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Clatius

Should Theft Be Allowed

  

247 members have voted

  1. 1. Should theft be allowed on PvE servers?

    • Yes
      79
    • No
      146
    • Don't care
      22
  2. 2. In your opinion is theft greifing?

    • Yes
      127
    • No
      93
    • Don't care
      27


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In Wurm if you see a large cart with animals attached to it and realize it is unlocked you can unhitch the animals and clear the cart of all valuables then ride away with the items and animals and this is not considered stealing by the current rules.

But the GMs might still interfere if you know who took the stuff... there seem to have been some cases where GMs returned other people's belongings after they were stolen because the victims saw the thief and the GM could verify what had happened (maybe screenshots were taken). AFAIK the only reason they don't usually do it is because it's too much hassle to prove who stole the stuff so they just let it slide, or maybe different GMs treat it differently, who knows.

Funny, isn't it, how the current rules about thievery seem to be so very unclear.

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This 'common sense' does not work in all cases.

What if there is a deed with 20 villagers. Someone in the deed leaves their drake set in a chest outside the leatherworkers house to be imped. Another villager comes along and takes the drake set then leaves the village.

 

How do you prove who owns that drake set, to the point that a GM who doesn't know any of the parties involved can come and rectify the situation?

It would open a whole range of scams involving selling an item then claiming it back via a GM ticket claiming it was stolen etc.

 

Theft is an issue for players to resolve within the game, not for GM intervention.

 

The part of my post that you quoted is taken out of context from the rest of my post.  I was not talking about situations where it is unclear and I was not talking about GM intervention.

 

Your scenario has nothing to do with someone going onto a deed who has no business there, and knowing full well that anything on that deed belongs to someone and not to him/her?  Anyone with half a brain can see if something belongs to them or not.

 

A proper and fully documented (and clearly stated for new people) permissions system with an aggressive & timely loophole-plugging policy, would solve the vast majority of problems that continue to plague the PvE servers. 

 

No one is claiming it would solve all problems.  But to just dismiss all talk of interfering with the "fun" of thieves on PvE isn't an answer. 

 

Just because someone you trust with permissions might still be able stab you in the back on a non-pvp server, doesn't mean we should just continue to do nothing about the things that can be solved with a proper system, and let the morally/ethically deficient do as they please and blame the victims.

 

The OP of this thread is "Should it be allowed."   My opinion is that it should not be.

Edited by Amadee

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I'm all for having vehicle, boat, structure and on-deed permissions that are as water-tight, user-friendly, and noob-accessible as possible. Now, don't ask me to design that system cuz' I haven't got a clue.


 


I'm still opposed to specifically outlawing thievery. The more particular the game rules become, the more laborious and contested the GMs' rulings will become. (Anyone who has read a state statute describing what actually constitutes "theft" or even "property" knows how Dickensian this can be.) As people have noted, the genius in policing "griefing" is that it gives you so much discretion.


 


My vision of the game is one where small collectives impose their own rules -- often using deed permissions and the like -- and PVE means no one should be able to forcibly come in and take your stuff. I don't see the game as having an overarching civilization enforced by rules -- except in cases of griefing and exploits where someone is intentionally gaming the game, treating it like a game, and there's no more aura of realism to protect. So the cavalry still swoops in then. Sometimes.


 


If someone wants to draft a Xanadu/Indy/Deli constitution banning thievery and noob slavery and get it ratified by a majority of deed holders ...


 


 


EDIT: I looked at some of those statutes, and although they give rise to complex cases, they're relatively simple themselves. It's interesting to note that theft is often defined (in addition to other definitions) as depriving someone of value. So, could mining iron ore from someone's unlocked mine be prosecuted as theft?


Edited by Tipper
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This poll leaves me with questions more than anything. What is considered theft? Would looting fall under the theft category?


 


Also, if griefing is the act of causing harm to others via trolling or whatever, then it's not the theft itself causing the griefing. It's the intent of the theft if the theft is meant to cause harm to the victim who has been griefed.


Edited by Lotus1

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Voted don't care because it doesn't much matter what I think. As long as someone can steal something and sell if tor real world money, they are going to do it. Ask any crack addict. I also said it should be griefing but won't matter unless they get caught.


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Pointless poll is pointless.


It's not going to show player's opinions unless you first define theft.


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Pointless poll is pointless.

It's not going to show player's opinions unless you first define theft.

 

I know I haven't exactly voted as I don't even know what I'm voting on. lol

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Don't forget that when they go through adding new 'features'...(For example, loading.)...and haven't actually put in a feature to block it...that when people run around 'loading' things off people's deeds...it's not 'stealing' or a 'bug' or anything, it's just 'salvaging'...right?


 


(I heard stories about people's deeds being looted of rare items RIGHT after loading was added and it took them awhile to put in deed permissions/blocks for any of this stuff.)


 


This couldn't possibly be considered 'thieving' nor 'griefing' at all...


 


Then they throw in a feature where you can 'bounce' into someone's deed if you find a proper elevation outside of it to fall and 'gracefully' land inside their 'protected' area...but that couldn't possibly be used to 'grief'/'thieve' from anybody at all...


 


Or the whole 'If you didn't lock your vehicle, but it is showing the permissions management settings even though they aren't active because you didn't actually slap a lock on it and the lock is what triggers those settings'...and someone magically hitches animals to your vehicle and drives it off your deed, then no, none of this is thieving or griefing. It's just the way the game is built, amirite?


