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LorraineJ

SirLaw - tell us all why you killed all my horses

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In this case, I think he's actually enjoying the attention... sometimes the shaming threads are exactly what the person is after. Attention, good or bad. That's another reason I was asking for a lock - because it was spiraling out, because he won't post his reasons, and because this is just feeds into the whole of it.

 

This is just so hard to imagine. Being happy to have your friends unhappy with your actions.

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In this case, I think he's actually enjoying the attention... sometimes the shaming threads are exactly what the person is after. Attention, good or bad. That's another reason I was asking for a lock - because it was spiraling out, because he won't post his reasons, and because this is just feeds into the whole of it.

 

Sorry but that's utter and complete ######. The whole "you're giving him what he wants" talk is just a technique to get people to stop pointing out the flaws in an obvious wrongdoing by scaring them into believing they're part of the problem for doing so. You might've meant well with what you said, I don't know and I don't care, but what you told her to do is wrong. You don't tell someone that the best course of action when being wronged is to turn the other cheek as to not "feed the troll". What the guy who killed 70 horses wants is completely irrelevant, LorraineJ's feelings and her loss is what matters and she shouldn't take her griefer into consideration when fighting for her justice or warning others from being exposed to the same thing by not doing this or that since it might be what he wants.

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Also! It seems like there are some PvP issues folks want to sort out - it would be great if you make another thread for it, before this one gets closed - don't you want to know if there ever is any result to the ticket I put in? I'd want to know if I read all this.

 

 

 

Can we please keep this on track to the OP, this is not pertaining to PVP but FREEDOM affairs, Thank you.

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This is just my view as someone who's been a leader figure in kingdoms before.  Your people represent you, your villagers are an extension of your reputation, and how they act reflects the conduct of how your kingdom acts.  Regardless if you like that or not, if it's another server or not, association is association.  In Mongols/JKE we had one rule - you exploit, you cheat, you macro -- you're out, no questions, don't return.  You may not be able to control everyone's actions, but you can certainly choose to distance yourself from it, and break ties.  


 


It's always going to reflect badly for MR unless you say you don't approve of such behavior, but words only go so far. 


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Players like SirLaw should be banned, and the banning announced from top management, and stickied.

 

It's not for retribution, retribution would look different.  Banning, announcement by top brass, and making sure the consequence to such action is remembered is just good business.

 

You let one individual behave like this, that one individual can cause players to leave before you have any indication they planned to quit.  Most will not post, or say anything, they will just figure this is not how they want to spend time after work and they will move on.  Adults playing PvE are not in it for the drama or aggravation.  On the contrary.

 

You let one individual behave like this, and further let all his little friends believe the consequences are a cakewalk?  Best to get ahead of these things, not for the sake of morality, but for the effect these sorts of things can have on business from one of your primary demographics.

 

Lorraine... You've been remarkably calm and collected through all this.  Far more than I could ever be.  Deli has some truly great folks on it.  Was my first home, so I know you are in good hands for the recovery. ;)

 

I couldn't agree more about the setting down of the rules, and that this behavior damages the business.

 

As far as me being calm, I was lucky it was that deed and not my best horses. Fortunately he didn't find those, I did have the gates open for that tar. Also, I've been through much worse on this game, that's why I b-i-t-c-h.

Edited by LorraineJ

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Sorry but that's utter and complete ######. The whole "you're giving him what he wants" talk is just a technique to get people to stop pointing out the flaws in an obvious wrongdoing by scaring them into believing they're part of the problem for doing so. You might've meant well with what you said, I don't know and I don't care, but what you told her to do is wrong. You don't tell someone that the best course of action when being wronged is to turn the other cheek as to not "feed the troll". What the guy who killed 70 horses wants is completely irrelevant, LorraineJ's feelings and her loss is what matters and she shouldn't take her griefer into consideration when fighting for her justice or warning others from being exposed to the same thing by not doing this or that since it might be what he wants.

 

I was simply stating the facts as I know them, Aeris. You did not have to attack me in such a way.

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Thing is, I did check it with an alt couple months ago; branded horses were protected from being attacked, when "attacking citizens" was disallowed, and "attacking non-citizens" was allowed. My bad I didn't check it again before posting, but anyway.

 

So another ninja change in mechanics directly involving the protection of deed assets, that's when it's not an outright bug messing them up.  Yet some people still have the nerve to jump into these threads and defend the thieves... pathetic.

