SirLaw - tell us all why you killed all my horses

[JakeRivers 2,921]

To slay all those horses was a terrible thing to do on a PVE server, would anyone do this even on a PVP server? This really opened my eyes on deed permissions and all the holes they are filled with if left at the default settings.

 

Those horses may just be pixels to some, but I have gotten attached to mine.

 

 

[Huntar 1,692]

He also was on freedom at the time, that makes him part of the freedom kingdom 

 

Yet his actions still represent the Kingdom he invests in, MR, the lot of you have already acknowledged him as a responsible member of MR.

 

Numerous people will see this as a MR's responsibility, just as numerous unique slaying snipes have been attributed to JK and MR in the past. It's all community perspective and whether your chief/fellow kingdom mates like it or not, the community is who they'll have to appeal to, because one action from a single member of your kingdom can ruin your entire kingdom's reputation.

 

No kingdom will ever have a perfect reputation because of the community's perspective.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Huntar

[Audrel 2,223]

Speaking of permissions, is it true that if the non-citizen role settings had said that strangers could not Attack Non-citizens, that he would not have been able to kill every single horse? And if every one was branded, would they have been considered citizens, and then have been safe if Attack Citizens was not checked off?

 

What happens now is, on every deed I own, I will go and un-check "Attack non-citizens," which I usually DO check off because I figure if some poor soul is running by with a troll after them, they need to be able to kill it. So now passers-by can't defend themselves, and there are fences around almost every deed. Not this one though, and look what happened.

 

Exactly, Lorraine. Best keep running. You are not allowed to defend yourself on my deeds so this doesn't happen to me. I will gladly dump your corpse in the perimeter for you.

[Bachus 462]

Exactly, Lorraine. Best keep running. You are not allowed to defend yourself on my deeds so this doesn't happen to me. I will gladly dump your corpse in the perimeter for you.

  As it has been mentioned you are always allowed to defend yourself from a mob that attacks you.  But even this can be used by unscrupulous people to kill your aggro animals like bears and hellhorses if you do not keep them locked up.

 

  Also the permission system is not easy to understand sometimes even the Dev.s do not know what box effects what such as I was trying to help one grow their hedges with wild growth and it took several times of trial and error to figure it out.

[Audrel 2,223]

As for if this is legal or not, I feel that it should be brought up to higher authority than us here on the thread so far. I'm always a bit torn about these things as I hate the "softening" of a game by way of adding restrictions and removing consequences. On the other hand, as pointed out in other threads, there are no consequences available for the doers of these actions. KoS does little to nothing. The only outlet people on Freedom have is a forum post and a shaming, which does a fat load of good really.

 

That's it in a nutshell, Keenan. There are no consequences on PvE at all. Even a Freedomer can kill off 5 guards and a templar without ever honing skills on PvP. Then add the fact that if a highway is nearby, you don't even have the option to send the mosquitoes to harass them as the highways are lawless by decree.

[Audrel 2,223]

  As it has been mentioned you are always allowed to defend yourself from a mob that attacks you.  But even this can be used by unscrupulous people to kill your aggro animals like bears and hellhorses if you do not keep them locked up.

 

  Also the permission system is not easy to understand sometimes even the Dev.s do not know what box effects what such as I was trying to help one grow their hedges with wild growth and it took several times of trial and error to figure it out.

 

At one time, the only fences on my deed were to keep my horses in. Most of them were not even locked. You could target non-citizens. You could forage, cut old trees, and fish. The mine didn't have doors. There were even "safezones" made so you could duck in from mobs and heal yourself if needed. All that is gone, long gone. The entire deed except for a 1 lane road at the water is walled in, locked off, and has 3 levels of gates in some places where we keep our breeders. You have no permissions to do anything at all except cross it as fast as your feet/horse can take you.

 

That is what I learned about "community" in my 2 years playing.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Audrel

[Lisabet 1,016]

Speaking of permissions, is it true that if the non-citizen role settings had said that strangers could not Attack Non-citizens, that he would not have been able to kill every single horse? And if every one was branded, would they have been considered citizens, and then have been safe if Attack Citizens was not checked off?

