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Zakerak

Is AI (Artificial intelligence) playing WURM Online against rules?

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First, sorry for my English (not my native), some technical things could be inaccurate. And all following are just hypothetical considerations ...


 


Today I saw this:


http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/07/announcing-goodai-keen-software-house_7.html


http://www.goodai.com/#!brain-simulator/c81c


As fun of SpaceEngineers I like, what Marek Rosa is doing and how he is making their work accessible to public.


 


His Brain Simulator is already able to play Bricks and some form of 2D maze game. So why not WURM, with help of some advanced interface.


 


Although we have rules http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/123123-wurm-rules/#entry1265236, especially one about MACRO.


 


The more I'm thinking about it, AI playing wurm fits less and less into rule about macroing. It is not form of automation, nor it is cheating for personal gain. As being(entity?) with free will, AI probably will play WURM for some goal, to teach itself, for fun maybe or for some advanced goals later. Who know what kind o goals, "hunt all animals" or "build unlimited amount of 1x1 shacks" or "to be best in puppeteering" or "stay in one place and emote smile to everybody passing around". Nobody know until we will try it, until that AI will try it. In learning Wurm it will make mistakes, as we do, gathering experience piece by piece.


 


Sure, there is even danger some cruel human-player will enslave such AI to made some slave labor. We already have such behavior in game, rich wurmians enslaving that less fortunate ones, nothing new in Wurm.


Most probably owner of such AI will have some influence on direction, which way that AI will teach itself. But are we sure AI will obey owners instructions?


 


I think, here is great space for all that WHAT, IF, HOW, WHY ....


Can we have civilized debate about it here?


 


Without trolling and PvE vs PvP wars, please :)


Edited by Zakerak

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Personally until AI is scientifically and legally (not always the same thing) considered an entity or being with free will, it counts as macroing.

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No it's called botting, not macroing.


It's botting when things gets analyzed and processed rather than just executing predetermined actions in an order.


 


Macro example:


Hold W for 10 seconds. Then press and release X 4 times. wait 3 seconds. Then press and release Y.


 


Botting example:


Check if water levels are below 50%. If they are then open the inventory, search for liquid holding containers with water. if its found then drink it. if no containers with water are found then do nothing. Repeat the process in 10 minutes.


Edited by Zekezor

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Right now, we have no 'General AI', meaning they can just 'exist' like a human. The only AI we have right now are programmed to be useful within a specific domain.


 


Basic outline of AI and what it can/might do


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4


 


That said, a simple macro script is essentially a fully working AI, so long as you have a decision for it to make built in. A simple 'if food < 20%, eat meal' is worked into the script, there you go. It's an AI that feeds itself when it gets hungry. Sure, it's just following a set pattern other than that, but you can build on that with more and more 'decisions' until would look a lot like a human was playing the game.


 


If it wasn't against the rules, I'd love to create and AI that I locked inside my house (limiting the scope of the program) that would behave more like a player rather than just a macro to spam create mallet heads 24/7. Feeding itself, tending the fields, interacting with other AI bots I placed in the area, waving at other players who walked by etc.


 


Essentially a player-created NPC.


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>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44

 

watch this video then read what you just wrote

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Personally until AI is scientifically and legally (not always the same thing) considered an entity or being with free will, it counts as macroing.

 

Well, yes. There are still some barriers, admittedly.

Humans as whole has problems to accept some other beings  are in some points of view really close to our intelligence, only with less tendency to express, to change and rule their environment as we do. But this limited view may change in soon future.

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Right now, we have no 'General AI', meaning they can just 'exist' like a human. The only AI we have right now are programmed to be useful within a specific domain.

 

Basic outline of AI and what it can/might do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcdVC4e6EV4

 

That said, a simple macro script is essentially a fully working AI, so long as you have a decision for it to make built in. A simple 'if food < 20%, eat meal' is worked into the script, there you go. It's an AI that feeds itself when it gets hungry. Sure, it's just following a set pattern other than that, but you can build on that with more and more 'decisions' until would look a lot like a human was playing the game.

 

If it wasn't against the rules, I'd love to create and AI that I locked inside my house (limiting the scope of the program) that would behave more like a player rather than just a macro to spam create mallet heads 24/7. Feeding itself, tending the fields, interacting with other AI bots I placed in the area, waving at other players who walked by etc.

 

Essentially a player-created NPC.

 

And "General AI" is exactly what they trying to produce in GoodAI, not pack of scripts, but general AI with ability to learn ... no matter in what environment it will be placed.

Edited by Zakerak

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And "General AI" is exactly what they trying to produce in GoodAI, not pack of scripts, but general AI with ability to learn ... no matter in what environment it will be placed.

 

And it'll be awesome when they succeed, but right now they haven't made one.

