Should Theft Be Allowed

[Ascorbic 265]

If you are going to allow theft, there needs to be a player run criminal system.  Like player commits crime they get crime points and at a certain level of crime points they will  be attack-able by players.  Or players can capture them and send them to jail or court.  Maybe something similar along the lines of Archage.  Their criminal system was a lot of fun.

[Woof 23]

game is boring with no adversity imo but if people want to deal with theft, there are plenty of pvp server options.

 

obviously there is a market for number-riser simulator.  I don't see any need to change anything.  

[RomaN 890]

Voted yes, it should be allowed. Rules are already in place to protect against things like lockpicking. Furthermore, there are existing game mechanics that protect players against theft on freedom already.


A few years back, I planted a deed on Exodus with some friends. Next to our village was a decaying house that was once a deed but had been disbanded by upkeep long before we even arrived to the server.

Most of the house had already been looted by people passing by and the only things left were bits and pieces and some building materials.

We helped ourselves to whatever scraps were left.

A few weeks later, the owners came back. Apparently they had been trapped on Epic. They accused us of stealing their stuff and this sparked an ongoing feud which lasted several months where they had tried to deed around our village, cut us off from land access to the rest of the server and tunnel around us. It got escalated to Enki who after a month of mediating eventually ruled in our favour, disbanded their blocking deed and resolved the issues we were having.

At what point did we become thieves? Simply for picking up something from a decayed house belonging to a player who seemingly appeared to have quit the game.

The amount of time and resources that went into resolving our issue should not be repeated hence why theft protection should be enforced by game mechanics rather than a GM ruling.

Deed it, secure it, or risk losing it. That is the way it should be.

[conmcb25 378]

There is no theft.

 

On deed on Freedom everything can be locked down.

 

Off deed, if its not in your possession it isn't yours.

 

Its simple really.

[Aariez 87]

There is no theft.

 

On deed on Freedom everything can be locked down.

 

Off deed, if its not in your possession it isn't yours.

 

Its simple really.

Ok .... so if someone takes something off your deed, is that not considered theft either?  Referring to the other thread, regardless of how he was able to do it, someone managed to take something out of someone's deed and then claim it as their own because it wasn't locked.  How can you possibly say as a reasonable human being that the cart was not stolen off the deed?

 

I can sort of understand the twisted logic that many have about theft off-deed, but the fact remains if something explicitly belonging to a deed holder is on-deed and is then removed from the deed without the consent of the deed holder, how can it be called anything other than theft?!

[Klaa 4,872]

Personally theft is best left to pvp servers (its just more fun), and thieves on pve servers are just cowards plain and simple.

However, it becomes difficult to determine where to draw the line between salvaging-of-abandoned and outright thievery. Not something straight forward that can be hard-coded; though, there are hard-coded protections in place for the more blatant forms of thievery: complete writs, deeds, locks, permissions, etc. Not to mention GMs handling the cases that defy easy Boolean logic.

Still it should be fairly straight forward to judge, for example, if a cart full of stuff (with no decay on anything) was abandoned or not.

Whether or not I would still take the stuff is another matter...

 

"Of course that writ was abandoned, see the damage and missing walls... that I catapulted down"

[Bachus 462]

You have the KOS if you know who stole your items, but usually people don't know who the thief is.. so locking your items is the option to go for.. There is no way for the devs to implement something that will not leave out a gray area that is open to subjective debate for each individual case..

 

Yes locking everything that can be picked up, hiring spirit templars, kos'ing everyone you do not know in local will still not keep your items safe because you would also have to be in the game 24/7 to monitor the KOS list to amke sure that no new person walked up that knew some exploit to pick things up you thought were safe.  KOS only covers things on your deed if you know the name of the person and after they have already stolen from and then only if you do not have a highway going through your deed so you would have to re-route that first.

Basically you would have to construct a prison for yourself to keep thieves out.

I've played this game for 3 years or so, on PvP and PvE, and I've only ever had my things "stolen" once - and it was my fault that they were stolen.

 

I didn't make a post, poll, or demand retribution and justice. Why?