 

What happens now is, on every deed I own, I will go and un-check "Attack non-citizens," which I usually DO check off because I figure if some poor soul is running by with a troll after them, they need to be able to kill it. So now passers-by can't defend themselves, and there are fences around almost every deed. Not this one though, and look what happened.

Lorraine, unfortunately I just finished testing this on the test server; even branded animals can be attacked with non citizens allowed

Edited July 6, 2015 by Lisabet

[Audrel 2,223]

Most likely "weapon skill"

 

Blame the victim? its a few dead horses not ###### culture we're talking about here.

 

If your horses are in a position to be legally killed on freedom then it's your own fault, there is no way to sugar coat that. There are always gonna be douches who will go out to ruin your day for no reason other than because they can.  Protect it or lose it might seem harsh but that's what you have to do.

 

Did you miss the part where he was in the alliance? Why have one if you can't trust the people in it with more than you would the strangers of the world?

 

Corrected: He was not. Meh. I thought Cecci and Lorriane were in the same alliance. haha

Edited July 6, 2015 by Audrel

[Cornchips 3,037]

 

People on Chaos, you wonder why many PvE players don't want to come join your PvP - it's the company you keep.

 

 

 

 

Making a broad generalized statement because of one person's actions is obviously going in the right direction

[LorraineJ 1,099]

It's hard for me to see blame with a particular group, when it was the act of one individual. I would have greatly appreciated if his friends had talked him out of it, but ultimately they could not control him. I think what is really needed is for people to know there will be repercussions for this kind of griefing. Player groups can't really do that. He kept repeating in local he knew he could do this and have nothing happen. If a person's own conscience doesn't stop them from nasty acts, there has to be some form of protection by the structure around them.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Making a broad generalized statement because of one person's actions is obviously going in the right direction

 

Sorry. I didn't quote most of what he was spouting as he did this.

 

Sirlaw> cuz if im gona do somethinc i dont want you guys complainign

Sirlaw> im killing stuff

Sirlaw> so if none of your deed im gona kill everything

 

Sirlaw> well im abit of a ashole

Sirlaw> if its not frendlys i will take advantage

 

Sirlaw> if this was chaoes nobody would care about setting so im kinda been teached to follow that way

Sirlaw> well but if setting are done liek dat i cna do what ever and not get in trouble

Sirlaw> worst case cenaryow i will be permanantly on chaoes when obody gives a flying

Sirlaw> im a mean person i aint gona change

Sirlaw> im not gona change

Sirlaw> pvp made me who i am

 

Sirlaw> go to chaoes and say that

Sirlaw> people there are allready lauthing form what you said

 

 

(People there are already laughing from what you said)

[Tpikol 1,057]

real problem its that many people still believes that thing about wurm having a great comunity,which was never true,it has a horrible comunity with some good people.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Sidenote:

 

Deed falls, stuff in the open is "salvage" .. may as well grab it .. sounds a bit cruel but if you don't grab it someone who doesn't care or didn't know that it's a brand new fresh disband will grab it.

 

If buildings are falling apart, that person's long gone so yes, "salvage".

 

I totally agree about salvaging abandoned stuff. That's one of the most fun things to do on Wurm. Also, if he had asked me for some horses, I would have given him some immediately. He just killed every last one, didn't even leave two to pull a cart. That's a nasty thing to do to someone just for the hell of it.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

 Also the permission system is not easy to understand sometimes even the Dev.s do not know what box effects what such as I was trying to help one grow their hedges with wild growth and it took several times of trial and error to figure it out.

 

PLEASE tell us how you managed to do wild growth on someone else's hedges! I have never been able to do this with a character from one deed onto a different deed.

