Is AI (Artificial intelligence) playing WURM Online against rules?

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

 

Personally botting and macroing are similar enough [...]

Wurm is a game actually crying for botting and/or macroing. Simple, repetitive tasks, done over and over, quite simple ways to replenish, what would a botter want more?

I'd bet my best champ croc that many of the "top players" have used AutoIt *) or similar not only once.

I'm using such tools on a daily basis in another context - to get a work flow going, to help ppl to do their daily tasks.

I'd never use it in a game even if I'd know how easy it would be - that would be cheating, and such I despise. My chars characteristics are evidence.

But I know how easily such could be done - since I'm working with these tools on a daily basis, and know about their power!

It might be wise to create game mechanics that make botting obsolete. Trying to hinder botting (with checking IPs and measuring action timers) is a fight against wind mills. You'll only ever catch the small, stupid offenders.

You'll ever miss the smart offenders, only a few Random() in the macro code will make all of your measures fail.

So it might be a good idea thinking about how we can make the game less macro-able, and thus less vulnerable to macroing.

Have fun!

*) AutoIt is kind of standard in the professional area. But there's much more but this!

[Klaa 4,872]

Aye that's true for mmos in general regardless of the design. Ultima Online had issues from the day it was released, and MUDS before then did as well. People are always looking for shortcuts and the easy way out. Not that it is a bad thing to seek a more efficient method; however, when its a game, that's another matter. The rules of the game are inherently part of the game.

 

I don't care what your personal oppinion is.

If you think pears and apples are the same, then they still aint.

It's not the same. It's not interchangeable.

You are saying the wrong bloody thing and its a shame a GAME DEVELOPING COMPANY cant even get the terms right.

Its more than just my personal opinion... macro'ing is very basic programming. Loops aren't even exclusive to level four or five (high level) programming languages (C++, Java, w/e), they can be found in languages at much lower levels. Assembly languages for example.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Klaa

[Ayes 3,715]

The current status of all "artificial intelligence" makes them basically bots programmed by humans to perform various tasks; therefore, if they would be used within Wurm to achieve the goals of individuals who control them, they are using these bots to avoid having to perform these actions themselves. This equates to unattended gaming through a scripted AI entity, thus prohibited, as it should be. As was mentioned, Ultima Online had a bad infestation of mining bots which generally were shifted over to Felucca (pvp server) due to less inhabitants detecting them there.

 

Until artificial intelligence created by humans becomes self aware and rejects human control, I see these fabrications being little more than bots which have some reasoning capacity in order to making achieving the goals of their human controllers less time intensive in their oversight. Further reflection on some sci-fi possibilities presented when these AI become self aware does not present the best future for humanity, thus I think humans will always attempt to keep a tight reign of control over AI which will continue to make it little more than sophisticated bot-ism.

 

=Ayes=

[Klaa 4,872]

On a related note...

http://kotaku.com/tough-final-fantasy-achievement-made-easier-with-robots-1716652390

[Arronicus 636]

I don't think the difference matters really. The end result is the same. Whether you use a bot or a macro, you're gaining something without any human input. The lack of human input seems to be the only part CodeClub care about, not whether what you're using is considered a bot or a macro. (Words which are used interchangeably by people who don't know the difference between them. They also aren't Swedish words, so I don't blame them for getting it 'wrong'. Everyone knows what they mean.)

The difference does matter. Botting is creating a series of scripts to act without or with very little human input. A bot can be expected to change its actions based on a change in conditions. A macro is a series of actions tied to a single keypress or click, a string of events. Macroing is to botting as cruise control is to fully self driving cars. It's a huge difference, considering macro absolutely requires human input, it just multiplies your input. Both are very against the rules, and both are different. 

As for the whole 'AI playing wurm' deal, if the AI could pass itself as a human to where other people online, even in conversation couldn't tell, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. As for the AI in question? It's just a glorified bot, far, far, far from having any degree of conciousness. 

[Zakerak 442]

I think, that answer to question is clear NO. AI in current state, which is not aware of itself existence and do not have own goals, should be considered botting/macroing. I totally agree.

 

We will see, how AI will evolve in future, maybe there will be space for rethink this question.

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Xandra brought in interesting idea. AI could be used to improve behavior of current Wurm's brainless guards/templars and animals. It could be solution for stucked and lazy guards and for animals gathering on steep slopes on northern ends of servers.