 

Because I know what game I'm playing. This is Wurm, not your average themepark game. This is a game where stupidity has consequences, and yes - not using a lock is rather stupid. What, do you want to ban aggressive creatures as well? Because they didn't stop first to ask permission to attack and kill you? Or would you like all of your items to follow you around when you die, and how about your skills too?

 

'If you don't like a game with consequences, then ____ play Wurm Online.'

 

'This all that needs to be changed.'

There I fixed it because we are asking that there be consequences were you are advocating that thievery should have none.

If an aggro animal attacks you then you can kill it.  But someone can steal from you on a PVE server right in front of you and you cannot do anything about it.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Bachus

[Audrel 2,223]

There is no theft.

 

On deed on Freedom everything can be locked down.

 

Off deed, if its not in your possession it isn't yours.

 

Its simple really.

 

The thread that sparked this poll was indeed a cart on deed that was dragged off and looted. It was not locked because it was thought, as I gather how he worded it, that since it was on deed, it could not be hitched to or dragged off. That's vague gray area, the gray area that was removed with the new "Deed It or Lose It" removal of Legal Enclosures. If it is on an active deed, locked or not, it should not be able to be taken unless permissions are set to allow it. There is indeed theft when people know not to remove items from deeds on Freedom.

 

Easiest way to secure your deed. 1 single gatehouse into a walled off area - the tallest walls you can make now that we have gummybear physics.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Audrel

[Klaa 4,872]

Also eighty percent of Wurm players are thieves, the other twenty just haven't been caught yet.

[Clatius 455]

I've played this game for 3 years or so, on PvP and PvE, and I've only ever had my things "stolen" once - and it was my fault that they were stolen.

 

I didn't make a post, poll, or demand retribution and justice. Why?

 

Because I know what game I'm playing. This is Wurm, not your average themepark game. This is a game where stupidity has consequences, and yes - not using a lock is rather stupid. What, do you want to ban aggressive creatures as well? Because they didn't stop first to ask permission to attack and kill you? Or would you like all of your items to follow you around when you die, and how about your skills too?

 

If you don't like a game with consequences, then don't play Wurm Online.

 

That is all that needs to be changed.

 

That's rich. So you held a gun to their head and FORCED them to take your stuff. 

[Clatius 455]

There is no theft.

 

On deed on Freedom everything can be locked down.

 

Off deed, if its not in your possession it isn't yours.

 

Its simple really.

 

Wow dude. This coming from a community assistant. So you are saying that no one has ever taken anything that did not belong to them? Then there are several liars in this forum. 

 

Hope to he** you never become a GM.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Clatius

[Keenan 5,539]

That's rich. So you held a gun to their head and FORCED them to take your stuff. 

 

?

 

 

Why is it necessary to start insulting the victims of theft in these threads? Especially when it's obvious this discussion is happening right now because of a recent incident that was not caused by stupidity or negligence, but rather a lack of understanding of the undocumented and invisible game mechanics. You guys are just being rude.

 

I think these mechanics have been very well documented, even before I edited this page here. There is no excuse for not being informed. The tutorial even explains it rather well.

 

 

Yes locking everything that can be picked up, hiring spirit templars, kos'ing everyone you do not know in local will still not keep your items safe because you would also have to be in the game 24/7 to monitor the KOS list to amke sure that no new person walked up that knew some exploit to pick things up you thought were safe.  KOS only covers things on your deed if you know the name of the person and after they have already stolen from and then only if you do not have a highway going through your deed so you would have to re-route that first.

Basically you would have to construct a prison for yourself to keep thieves out.

There I fixed it because we are asking that there be consequences were you are advocating that thievery should have none.

If an aggro animal attacks you then you can kill it.  But someone can steal from you on a PVE server right in front of you and you cannot do anything about it.

 

You didn't fix anything. You simply put my words out of their original context. Thievery has a consequence - reputation. I'm not against shaming threads. 

 

There's no need to picket for more code (and possibly bugs) when some simple usage of current mechanics solve your issues. I really wish I could pick locks on Freedom, as the TWO abandoned large carts off my deed would be mine by now. But that isn't how Freedom work, and unfortunately for me those owners knew about locking their carts.