 

The saddest part is that if OP (or anyone griefed) retaliates in any way or form, say destroying the guy's perimeter, it won't take GM's 2 seconds to pull out the "griefer" red card, while Sirlaw's actions are most likely being "carefully analized" (which translates into: "He'll be given a cookie and a hug").

 

It's not just the mechanics protecting thieves and griefers' PvP actions on PvE servers against retaliation, it's the staff and its handling of the pseudo-rules Wurm has.  Even more pathetic.

 

 

You're not supposed to spend more money on the game than you accept to lose for any reason. 

 

Guess he meant more than just bugs.

Edited by Mordraug
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 We  have only played a little over a month now and only tossed 150 - 200$ in the game atm, so If retaliation resulted in a banning, then I would just consider it a sign that wurm wasn't for us.  Granted I would have probably left anyway if the gm's didn't resolve the issue in what I considered a fair way.  i am sorry for your loss, and glad you atleast have your better horses.  May the greifer get an std or two.


 


Now to go brand my animals and change my settings....


Edited by Maledictam
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Yes I did mean that it seemed like personal squabbles were coming out. Not that they don't have some interest - I have no idea what goes on in the PvP servers and the breadth of it sort of stuns me, I don't even feel like I'm playing the same game. But OMG yes, I would utterly love it if there was some kind of edict that the PvP groups could make, that they don't tolerate their less enlightened members running over to PvE to get their yayas out. It would be better for the game, and even better for PvP because then us "carebears" would have a better impression of the players on PvP, and even maybe dip a toe in one of these days.


 


But again, the real enforcements have to come through the game itself.


 


Here is a quote from the Wilhelm/Baynes I Ching:


 


"Penalties are the individual applications of the law. The laws specify the penalties. Clarity prevails when mild and severe penalties are clearly differentiated, according to the nature of the crimes. This is symbolized by the clarity of lightning. The law is strengthened by a just application of penalties. This is symbolized by the terror of thunder. This clarity and severity have the effect of instilling respect; it is not that the penalties are ends in themselves. The obstructions in the social life of man increase when there is lack of clarity in the penal codes and slackness in executing them. The only way to strengthen the law is to make it clear and to make penalties certain and swift."


Edited by LorraineJ
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Lorraine, I am sorry for your loss. There are bad eggs in every game, and it is how both the community and the devs react to them that makes the game evolve, both for the good and for the bad.


Edited by Saviina
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So another ninja change in mechanics directly involving the protection of deed assets, that's when it's not an outright bug messing them up.  Yet some people still have the nerve to jump into these threads and defend the thieves... pathetic.

 

The saddest part is that if OP (or anyone griefed) retaliates in any way or form, say destroying the guy's perimeter, it won't take GM's 2 seconds to pull out the "griefer" red card, while Sirlaw's actions are most likely being "carefully analized" (which translates into: "He'll be given a cookie and a hug").

 

It's not just the mechanics protecting thieves and griefers' PvP actions on PvE servers against retaliation, it's the staff and its handling of the pseudo-rules Wurm has.  Even more pathetic.

 

 

 

Guess he meant more than just bugs.

 

 

I can personally attest to this as well.  I have a jerk of a neighbor who terrorized the entire area for weeks (and continues to do so, albeit to a lesser degree).  When the community decided to take action because the GM's wouldn't do anything to help, we erected a wall on our shared perimeter to separate the jerk from myself.  It took all of 30 minutes before we had 4 GM's in local and we all get threatened with a ban if we continued the wall.  I don't blame the GM's per say because I think they were operating under the rules Code Club set for Freedom but even a 12 year old running a private Minecraft server can see the difference between intentional griefing and a person just playing in their own sandbox. 

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These kinds of topics should never be locked but instead they need to be showcased. No one can learn from history if the history is locked up somewhere.


The way I see it, all the chaos debate here is not derailing, as the guy was from chaos and he was talking about chaos while he did it.


 


Also if someone feels that they are not comfortable reading this topic, then please do not read this topic...


 


It helps no one and would only cultivate this type of behavior even further if this topic would become locked because then in time it will become forgotten. At this point this thread acts as a showcase of clear griefing case, showcases an individual that needs social justice applied to him, but also acts as a warning to others thinking it would be "fun" to try this sort of behavior on freedom, where there are no 'consequences'


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I see posts have already been disappearing in here...guess it's more of the same all over again.