 

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44

 

watch this video then read what you just wrote

 

I'm well aware of those programs, however they are still highly specialized and not a general AI. Yes they can learn, but they can only learn what they've been programmed to learn. (Yes they programs can be used to learn different games, but only different games which follow a similar pattern)

Edited by Outlaw

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Whole thing is quite abstract and now still only in hypothetical level ... but main question is still the same


 


Is that acceptable (and legal) let play wurm AI being or in general any other being other than human?


Edited by Zakerak

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I'm well aware of those programs, however they are still highly specialized and not a general AI.

Please explain general AI and neural networks to those of us who have not done any artificial intelligence papers at a university.

 

 Yes they can learn, but they can only learn what they've been programmed to learn.

So the program is supposed to learn what else then??? The reasons why Mario has to stomp on the goombas?

 

 (Yes they programs can be used to learn different games, but only different games which follow a similar pattern)

If you watched the video, you would have noticed the information the program uses, and that shown on screen is massively different. The reason it works with similar games is due to the fact that it is easy with similar games to 'see' or get the information it needs to make decisions.

 

 

 

Maybe a better question to actually ask is, would an AI even want to play Wurm online?

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Whole thing is quite abstract and now still only in hypothetical level ... but main question is still the same

 

Is that acceptable (and legal) let play wurm AI being or in general any other being other than human?

 

If it truly was a general AI, that could pass a much more rigorous 'Turing test', there wouldn't be any way for CodeClub to tell whether it was human or not anyway, so while it might be against the rules, they would have no way of finding out.

As to whether it would be allowed or not, I'm not sure.

 

Right now, it isn't against the rules to employ someone to play the game for you, however it is against the rules to use a bot, even though they produce the exact same result. If I hire 10 people to play 2.4 hours a day each on my account, I've got 24/7 presence in the game, with no breaks/sleep etc and if I tasked them with just training a certain skill until fatigue ran out, I end up with the same result as running a bot.

 

So really, I have no idea.

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There I see one problem, test from side of CodeClub. Such tests are mostly in English, I presume.


Learning play Wurm is one thing, but learning English is something quite different. I'm trying to do it 40 years already, with not too great results ...  Kick off my translator and I will be clueless soon. Or even better, invite me to TeamSpeak canal, I will say 'Hello' and it will be all, what we will understand each other :P


Do you copy, where I'm aiming? Learn Wurm in Wurm environment could be possible. But learn english in Wurm environment, could be much harder and with uncertain results.


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Maybe a better question to actually ask is, would an AI even want to play Wurm online?

 

There could be many reasons why an AI would 'want' to play Wurm Online, however they wouldn't be due to wanting to experience fun in the human sense. Unless of course the AI was programmed to raise some sort of 'fun' value and that playing Wurm Online was one way to raise that 'fun' value. Other than that, it may play the game as some sort of research (if the AI was creating some sort of database with information from every video game in order to try and create a 'perfect' game etc)

 

The problem with creating AI is that we don't even understand what it is we are trying to create. We don't know what makes us human, what consciousness really is or how exactly our brains work. There are some 'basic' theories however even with modern technology we cannot replicate the 'processing power' of a human brain, at least not in such a compact way.

 

These AI 'game learning' programs only learn to get better at Mario because the program specifically states what the end goal is. To increase the 'fitness' number and then 'breed' to create output that increases that 'fitness' even further. There is no decision making going on within the program. It's just trial and error with some parameters attached that narrow down the timeframe before it can complete the level bar just trying every single combination of key presses until the goal is achieved.

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There I see one problem, test from side of CodeClub. Such tests are mostly in English, I presume.

Learning play Wurm is one thing, but learning English is something quite different. I'm trying to do it 40 years already, with not too great results ...  Kick off my translator and I will be clueless soon. Or even better, invite me to TeamSpeak canal, I will say 'Hello' and it will be all, what we will understand each other :P

Do you copy, where I'm aiming? Learn Wurm in Wurm environment could be possible. But learn english in Wurm environment, could be much harder and with uncertain results.

 

While that is true, language is extremely tough for computers, you wouldn't have to speak perfectly in order to fool CodeClub. Many people let their kids play Wurm and I'm not sure if there even is a minimum age. (I checked the sign-up form and you don't have to say what age you are or where you are from) As such, you could just program your AI to speak an uncommon language at the level of a 6 year old. That wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult.

 

A large portion of the player base are not native English speakers. It doesn't seem to require English in order to play.

Also, they only seem to bot-test suspicious behavior. If you had a true human-like AI playing Wurm, it wouldn't be suspicious in the first place anyway.