[Audrel 2,223]

Sirlaw> if this was chaoes nobody would care about setting so im kinda been teached to follow that way

Sirlaw> well but if setting are done liek dat i cna do what ever and not get in trouble

Sirlaw> worst case cenaryow i will be permanantly on chaoes when obody gives a flying ######

Sirlaw> im a mean person i aint gona change

Sirlaw> im not gona change

Sirlaw> pvp made me who i am

 

That's the whole problem here. It's not Chaos. It's not PvP. When people like this guy from from Chaos to here, they need to leave this crap at the border crossing. What you do there is PvP. It's what there was made for. This was made for not PvP and if you can't abide by it, don't come over. Period.

 

The best is "PvP made me who I am." Something to be quite proud of but I think you got it backwards. PvP enables you to be the you already are.

[Huntar 1,692]

That's the whole problem here. It's not Chaos. It's not PvP. When people like this guy from from Chaos to here, they need to leave this crap at the border crossing. What you do there is PvP. It's what there was made for. This was made for not PvP and if you can't abide by it, don't come over. Period.

 

The best is "PvP made me who I am." Something to be quite proud of but I think you got it backwards. PvP enables you to be the ###### you already are.

 

There's a severe lack of sportsmanship on PvP, some individuals are far better at handling it than most, but PvP should be absolutely no exception to this kind of behavior. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Huntar

[Lotus1 315]

If it were my choice, I'd have him suffer somehow on Chaos from his own kingdom, especially if his kingdom doesn't condone such behaviour.

[Kyleshandra 205]

The thing that bothers me is that I know this guys name from somewhere/something and I can't remember it for the life of me...

Has he been shamed in other threads maybe?

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

His last moment of infamy was in the thread about allowing players to make characters in other colors than "white." He had a comment about making black alts with racist names to work in his cotton fields.  

Edited July 7, 2015 by Brash_Endeavors

[Huntar 1,692]

If it were my choice, I'd have him suffer somehow on Chaos from his own kingdom, especially if his kingdom doesn't condone such behaviour.

 

They don't condone it, but they certainly won't punish it.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

They don't condone it, but they certainly won't punish it.

 

Condone means tolerate, or to allow behavior that is offensive/immoral.

 

They say they won't tolerate it but apparently they rather meant to say, that they do not approve of  his behavior. 

 

If a business or government says it does not condone certain behavior by employees, it means they fire them or otherwise discipline them. They DON'T tolerate it. 

 

However they probably got used to seeing it in evening news and thinking it meant, to not approve of, as in "we don't think this is very cool, and wish to distance ourselves from it."

Edited July 7, 2015 by Brash_Endeavors

[aamanus 1,488]

"approve or sanction (something), especially with reluctance."

 

My wording is correct.

 

As for how this was handled internally, it's not a matter of public business.  Are you asking that we publicly flog him? 

 

Companies that discipline their employees, in most cases, also do not publicise the details of it unless it is beneficial to the company and not in a breach of any of said employee's rights.

 

But we are not a company, nor a government.  We are a group of people playing a game.

 

Huntar, please.  Take your KvK driven drivel out of here.  Or do you need another paddling?

[Kyleshandra 205]

So this guy is a piece of work all the way around... I wonder if I remember the name from my brief time on Epic...

Edited July 7, 2015 by Kyleshandra

[Huntar 1,692]

Condone means tolerate, or to allow behavior that is offensive/immoral.

 

They say they won't tolerate it but apparently they rather meant to say, that they do not approve of  his behavior. 

 

If a business or government says it does not condone certain behavior by employees, it means they fire them or otherwise discipline them. They DON'T tolerate it. 

 

However they probably got used to seeing it in evening news and thinking it meant, to not approve of, as in "we don't think this is very cool."

 

The point is: they aren't going to punish it, despite them saying they don't condone it. He'll get a slap on the wrist and everyone will sit there laughing afterwards.

 

Their kingdom mates have already made attempts to distance this away from their kingdom, stating that the kingdom isn't responsible for it, he doesn't represent the kingdom, and whatever happens on freedom is freedom's problem.