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PLEASE tell us how you managed to do wild growth on someone else's hedges! I have never been able to do this with a character from one deed onto a different deed.

Sorry it seems to have gotten broken again with the deed permission updates a while back. ;(

But at the time it was the 'cut young trees' one combined with 'building'.

I believe it will be fixed in the next update though and hopefully the permissions will be more clear as to what they actually do, that would solve a lot of headaches for both players and GM's.

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This is just my view as someone who's been a leader figure in kingdoms before.  Your people represent you, your villagers are an extension of your reputation, and how they act reflects the conduct of how your kingdom acts.  Regardless if you like that or not, if it's another server or not, association is association.  In Mongols/JKE we had one rule - you exploit, you cheat, you macro -- you're out, no questions, don't return.  You may not be able to control everyone's actions, but you can certainly choose to distance yourself from it, and break ties.  

 

It's always going to reflect badly for MR unless you say you don't approve of such behavior, but words only go so far. 

 

Leave it up to the kingdom leadership, trust me they aren't happy about this situation either.    Honestly though more than a few, including myself are willing to offer our services, to help rebuild or help recompense any damages represented.    In the end though it's our decision, and thank you very much we will deal with it. (and believe me I'll give him a pice of my mind myself next time I see him too)  

 

In this case Sirlaw didn't break any rules, he played within the parameters of the game.  And since I can't recall anything this silly happening before, I don't think anyone bothered trying to make some sort of blanket rule just to keep PvP players from taking advantage of PvE player's mistakes.    

 

Kicking someone out of a PvP kingdom and losing a fighter due to actions on freedom makes little sense, especially when the OP decides to play the whole "name and shame" game, instead of talking directly to our leadership, that by itself it almost guarenteed to make Chaos players angry, especially when the OP triest to lump us all into a group rather than recognizing that we are individuals, that make our own decisions.

 

Yes, it's a "PR nightmare" but honestly, there is a different mentality between the two servers.  It doesn't give our players any excuse to mess with Freedom deeds, but we are PvP players.  Hell I don't think the same way as many freedom players, I admit it does make me twitch when names pop into my local, and I tend to look at any... "abandoned" property off deed as fair game.     A few years ago, when I first started on Wurm I may have indeed done the same thing Sirlaw did, though knowing many players on freedom and having many friends there and a reputation to maintain now, I would never do it.    It is defiantly not worth the headache.    

 

Much of the griping in here has nothing to do with what happened, its an excuse to try and play up the whole Freedom vs Chaos, thing and it's sickening.   While we do play differently, we still play the dang game, most of the interactions I've been a part of on Freedom have been positive, with a few exceptions that had nothing to do with Chaos, and more to do with local bickering between alliances.    

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The calibre of a man is exposed by his actions when he thinks he can get away with them.


 


The question MR leadership shouldn't be asking is, "Why should we lose a fighter with working knowledge of how we fight over this situation?"


 


The question MR leadership should be asking is, "Are we next?"


 


The question other leaders should be asking is, "Can we trust him, if MR decides to drop him?"


 


Another fun question MR could ask is, "Why don't we 'let him go', and have him spy on our enemies?"


 


Subterfuge is fun.


Edited by Dairuka

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The calibre of a man is exposed by his actions when he thinks he can get away with them.

 

 

Yea, true.   I recently had to fire one of my ARK server admins, as he decided to abuse his powers despite knowing what would happen.    You don't know what a person will do, you can only make sure they have predictable consequences.   

 

In this case however, I don't think trying to form a lynch mob will be effective, especially if you start to piss off the people that want to help.    Just KOS him, and let his mates, help you replace what was lost, in their own ways.  If you read the posts in here, all the MR that have posted want to help.  It's in our best interests to make sure we sove this issue.    

 

 

The question MR leadership shouldn't be asking is, "Why should we lose a fighter with working knowledge of how we fight over this situation?"

 

The question MR leadership should be asking is, "Are we next?"

 

The question other leaders should be asking is, "Can we trust him, if MR decides to drop him?"

 

Another fun question MR could ask is, "Why don't we 'let him go', and have him spy on our enemies?"

 

Subterfuge is fun.

 

So basicly... your assumption is that because we don't want to lose a fighter, especially over an incident on Freedom, it's because we care more about what he knows than about losing a friend, not be cause he stole anything from MR, not because he was a traitor, or any of the things we KKL players over, but because of an incident involving dead horses on a separate server and an irate freedom player?   