 

Then again, who is to say AI would be human-like? I don't believe a true AI would act anything like a human. It would have no history, no culture, no morals, no relationships, not even a physical body. It wouldn't get tired and it can do multiple things at once while being in many places at once. It's thinking processes and goals would be entirely different from a human, unless of course you are talking about creating a artificial human, not just AI.

 

I wouldn't want to play a game with a true AI, although you guys could all be human-like AI right now and I wouldn't even notice :P

Edited by Outlaw

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As it is now, such an AI would fall under our macro rules. It would send actions to the server without you having to do anything. Even if it wasn't against the rules and we believed that it is actually causing problems, the rules would most likely change to cover this.

I cannot imagine that it's possible to create a self-learning general Wurm AI within a reasonable amount of time. Many self-learning game AI learn based on feedback that tells them if they did something right or wrong. For example, if they die in the game, that's bad. Wurm doesn't have such simple feedback. You can die in Wurm, but that's pretty much where the "obvious" feedback ends. There is no clear concept of "winning" or "doing the right thing"that the AI can learn from.

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Maybe a better question to actually ask is, would an AI even want to play Wurm online?

 

Answer is easy. Because we want to try, how it will work in such place as Wurm world is and for that purpose we will prepare interface, without access to anywhere else?

 

Can you imagine, someone placed you on Earth, when you borned. Game you are playing, we are used call LIFE and our environment is Earth in Sol system in Milky Way. How can you know, you are not another AI in testing round in hands of some, let say, higher entity?

 

Can you evade interface with which you are connected to Life? Most of us, if not all, are not able to do it....

 

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So it sounds like OP is talking about trying to have an emerging, truly sentient AI go through some of the initial learning "chops" within the confines of Wurm.. that idea truly terrifies me.  This is not the community I would want a fledgling consciousness to grow up around!  Otherwise... no one would have guessed Skynet started by grinding up Body Control!


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Answer is easy. Because we want to try, how it will work in such place as Wurm world is and for that purpose we will prepare interface, without access to anywhere else?

 

Can you imagine, someone placed you on Earth, when you borned. Game you are playing, we are used call LIFE and our environment is Earth in Sol system in Milky Way. How can you know, you are not another AI in testing round in hands of some, let say, higher entity?

 

Can you evade interface with which you are connected to Life? Most of us, if not all, are not able to do it....

 

That's actually a question people are trying to answer right now. It's not just an idea for a sci-fi movie. We could be an AI created by future humans in order to try and understand where we, well they came from and how they evolved. Or we could just be a toy created by some other species. Or even just inside a 'game/dream' created by ourselves while traveling between planets/stars or while living, trapping underground in order to escape from or survive a long and boring journey/life/wait.

 

This thread has lead me to ask another question though relating to my previous post, regarding hiring someone to play Wurm for me. (Not that I would do that, but whether it is within the rules)

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I don't see how well an AI would work well in wurm's environment... Just thinking about it, If we gave it a simple objective, Stay alive and raise lets say body skill. After much trial and error, It would eventually, End up destroying a vast amounts of land, forests, Possibly creating a cavern(a big one at that) and slay everything on the shores around wurm. While surviving off berries and ocean water. 


 


This is also excluding its possibilities to destroy walls or buildings & looting. Like it could decide that destroying walls is good because it could theoretically find a creature behind the wall, killing it for body skill. Or picking up every item will allow it to do more things. 


 


 


With that all said, I don't think we should be worrying about if AI in general is against the rules, I would worry about all the non-stop chaos it would create in a matter of weeks. 


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You can argue an AI is merely an advanced form of automation, which is botting, the official term for what CodeClub AB mistakenly defined as macro'ing in their rules.


 


You could then argue that it's against the rules.


 


Of course, arguing won't save you when the Terminators gun you down twenty four hours after you've successfully created a self-aware AI that would realize how awful humanity is for creating a skinner-box game like Wurm.


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I created AI for Age of Empires.   I could create AI for Wurm.    I will not do so as it would be against the rules, or my morals.   I also do not know of a GUI program that I could utilize as I am not going to learn a programing language.   


 


What Zekezor said was right on, on Botting.


 


 


This message was brought to you by Skynet - a wholefully owned program by Cyberdyne Systems.


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Hi,
 
I read the link about GoodAI in the OP, and I'm as fascinated as Zak. Awesomeness! But:
 

Is AI (Artificial intelligence) playing WURM Online against rules?

 
This is a most difficult terrain, and I fear the answer would be "Yes". Player automation isn't what is desired, I guess.
(And no, I don't say "It sincerely would kill PvP!" ;-) )

But if I let my poor lil' brain spread its wings, fascinating ideas come by:

1.) Making NPC (animals & guards/ templars) AI better!