 

He also was on freedom at the time, that makes him part of the freedom kingdom 

 

 

His kingdom affiliation has no relevance.

 

We do not condone this activity.

 

It's all just damage control, though they say they don't condone or approve, they really don't care. As far as they're concerned, this doesn't involve their kingdom, nor should it involve that individual's position in their kingdom.

 

 

 

Huntar, please.  Take your KvK driven drivel out of here.  Or do you need another paddling?

 

My kingdom isn't perfect, nor is yours, as I mentioned in my previous post. Everyone makes mistakes, however as it's understand, from both my time in MR aswell as JK, it isn't much of their problem, as it doesn't affect them directly save for maybe a few recruitment issues. Each kingdom has that one player that represents them poorly, whether the kingdom likes it or not, there will always be players who will say "I will never join X because X is in it" or "X is a scum kingdom because X did this over on our server." But to my knowledge, rarely have these players been ousted from the kingdoms because of how they play on freedom.

 

These actions will always be pinned to the kingdoms they're apart of, because it's a community perspective of who they think those players represent.  This has nothing to do with my kingdom or yours, I know there are many people in my kingdom that several of my freedom buddies dislike, some in other kingdoms aswell. This isn't isolated to one kingdom, it's just how the community perceives the representation of players and the kingdoms they're involved in.

 

I don't believe Sirlaw will receive severe punishment save for a talk to with a few players, nor do I think he will stop. However, more power to Red and yourself if either of you take action to remedy the situation IE contacting the victim and offering more than a sorry, because that would already be more than what most would do.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Huntar

[Fairyshine 3,183]

  As it has been mentioned you are always allowed to defend yourself from a mob that attacks you.  But even this can be used by unscrupulous people to kill your aggro animals like bears and hellhorses if you do not keep them locked up.

 

  Also the permission system is not easy to understand sometimes even the Dev.s do not know what box effects what such as I was trying to help one grow their hedges with wild growth and it took several times of trial and error to figure it out.

 

...and even if you have them locked up (see this thread), a passing priest can cast spells on them which goes over locked gates and fences, if they happen to be close enough to the edge of your deed...despite having no attacking of non citizens on deeds as a deed setting.  So now you have to build tall walls all around your aggro pet enclosures on a PvE server, to protect them. You have to play with a "community" with constant distrust and reservation. You have to think like the idiot who may potentially do something you clearly did not want them to do near or on your deed. You have to lock everything, moor and lock ships, be careful with the settings on writs and mine doors and ships and carts, not allow travelers passing gates, allow no highways, surround yourself with rings of fences and tall walls, and not build bridges which lead into houses as mobs can pass through locked doors right into your house. And you have to pay for all of this in the hopes that some of your stuff will be safe from the whims of (insert whatever word you want here).  And if something still happens to cause you harm or loss or lose your skills, you are told here in forums that you made the mistake, misinterpreted the settings, trusted the wrong person or even "just too bad so sad, now put on some plate and deal with it".  It all comes down to you being at fault somehow, to have brought this on yourself.

 

Deed it or lose it is a bunch of nonsense, and only works as intended if nobody with a mind for doing evil passes close enough to test the settings on your deed, or your resilience, or your patience, on your deed.  Sad thing is the stuff we have to "help" us identify them, are useless too (tracking, KoS, making forum threads to name and shame them...) If the game does not get idiot proof settings to protect what we pay for, the people who are honest and relying on and paying for in built protections, will always be the losing side.

 

As for MR having to take responsibility for his actions, just look at any classroom in a school or any big crowd watching a soccer game or any place where individuals act up despite being part of a bigger group, to see that no group expectations can make an individual behave appropriately.  Peer pressure may have some effect, as may isolation and rejection, but there is always that one kid and his cronies who will do whatever they feel they can get away with. Sirlaw is using PvP as the scapegoat for his behaviour, but in fact he is a bully and a griefer who probably acts like the typical (insert whatever word you want here) in PvP and real life also.