If you want consequences and code, rally for more player options to deal with thieves. Rally for stronger templars on Freedom so that KoS is worth something. Rally for archery towers and turrets that actually work against said KoS'd players. What about a newer feature, where having a templar alerts Twitter or the deed history when players enter and leave the deed?

If someone wishes to play as a scoundrel, that should be their right. And don't you try to tell me "that belongs on PvP" - because it doesn't exist on PvP. This is certainly a PvE ONLY problem, and as someone who plays equally on both... I don't want to see play limited because a few people can't be bothered to use the mechanics that are there.

[Bachus 462]

?

 

 

 

I think these mechanics have been very well documented, even before I edited this page here. There is no excuse for not being informed. The tutorial even explains it rather well.

 

 

 

You didn't fix anything. You simply put my words out of their original context. Thievery has a consequence - reputation. I'm not against shaming threads. 

 

There's no need to picket for more code (and possibly bugs) when some simple usage of current mechanics solve your issues. I really wish I could pick locks on Freedom, as the TWO abandoned large carts off my deed would be mine by now. But that isn't how Freedom work, and unfortunately for me those owners knew about locking their carts.

If you want consequences and code, rally for more player options to deal with thieves. Rally for stronger templars on Freedom so that KoS is worth something. Rally for archery towers and turrets that actually work against said KoS'd players. What about a newer feature, where having a templar alerts Twitter or the deed history when players enter and leave the deed?

If someone wishes to play as a scoundrel, that should be their right. And don't you try to tell me "that belongs on PvP" - because it doesn't exist on PvP. This is certainly a PvE ONLY problem, and as someone who plays equally on both... I don't want to see play limited because a few people can't be bothered to use the mechanics that are there.

 

So like I said you are for putting the players in prison and letting the thieves roam free.

[Reylaark 1,100]

Should theft be allowed on PvE servers?

No.

Simple answer to a simple question.  Why must everyone over-complicate this?  Where in that question is there a request for change or code?  It's a simple question, it only needs a simple answer.

What is 1+1?

hmm, well, I mean, are we talking binary or decimal?  Are they two discrete units that cannot be combined?  Cuz, you know, 1+1 could equal 1 but just a bigger 1 than the individual 1's heretofore mentioned.  Is it raining out at the time of addition?

 

In your opinion is theft greifing?

Don't care.  My vote on question #1 means I don't need to devote any thought to this question.

[joedobo 1,187]

More code to make the game work the way people expect it to please.

 

Theft shouldn't be allowed. But I have some issues with what exactly is theft. Salvaging is okay, theft is not.

 

Theft is griefing? Well imo, griefing doesn't exist. If I had my way: If you can do it, it is legal and intended.

[Outlaw 697]

Step 1: Wall around your deed

Step 2: Lock the gate

Step 3: That's it, there is no step 3, you're 100% secure along with all your items inside.

 

Even though it's 'PvE', if you leave your belongings 'out in the open', don't consider them safe.

It's a scummy thing to do, stealing from someone on PvE, but people are going to find a way...so you better find a way to protect yourself and your items...there are plenty of ways to do so already.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Outlaw

[Hashirama 870]

Protect your deeds with correct permissions. If some villager on deed is allowed to bash buildings, then they should be allowed to bash the buildings they own or are given permissions to. Not the buildings that they cannot enter or pick up stuff from. That is one permission flaw I see in wurm. Big flaw and that was the cause of silent hill tragedy. Now if that is fixed, I dont see any problems. Just protect your stuff like everyone else does.

[Audrel 2,223]

Step 1: Wall around your deed

Step 2: Lock the gate

Step 3: That's it, there is no step 3, you're 100% secure along with all your items inside.

 

Even though it's 'PvE', if you leave your belongings 'out in the open', don't consider them safe.

It's a scummy thing to do, stealing from someone on PvE, but people are going to find a way...so you better find a way to protect yourself and your items...there are plenty of ways to do so already.