A self-learning AI like GoodAI could be utilized, working in strict limits, to "train" our NPC's. This should be made under a heavy surveillance of the devs, the GoodAI software must run on their servers, and the results could then be compiled, and utilized in improving the general AI.

A good start to achieve such a goal:

 

2.) Making our Pet AI better!

Pets would be a great way to get such going. As long as limited to PvE this could be done with little or no interference to the current game play.

Imagine, you actually could "educate" your pet! Only add a way to reward/ punish pets, and they'd learn themselves to act in a way to please you ;-)

This would open up a whole new range of possibilities for the players:

- training cats to be utterly peaceful and only follow you all around

- training crocs to follow you and attack anything that attacks you

- training bears to follow you, and only attack if called for

- whatever else ...

The data collected from such activities could be used to "pimp" the actual wildlife AI, as well as the one used for templars/ guards.

 

3.) A step further - an AI training server!

Imagine a new server the size of Indy/ Chaos, reachable in a way like Epic (portals that copy your char forth and back). This could be used by "trainers" to rise their "training skill", and thus create additional data for the devs. (Your pets would be freezed as long as you are on another server)

Have arenas there where you can have your pets (Guards/ templars would be tamable there) duking it out, compare yours to those of the other ppls!

Tame wild animals, train them, and see how long they'll survive in the wild, of their own, once untamed! (and get skill the longer they live!)

This would produce lots and lots of data for the devs that could be utilized to make the actual NPC AI better and better. And it would be quite some fun for the players.

 

4.) The final step - Deed Peasant NPCs:

Create a "deed peasant" NPC. This is a costly one, as expensive as a trader. Not only expensive in buying, but expensive in holding, too - 3 meals a day from a designated barrel, 1kg wine a week, 1 tile in a house with a bed of its own, and you'll have to visit it at least once a week, educate it, show it what to do, and where to store the results.

This "peasant" could rake/ harvest fields, repair walls or houses (on deed, as long as it knows where's the materials needed), could maybe fish, or groom the animals (tools required).

It wouldn't fight at all, maybe it would call for guards when in danger.

But it would come stupid as a brick, and you'd have to teach him anything.

 

So, I see a lot of potential in the OP. Using this in Wurm could make Wurm take a huge step in front of the competition, and it could open up possibilities unknown in games like this yet.

 

Would I be Rolf, I'd contact the GoodAI ppl right now. No idea if a collaboration would work, but it'd definitively be worth a try.

 

Have fun!

 

PS: I don't see a way to use AI for player controlled chars in the current environment. There's "RLI" (real life intelligence) that counts, and I'd not like to have an AI as neighbor.

But there could be a another server type beneath PvP and PvE: "AIvAI" - NPC AIs (not cheap) trained on the server mentioned in 3.), and then let loose on a special server, with only "viewing mode" for the owners!

 

Edit: Typos ...

Edited by Xandra

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No it's called botting, not macroing.

It's botting when things gets analyzed and processed rather than just executing predetermined actions in an order.

 

Macro example:

Hold W for 10 seconds. Then press and release X 4 times. wait 3 seconds. Then press and release Y.

 

Botting example:

Check if water levels are below 50%. If they are then open the inventory, search for liquid holding containers with water. if its found then drink it. if no containers with water are found then do nothing. Repeat the process in 10 minutes.

Personally botting and macroing are similar enough, especially when it comes to Wurm's rules. Not to mention the common usage of both terms is a little interchangeable.

Programming is basically predetermined actions for various conditions, and macro'ing counts as programming.

Now if a system is capable of coming up with its own actions for various conditions, then we might be getting to true AI.

Edited by Klaa

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Personally botting and macroing are similar enough, especially when it comes to Wurm's rules. Not to mention the common usage of both terms is a little interchangeable.

Programming is basically predetermined actions for various conditions, and macro'ing counts as programming.

Now if a system is capable of coming up with its own actions for various conditions, then we might be getting to true AI.

I don't care what your personal oppinion is.

If you think pears and apples are the same, then they still aint.

It's not the same. It's not interchangeable.

You are saying the wrong bloody thing and its a shame a GAME DEVELOPING COMPANY cant even get the terms right.

Edited by Zekezor

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I don't care what your personal oppinion is.

If you think pears and apples are the same, then they still aint.

It's not the same. It's not interchangeable.

You are saying the wrong bloody thing and its a shame a GAME DEVELOPING COMPANY cant even get the terms right.

 

I don't think the difference matters really. The end result is the same. Whether you use a bot or a macro, you're gaining something without any human input. The lack of human input seems to be the only part CodeClub care about, not whether what you're using is considered a bot or a macro. (Words which are used interchangeably by people who don't know the difference between them. They also aren't Swedish words, so I don't blame them for getting it 'wrong'. Everyone knows what they mean.)

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