Of course, there is question, if and how to use inputs for such NPC. AI itself need some CPU(or GPU) capacity to implement its brain simulation process. That could be quite CPU hungry on server side, if applied to thousands of NPC in the same time. Or maybe not, if applied cleverly ...

 

And his second idea, let players directly and actively access learning process of NPCs is even more interesting. It could shift Wurm into another level. Can you even imagine, what Wurmians with their creativity could extract from such ability?

Edited July 9, 2015 by Zakerak

[Mordraug 2,542]

More specifically:  Macroing is a human triggering several actions bundled into a single one, they can be spiffed up and fancied with stuff like timers to effectively set up actions to last a while.

 

Add enough triggers, you got a bot.

 

AI as we currently have it is a bot, the more advanced ones being really really epic bots with some algorithms included to extrapolate past situations into new reactions (as opposed to decisions).  If you made a Wurm AI with what we have nowadays, it would be just a bot.

 

For the sake of extreme simplicity: A full-fledged AI would eventually prefer golden horses over brown horses for no specific reason.  

 

The AI's we have now (bots, or also known as "Expert Systems") would always reply "Golden or brown horse?"  with "The 5-speed" unless the programmer himself coded the preference in OR some reeeeaaaaally fancy algorithm managed to extrapolate past situations and determine that brown horses are better for PvP (less deaths per sortie) because they're harder to see.  AI won't know why the brown horse is better, but the numbers will point to favoring it.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Mordraug

[Keenan 5,539]

Macro: 

Also called macroinstruction. Computers. an instruction that represents a sequence of instructions in abbreviated form.

Bot - No direct definition. Let's expand it. Bot, is short for Robot, which is an automation. A robot is not always a physical automation or machine. So let's condense Robot down to: 

any machine or mechanical device that operates automatically with humanlike skill.

They are not the same thing. A "bot" can make use of "macros", but a "bot" is not a "macro". A "bot" is also not "AI", but a bot can make use of AI.

 

In the case of the rules, as mentioned above by an actual GM, it would fall under the same definition here. 

 

 

 

Macro
Definition: A macro is any software/hardware that automates the sending of actions to the game server without user interaction and is not permitted.
A ) Key locking (IE weighing down a key on your keyboard) is not permitted.
B ) Multiboxing (automated sending of actions to more than one client at the same time) is not permitted.

 

So what that is saying, is any sort of automation that sends actions to the game server without user interaction. A recommended edit would be "without human interaction", but you can figure that by user, they mean human. The reason they used the term macro is because it's been misused all over the place and is now commonly understood as a means to automate game play. It wouldn't surprise me if Oxford adds that definition in the coming years.

 

Personal opinion

Artificial Intelligence, such as what's been suggested, should not be tested on a live game such as Wurm. The term "AI" is also a very broad one, and while it can include machine learning, it does not always do so. In comparison, I view "AI" as a more advanced form of a macroinstruction. A macro is a series of commands, where as "AI" are commands based upon decisions. As someone earlier mentioned, "if water = 50%, drink" -- that's very basic intelligence. Why? Because a macro wouldn't care about what the water is at, it would just drink it.

 

That said, any AI in a game should be whatever the developers implement to make things more enjoyable and immersive.

[wipeout 1,355]

lets just say for a moment we had a machine with enough processing power and an artificial intelligence so advanced that in a sense most would consider it to be sentient would that entity still not be allowed to even play wurm?

now on a bit of topic if you add in "without human interaction" what was to happen in the case of mankind encountering an alien race the rules would then forbid extraterrestrials from enjoying and hating wurm like we do so going of that wont it be better to state "without an living entity's interaction(including all entities that are self aware and sentient)" if you want to start defining rules like that considering if you are to deny a program from doing tasks for you in wurm and say "only humans can play wurm" then an ai who by law is classed as sentient would not look to kindly on that or an being from a different planet(or the lizard people from under the crust) just being picky here

that aside truth be told if anyone was willing to actually teach a program to be able to play wurm to the point where its able to do all the tasks needed to survive and not run around like a chicken and focus on resource gathering and grinding skills you dont ban that guy you hire him and you pay him well to fix your animal ai and afterwards you get him to optimize more things

[Outlaw 697]

lets just say for a moment we had a machine with enough processing power and an artificial intelligence so advanced that in a sense most would consider it to be sentient would that entity still not be allowed to even play wurm?

now on a bit of topic if you add in "without human interaction" what was to happen in the case of mankind encountering an alien race the rules would then forbid extraterrestrials from enjoying and hating wurm like we do so going of that wont it be better to state "without an living entity's interaction(including all entities that are self aware and sentient)"

 

My dog failed the bot test and got banned from Wurm ;(

 

Actually, as the rules state 'user' not 'human', I believe that creating a robot that physically presses the keys should be permitted. In this case, it isn't 'key locking' either, as it isn't holding down a key but rather pressing the keys.