 

Until a dropwurmian gummybutt bounces over your fence. LOL

 

Edit: Seriously. That's what I did. Fully enclosed in walls/fences/hedges where it is too steep for the others with a gatehouse. No keys to lose and can't lose a writ. Now I just need a 2nd row and about 30 hellhounds.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Audrel

[Dairuka 888]

There is no theft.

 

On deed on Freedom everything can be locked down.

 

Off deed, if its not in your possession it isn't yours.

 

Its simple really.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/115969-tragedy-at-silent-hill/

 

There is theft. There is absolutely nothing we can do about it. The rules make it so.

 

In fact, the rule changes only emphasize people's mistrust of the volunteers as any retaliation against griefing is exponentially more likely to be moderated/punished than the griefing itself. You could do everything right, and you'll still be unprotected. Then when something does inevitably happen, you'll be blamed and shamed for a glitch, exploit or loophole that you 'should've known about' ahead of time. It's actually a very lousy way of doing things, and it denigrates greatly from Wurm's community, emphasizing and rewarding bad behavior. All because of some poorly designed game mechanics, (Shout out to Yellowfinger and the long dead and forgotten Rite of Spring community gatherings.) and the overbearing PvP interpretations on how things should be run on Freedom servers.

 

Simply put, Wurm's community is toxic, it's moderation is intentionally ineffectual and it's player-base is cynical because of it.

 

On a related note. Reading this thread kind of makes me shake my head at the irony. Why are there so many hardcore PvP'ers commenting on a predominantly PvE-only problem? Maybe Freedom should get it's own general discussion board where the PvP'ers who don't play on Freedom's PvE servers can't post.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Dairuka

[Rekenber 3]

My personal opinion on theft vs salvage on PVE servers is:

 

If it's unlocked, not inside a fence, not on a deed, salvage.

If it's in an area with visibly decaying/missing walls/fences, salvage.

If it's in an unlocked cart with a good amount of decay on it, salvage.

If there's nobody in local when you get to these, definitely salvage.

 

If you have to break something to get to it, theft. (if a majority of fences that are connected around the item are visibly decayed, this is an exception)

If you bounce onto a locked in fence or onto a deed, theft. How you'd get out after however...

If exploits are used, theft.

 

Note: If at any point you say 'Well there was nothing STOPPING me from catapulting into these fences/this house; mining into this guy's mine from the side to get into his deed; pushing this guy's cart off deed to drag it away; etc.' then I would heartily recommend a change to the PVP server.

 

With this definition of theft, then yes, it is griefing and no it should not be allowed. Also to throw an extra 2i into the mix, I'm not really a fan of the whole 'deed it or lose it' movement, since from my F2P perspective it sounds like it basically forces you to pay up to have your theft report seem valid.

[Mordraug 2,542]

Simply put, Wurm's community is toxic, it's moderation is intentionally ineffectual and it's player-base is cynical because of it.

 

Nailed it.

[Outlaw 697]

I would rate Wurm has having one of the best communities from any game I've ever played.

It is still real playing, investing real time and money though, so of course there's going to be drama.

 

That said, I've never seen a game with so many people who are honest and willing to give up their time to help someone else.

[Klaa 4,872]

Meh, Ive seen far, far worse player communities. Not even including LoL's in there, they are a special breed all of their own.

[Garit 366]

Should theft be allowed on PVE  servers ? .....NO

 

Is theft greifing ?.... if it's not allowed, then YES

 

Lets keep this simple ....look at the text before you enter the Freedom isles....."Theft is not allowed". So if it's not allowed it's greifing plant and simple.

If there are loads of players that want to steal stuff thats not theirs then go to the PVP servers.....thats what they are made for - Fighting and stealing items.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Garit

[Corsan 199]

If there are loads of players that want to steal stuff thats not theirs then go to the PVE servers.....thats what they are made for - Fighting and stealing items.

 

Pretty sure that was just a mistype (Guessing you meant PvP), but all the same...it's exactly the type of issue we're having here.

 

 

since from my F2P perspective it sounds like it basically forces you to pay up to have your theft report seem in-valid.

 

Fixed that for you.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Corsan