get proper AI, most of these situations need an actual person (with actual in-game authority) to come and make a judgement call. Rather than just falling back on "didn't set permissions properly, not strictly against the letter of the rules" as an excuse for doing nothing, GMs need to start actually enforcing the 'no griefing' rule. PvE in a multi-player environment inherently has to be firmly moderated, unless your game is so simple that property / item ownership isn't a thing. This isn't a problem unique to compute games, incidently - have a look at how welfare is handled in the real world. As much of the system is manual as possible, to give real people as many chances to catch the fakers as possible, but the criminals somehow still manage to game the system. An amazingly complex rules ('permissions') system doesn't stop the griefers, it just makes life harder for the vast majority who are trying to operate within the rules and get on with their lives. Ineffective and unbalanced moderation seems to be a recurring complaint in Wurm, which is a real pity, as the game has so much to offer. I don't have any solution to suggest, beyond the obvious "get more GMs and get them to actually enforce the griefing rules on Freedom"; that's been suggested plenty of times before, and it doesn't seem like anything's changed. In the real world, we have the police to (in theory) protect the citizenry from the bad elements; we need something like that in Wurm, because currently the GM team are more like the plumbers and repairmen who come around when your boiler explodes or your car won't start. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) How on Earth would changes in the permission system make that any different? Unless we make it so that we can not interact and share with any other player in the game. No thanks to that There are two issues that get hopelessly conflated in these pitchfork threads. The first issue is that when people fail in their judgment of "friends", or fall out with their neighbours, they blame the game and threaten with leaving. This has to stop - or they should just leave already, because they are hurting the game much more than the people that they have a conflict with did. The other - and unrelated - issue aired in these threads, is that some permission settings and some rules about what is griefing, are working contra-intuitively or are just hard to comprehend. Those are certainly game problems that has caused exploits to happen, and has caused good players to leave the game when they found that the rules were *****ing them over, and each of these problems are worth discussing and worked on by the devs. In fact, they have been good at adding more warning pop-ups, and more of that sort is coming too. on your second point... we agree. When I say "tighten up" the permissions system reworking and rewriting it so it's easier and more user friendly is a good deal of what I meant. The Permissions systems as they form a whole are confusing and lead to Players missing a step in securing their deeds that should not exist. But on the first part we see things differently. Yes People fall out of friendship with their friends, it happens, but just because that happens does not give excuse to anyone to stop using self control and become a thieving git. When I have a one of those days where I no longer get along with my neighbors I don't go grief them or kill their horses. That kind of behavior from a Player, in my opinion, shows me that they either can not or will not function in a civil manner in a setting like Wurm. It is not the responsibility of other Players to tolerate this one Player that throws a tantrum and kills 70 of his neighbors horses ... just because he can... it is the responsibility of that Player that threw the tantrum to grow up and treat other Players with some minimal amount of respect. Wurm might be a game, but it is also something much more and it does matter how we treat each other on all servers, even the PvE ones ruled by selfishness. The present "World" seems to favor forgiving the criminal and making everyone else adjust their way of living to accommodate the criminal, I don't buy into to that way of thinking for a second. I won't make excuses for those who fail to "play nice"... Punish the criminal decisively and leave the law abiding People alone. The Staff of Wurm could do just that and not have it lessen our freedom of choice or action ingame, I am certain of that. Rule following Players aren't hurting the game when they complain the rules need to be changed to curb bad behavior... if anyone is hurting the game it is the Players with the bad behavior. Edited July 10, 2015 by geode 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 I feel that there are two main issues, the first being the permissions system (which, even with the upcoming system will likely not address all issues as that's simply impossible) and the second being that the moderation pretty much does nothing against theft like this because over the years they've more and more taken an off hands approach to things, leaving these matters to the players themselves (at least that's my perception of things). Problem is that on PvE servers this hardly ever works, and as can be seen it often results in blaming the victim, as they could have done A, B and C in order to prevent the theft, even though there's nothing you can do to stop a trusted friend from stabbing you in the back and taking/killing whatever he wants, except for of course not trusting him, or anybody else for that matter. If that's the kind of community which the devs are trying to create then it doesn't surprise me that the player count continually drops because that's not a very healthy environment for PvE playerbase growth, such a thing only really works for PvP. If you ask me, what's needed is not a pure pve server as that wouldn't fix any of the above issues unless all player interaction is made impossible (in essence, single player Wurm). The new permissions system likely also won't fix most issues as somebody you trust could still stab you in the back, etc. I think it's going to require that the mods step up their game and hand out proper punishments ((temp)bans, etc) for anything to really change. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Yes. You're missing that even just joining an alliance, it can open you up to even more holes in this 'safe' system. We should all stay paranoid, afraid to leave our deeds because nothing is ever done about these situations. Or wait, we could just go to PvP, like they want us to. Or take our money elsewhere. Which the more I've seen them do nothing, and the more I read these threads, (Including that quickly deleted comment), the more I think it's for the best. I'm starting to really agree with some of these folks comments...this is a really toxic community, which is being supported by the 'cleaning brigade' that runs around hiding the messes/stopping people from actually talking about the issues, and sweeping them under the rug. There's only so much sweeping you can do before the rug can't be walked on anymore, and I think it's starting to bulge now. How so? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to specifically ALLOW alliance members access to your deed and structures? Honest question, I can't remember if that's on by default or not. Even if it is, that's still on you to properly manage permissions. However it seems I cannot discuss this without overly-emotional people accusing me of being "Pro-grifer" or some such nonsense. Too much extremism going on in here and not enough level headed discussion. I believe SirLaw was in the wrong and should be punished for griefing. However the incident was still preventable, and I shouldn't be harassed by pointing that out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Whatever the standard settings for an ally member are depends on the "flavour of the month" basically. They've changed the standard settings back and forth many times and sometimes completely unrelated updates toggle the checkboxes for no reason. You may think you know what the settings for your allies are but unless you check them regularly you really don't. I don't know how many times I've allowed for the same alliance member to be able to pass gates and yet the next time it's needed the darn checkbox is unchecked. It works the other way around too, unfortunately, sometimes granting allies more permissions than you've given them. The best way to handle it is to set specific settings for each alliance member deed (which is a mess in the current interface but will hopefully be better with the new one?) and have NO checkboxes checked in the standard "ally" settings. That way it's easier to see if something has checked itself during an update. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 I'm still not quite sure what a 'pure pve server' is, if freedom isn't already so.What exactly would a 'pure pve server' have that freedom currently does not? Outside of bugs/eploits, you cannot kill or steal from anyone as it is. (While it might have difficult to understand settings and terminology, once you have your things secured, they are secure) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 honestly, it's looking like JKH is more of a pve server at this point than the actual pve servers you go live on a mountain, literally no one from enemy kingdoms will ever bother you there, and if some kid comes along and griefs, KoS becomes a player mentality of the alliance toward the little idiot, not a mechanic of useless NPC guards yeah, pretty sad that a pvp server is a better pve server than an actual pve server... maybe Rolf should fix pve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 How so? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to specifically ALLOW alliance members access to your deed and structures? Honest question, I can't remember if that's on by default or not. Even if it is, that's still on you to properly manage permissions. However it seems I cannot discuss this without overly-emotional people accusing me of being "Pro-grifer" or some such nonsense. Too much extremism going on in here and not enough level headed discussion. I believe SirLaw was in the wrong and should be punished for griefing. However the incident was still preventable, and I shouldn't be harassed by pointing that out. If you have an alliance then do not give them any permissions at all then what is the point of having an alliance? So what you are really saying is do not ally with anyone or if you do make it pointless to be in where they will have no more permissions than the random passer-by just in case they might do something you don't want. = Never trust anyone build a prison and live in it yourself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Funny how a lot of the pro-thief pro-griefer clan are the same people who were against enclosure rules because it "made passage impossible EVERYWHERE!!!! PERIMETERS ON LOCKDOWN CAN'T MOVE 10 STEPS WITHOUT A WALL OR FENCE!!" Yet they promote the behavior that makes people wall off every single tile they own and then have to set up buffers to the buffers they set up for their buffers. Hypocrisy or idiocy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 If you have an alliance then do not give them any permissions at all then what is the point of having an alliance? So what you are really saying is do not ally with anyone or if you do make it pointless to be in where they will have no more permissions than the random passer-by just in case they might do something you don't want. = Never trust anyone build a prison and live in it yourself. Notice how on the Internet whenever someone says "So what you are saying", it's usually not even close to what someone was saying? Yeeeah...where did I say don't give anyone in your alliance any permissions at all? And please explain to me how restricting some access to certain areas on your deed completely renders being in an Alliance pointless? I'm in an Alliance and I don't have my part of the Village just wide open to all Alliance members. Apparently I should just up and quit the alliance because of that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Notice how on the Internet whenever someone says "So what you are saying", it's usually not even close to what someone was saying? Yeeeah...where did I say don't give anyone in your alliance any permissions at all? And please explain to me how restricting some access to certain areas on your deed completely renders being in an Alliance pointless? I'm in an Alliance and I don't have my part of the Village just wide open to all Alliance members. Apparently I should just up and quit the alliance because of that? You're reducing their arguments to pointless absurdities, and they are returning the favor. Kinda fun how that works, isn't it? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 You're reducing their arguments to pointless absurdities Example needed please. I've been very narrowly focused on this and haven't resorted to hyperbole like some others. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 How about we introduce Permission Decay. If you turn on permissions for allies citizens or non citizens, those permissions eventually revert to a total lockdown scenario. Maybe timer based after a week? How about permissions profiles that can check or uncheck miltiple settings in one shot, to restore the less secure settings you had before the weekly lockdown? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Example needed please. I've been very narrowly focused on this and haven't resorted to hyperbole like some others. You aren't using hyperbole, correct. You are using reductio ad absurdum. You also use argumentum ad passiones to get people to stop replying. You play dumb to make people who respond repeat over and over to you in ever simpler terms until you get back to reductio ad absurdum. You are doing to just about everyone in this thread what you complained I did to you. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 How about we introduce Permission Decay. If you turn on permissions for allies citizens or non citizens, those permissions eventually revert to a total lockdown scenario. Maybe timer based after a week? How about permissions profiles that can check or uncheck miltiple settings in one shot, to restore the less secure settings you had before the weekly lockdown? Not a bad notion. I can see how that would cause problems though in Villages where the Mayor goes on vacation for a while or takes a break. What I would love to see is to scrap the whole useless "track" system in favor of detailed logging. I should be able to pull up a list of who accessed what, and when. Who came though my gates and when. Who entered my structures and when. Etc etc It would help the GM's immensely in punishment and enforcing game rules. It would also give us, the community, the power of knowledge and the ability to name n' shame career griefers. There wouldn't be all this ambiguity about a players history that allows him to charm his way into Villages and Alliances so he can strike again and again. You would have a permanent concrete record following you wherever you went. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 INB4 'Would eat up too many resources.' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 10, 2015 Never going to happen because Rolf wants wurm to have pvp, he always has. That is why the game has been developed to allow for theft on the pve serversIts not about what we want, its about what Rolf wants.What we want is a just a side note. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