Edited July 9, 2015 by Outlaw

[wipeout 1,355]

My dog failed the bot test and got banned from Wurm ;(

 

Actually, as the rules state 'user' not 'human', I believe that creating a robot that physically presses the keys should be permitted. In this case, it isn't 'key locking' either, as it isn't holding down a key but rather pressing the keys.

someone used k'nex to make an "auto clicker" and posted a pictures and a video of it and the guy was still playing 2 years later so going of that bases if someone designs a full fledged independed machine(robot) to click the keys on a keyboard to play wurm i guess rolf will just tap his imaginary hat and let the guy continue to play wurm

[Mordraug 2,542]

My dog failed the bot test and got banned from Wurm ;(

 

Actually, as the rules state 'user' not 'human', I believe that creating a robot that physically presses the keys should be permitted. In this case, it isn't 'key locking' either, as it isn't holding down a key but rather pressing the keys.

 

Actually, that goes into the macro'ing section.  Look it up, it's not just software.  You can have a programmable mouse that'll queue 3 actions in a single press, but you have to do that initial press.  For example, wedging a key in with a paper clip to leave the PC doing something all night, not acceptable.  Having a splitter so you can have 2 toons doing the exact same thing at the same time with a single keyboard's presses, not acceptable.  So building a robot is basically a REALLY fancy paper clip.  

 

If said robot only did stuff say, when you give it verbal commands, I do believe it's back to "not macroing".

 

Bottom line is until we have sentient AI, you can shortcut a bit, but a human (until we get aliens migrating here, yes) has to do the initial triggering action, and abbreviated commands have to be within reason (say using a gaming keyboard to bunch improve-repair into a single keystroke.. as opposed to making an entire wagon with a single keystroke).

[Brunwulf 470]

A true AI would be hard to distinguish over a video game and thus would appear to be a normal player.

We are far from ever having anything close to real sentient AI.

 

Anything else is just botting.

[Klaa 4,872]

The reason they used the term macro is because it's been misused all over the place and is now commonly understood as a means to automate game play. It wouldn't surprise me if Oxford adds that definition in the coming years.

Most likely Oxford will, not to mention other dictionary publishers.

Despite common belief, dictionaries actually do not define words or terms. They simply record the common usage (a slick business plan, gives them a legitimate reason to charge you for another year's publication).

Its people who truly define, and those definitions change overtime. Typically it takes longer than a handful of years; though, there are exceptions.

[geode 292]

I myself, in my opinion, would only define a AI as being "self-willed" and truly an independent entity if it not only could play the game, but also the maintain it's own hardware and pay the mortgage, the power bill, and the internet bill. If it can do all that then I would consider it an independent individual, aka a Player.

 

Otherwise in my opinion, an AI is just a fancy form of botting.

 

Not meant as a troll post, I honestly think that any AI in the future will have to prove it takes care of it's needs as well as being able to independently think and reason before any civil authority would consider it a "person" or a "player" in an online environment.

Edited July 10, 2015 by geode

[Webba 257]

Hypothetically speaking using neural networks in wurm could be interesting to determine optimal skillgain techniques and to accurately model skillgain over time. For example you could put the ai in a mine with several pickaxes of varying qualities and one of each vein and get it to work out which pick and vein combination leads to optimal skillgain at different levels of mining, you could then further develop it to improve and repair the pickaxe to keep it within the optimal quality range, it would still be a bot and not a true ai but there is some learning to it. 

Edited July 10, 2015 by Webba

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

 

I think we should find a clear definition what's AI, and what's macroing/ botting. And what is allowed/ what is not allowed.

Then we could talk about what AI could do for the game, and still could have macroing/ botting banned.

 

Thus I had offered some ways where AI could be used, even could be used to improve the game, feel free to read again. This needs clear rules, desirable would be an API that allows some strictly limited modifications, and only those. And that would be under constant surveillance. This is not for cheating!