 

facepalm.jpg

 

Wurm... you are so silly...

Edited by Battlepaw

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No one is saying all Chaos people are bad, I have several friends and guildmates over there in different kingdoms that would never do anything like this.  Also most of the posts from PVP'rs in this thread have been against Sirlaw's actions.  


 


The OP was not the one that brought Chaos into it, Sirlaw did that by using PVP as an excuse for his Ass-hattery!


 


You say that He has brought you into a PR nightmare but you cannot afford to lose even one fighter?


I say you will lose a lot more fighters both from not wanting to come to your kingdom and possibly some already with you wanting to distance themselves from this and the possibility of more incidents like this.


Yes I know PVP people see things differently but many of the PVP people do business on Freedom as well and this hurts their reputation and business there.


godfather.jpg


So you would be better off letting him go for your own sakes in the long run.

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Sirlaw knows a lot of kingdom secrets I assume, kicking him out would server MR -vely as he would tell all their secrets to the enemy. 
But still i think if they don't kick him out, they lose more possible recruits who might join MR in future. Thats just my 2 cents on the issue. Can't keep everyone happy in this world.

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As an MR I think it doesn't matter what players do on other servers within the rules (no hacking and macroing pls). Bugs are a grey area and the responsibility of the devs.


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Tell me, all of you that keep making this about the kingdom and about Chaos:


 


If you had a villager that, for whatever reason, decided to grief someone known to play in MR on Chaos, how would you react? If my kingdom came to you and said that you should kick this offender from your village immediately, in spite of all the hard work they have done for you in the past, would you do it? Would you simply look at this person and say, "I know you've provided me with countless free resources and labor and have never caused us any problems internally in the past, but those people over there are mad at you, so you have to go."


 


Or would you be more reserved and careful?


 


This is why I keep saying this thread needs to be closed. The OP was looking for Sirlaw's reasoning, and he won't share it here. Now it keeps cycling between shameful KvK/PvP mud-slinging and the standard PvE/PvP arguments and bashing that always seems to happen when our two play styles clash. Sirlaw only mentioned Chaos because he knew it would make you angry. I mean it's one of the easiest ways to tick off a Freedom Isles player! You don't even need to kill 70 horses! Do any action that is normally considered unfriendly on Freedom and then tell the person you're doing it because you're from Chaos or because they're care bears and watch the hate flow.


 


My posts have been pleas to everyone to realize that we're giving a griefer just what he wants, and I've been attacked for that. If you really feel for Lorraine, or if you disagree with what Sirlaw did, then do something about it and stop dropping to his level by keeping this thread as full of hate as it is.


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Archived for posterity. Many don't recognize it yet, but this thread will make for some comedy gold in the near future.


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Sirlaw: I can do whatever I like and there is NOTHING any of you can do to stop me. And I will keep doing this as much as I feel like it. 

 

Supporters: He is right, we all know it is impossible to grief or steal or misbehave on Freedom so anything he CAN do, no one can stop him 

 

Enki: Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others.
Punishment: You may be given a directive, warned, or even banned based on the situation.

 

Enki:  You may hear us use the term "Toxic" players in the future.  This will be for those that simply cannot be salvaged from their own negative behavior and negative influence on the game and community.  These sort of cases will always be heavily vetted by the team, as we do not take any of these cases lightly and strive to do our best with the tools we have.

 

 

 

 

 

Now,  if it is impossible for people to ever steal, grief or act maliciously, then Enki certainly does not have to tell them to not grief and he in fact is out of line suggesting he CAN do that.

 

 

Because the only rule is "do whatever you feel like."  It's a sandbox so your ability to be a malicious and obnoxious bastard is limited only by your own imagination.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Archived for posterity. Many don't recognize it yet, but this thread will make for some comedy gold in the near future.

 

Every time we get into one of these Chaos vs Freedom topics, for whatever retarded reason it happens to be that week, it should be added to the to the Freedom vs PvP skirmish section of the forums.    

 

At least if it's put there we would be being honest with ourselves.   

 

giphy.gif

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Every time we get into one of these Chaos vs Freedom topics, for whatever retarded reason it happens to be that week, it should be added to the to the Freedom vs PvP skirmish section of the forums.    

 

At least if it's put there we would be being honest with ourselves.   

 

giphy.gif

 

Cute picture. Although I don't actually remember arguing PvP vs PvE in this thread. Feel free to quote me.

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