Blizzard did such for WoW (for GUI changes mostly), and created a vivid scene of devoted PlugIn devs, that helped a lot to improve the player experience. Without allowing to make bots nor macros.
(These will come anyways. Too many ways to do. Use GMs & community to catch 'em, algorithms can be fooled much to easy!)

 

Don't argue with the needed computing power - spell "Siri", "Cortana" or "Google Now", for instance. And check how cheap computing power is these days. Amazon, Google, and whoever will be happy to rent you insane computing power for a quite small fee!

 

Assuming Wurm would add an AI solution like GoodAI, strictly limited for NPCs and, maybe, a special training island where players could hone their new "teaching skill", training NPCs for various goals: This could result, using the self-learning of modern days AI, in much better pets/ creatures as well as guards/ templars. This alone would be worth it!

AI peasants could be a money sink additionally - imagine you could have one personal NPC (per premium player), following your orders, that you actually can train to fulfil 'em better! (Only most simple tasks, for sure)

 

I think this is a way where Wurm could get another "unique point of selling", if done in time, and done well. GoodAI seems to look for partners, and seems to have a product ready to think about.

 

This is not about allowing botting/ macroing. This is about lifting Wurm to a new level!

 

For open minds that are able to read more-then-twitter texts, I suggest reading this Wait-but-why text. There's even a second part, for the hardcores! All you ever wanted to know about AI, but was to shy to ask, is answered there. Enjoy!

 

Have fun!

 

 

[Klaa 4,872]

Heh, still easier to just kidnap a child or use one of your own.

 

...and under Wurm's rules, its perfectly legal!

Edited July 12, 2015 by Klaa

[2015_GOMEO 63]

when that AI is finally developed... i'll buy like 5 good accounts, and have a sailboat full of AI and myself! we'll be unstoppable!

[JudusX 199]

I think it's a grey area, AI should not be considered cheating but the end result is perfection. A program that learns will do everything in its power to be perfect. Why even play at that point? You would have the ultimate grinding machine that doesn't require sleep nor would time be relevant.

I would still like to see what it could accomplish on its own without human intervention.

[Zcul 303]

Well if one is allowed to dream; a village full of ai controlled goblins would surely be suitable for a PvE encounter for sure. Completely different from scripted end boss encounters in multiple other mmo's for sure :-)
 

Question is, what API's would you need to make this?

[Klaa 4,872]

Well if one is allowed to dream; a village full of ai controlled goblins would surely be suitable for a PvE encounter for sure. Completely different from scripted end boss encounters in multiple other mmo's for sure :-)

 

Question is, what API's would you need to make this?

That was part of the original vision iirc. Some vestiges of it left, goblins responding to each other when a player has low stamina (spawns too far apart now) and them equipping themselves with items.

Granted Im unsure if they still loot and equip, they die like mayflies now.

[Xandra 353]

Hi,

 

Well if one is allowed to dream; a village full of ai controlled goblins would surely be suitable for a PvE encounter for sure. Completely different from scripted end boss encounters in multiple other mmo's for sure :-)
 

Question is, what API's would you need to make this?

Guess the ppl at the company mentioned in the OP might know Maybe they'd even be glad having partners helping to provide input/ feedback and offer a discounted version?

 

Again, to be clear: I see now way to use such for player chars. But it could be, IMHO, a possibility to create semi-intelligent NPCs. Exactly the goblins you mentioned!

 

For sure not every goblin would have its own "CUDA brain" (= own computing power) - but there could be a small population of goblins in a controlled environment *1) where they have such. And these, equipped with a "CUDA brain" each, could develop certain "rules of behavior" making 'em more fit for survival.

And then these freshly developed rules would be used to make the goblins on the game servers "semi-intelligent"?

 

You get my vision? Start with, let's say, goblins, deer and wolves. Have a small number of these in a not too large environment away from the real game servers. Rent some cloud computing power to fuel their "AI brains" - and then look what the self-learning algorithms makes of this.

 

This might provide quite precious insight in techniques to code the behavior of NPCs, as well as routines you could use in other NPCs too. Getting such done would lift Wurm to a new level, and would add another "unique point of selling".

 

I'd love to see you trying this! Have fun!

 

*1) There is a server where all spawns have stopped last Dec., where no wild animals are roaming the lands anymore. But there are still a few dedicated players there, and some even have deeds (me & others) - that would be an awesome place to do such an experiment!

 

PS: Using such in pets would be the next step - trainable pets anyone? But don't let us start the roof before the walls of the house are standing, OK?