 


(/sarcasm rant off)


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I voted yes, because I want the GM team working on bugged out players and proper griefing, not "was-this-theft-or-or-not-he-said-she-said" There is systems  in game to properly secure your items. Even for a free player. Yes they can be rough on new players not understanding or bothering to read up, but they are there. New permission system will (probably) make this even easier, so lets see it ingame before we demand further action.


 


And like in the past, present and future, lets shame those stealing from neewbies, and help the newbies understand how to secure items and get back on their feet.


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After reading what some people wrote in this post (i voted yes/yes with the context of intentional stealing from deeds), i now feel like a small thief based on some descriptions from here..


 


I started playing this game a couple of months ago, I came out of the tutorial not knowing anything, and i started from The Howl in Indy. After dying a few times from hell hounds, falls and drowning on a long afternoon swim, i decided to settle on a nice mountain ridge that had a mine close. I used to explore the area every day, and i found dozens of abandoned deeds full of junk, but that was gold for a new player (veggies, tools <30ql, but good enough, i even found a sword, half a chain armor that had jacket, one boot and two gauntlets, but that made me very happy because I was able to kill a wolf with them..). I always used to check all the bsb's, chests, carts for usable stuff..


 


Now i'm looking at what people are posting and i'm asking myself.. did i steal those stuff, or is that part of the beauty of exploring ?


Finding stuff unlocked off deed should not be considered stealing.. If you have something of value I can't understand why you can't make a 1ql lock and lock your stuff and you have no problems..


 


Comparing real life situations (leaving your car with the keys in it) with a game is a bit drastic.. This is a survival game, so if i found something that will help me survive without problems for a few days, i will take it.. If I ever find a drake set or high ql weapons or horses, i'm going to search for the owners without hesitation.. but i won't shout for anyone because i found a bsb with sprouts that has 30dmg and is in the middle of the forest.. ban me for it..


 


So if you guys don't consider me a thief, then i guess the only problem with theft is on deed, where you are intentionally doing it to harm another player and take advantage of a flaw in the permission system. Hopefully the new permission system will fix most of the issues, but people are very resourceful and will find holes that can be exploited, so we can at least try to stop them by following the security advices from the wurmpedia (large cart as example).



 


Important: Permissions only take effect when the cart is locked with a small or large padlock and anyone can attach one to enable the permissions. The lock can be removed by anyone in possession of the key. Another player that cannot normally access the cart will gain full inventory and drive permissions as if they were added to the settings should they attach a lock. To this end, it's important to lock your own cart as soon after creation as possible.


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No Faty what you did is not considered thievery.  (We call it 'Advanced Foraging'.) :P


I compared a large cart to a car because in Wurm a large cart with animals attached to it is the closest thing we have to a car.  


I wish I could say that the example was hypothetical but it has happened, more than once.  In fact there was a group of players that 'staked out' Freedom Market doing just this over and over again. :(


They are even telling people how to steal on PVE servers in Youtube videos.


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+wurm+stealing&qpvt=youtube+wurm+stealing&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=74FBD44F714778943C5674FBD44F714778943C56


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What a bunch of sissies. If you can't handle the responsibility of securing your items in a multiplayer sand box then you shouldn't play a multiplayer sand box. The permission system works great as is, hopefully it's update will be nothing more than expanded features and not placing more invisible bubbles around items.


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I really hope you don't mean this video of dumb and dumber stealing foraged items and 5ql boots because they found the keys to everything in a small cart that can't be locked.. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCQ7HmkG-W4).. I won't even say more..


 


You can keep them out with a 1ql lock.. I bet these are not the thieves people are afraid of..


Edited by faty
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", i even found a sword, half a chain armor that had jacket, one boot and two gauntlets, but that made me very happy because I was able to kill a wolf with them..)."


By Faty


 


Yes the haul of chain armor and iron coins do not seem like much to long time players but for those just starting out (like in your story) they are very important items.


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True, but I were comparing my experience where i found all those items on abandoned deeds, with no buildings in sight.. not in someone's forge by taking advantage of the fact that he left his keys to everything just lying around..


 


You have to be naive to expect that only honest people play this game, people that won't take advantage of items left for everyone to grab.. on deed or otherwise.. It's a sandbox game, everything belongs to everyone unless you protect it somehow through the game mechanics.. And if there wasn't a way for you to protect your items and everyone could take them, then yes, i see a reason for votes and debate.. but as the game already has in it everything you need to lock your valuables in a safe place and you don't use it and then complain about them being taken away.. then your hypothetical example should have included a <free car> sign along with the keys left in the ignition, in the context of this sandbox..


Edited by faty

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True, but I were comparing my experience where i found all those items on abandoned deeds, with no buildings in sight.. not in someone's forge by taking advantage of the fact that he left his keys to everything just lying around..

 

 

Exactly my point.

No if it had a <free car> sign then it would be like taking from the ABANDONED deed where you foraged your items.  

A running car indicates that it is in use by someone and is not <free>.

I would be fine with people being able to take items if we could than place a bounty on them and or kill them repeatedly ourselves like on a PVP server or they were teleported to a PVP server upon doing these socially unacceptable behaviors so that there would be consequences for their actions.

That is the real problem, there are no consequences for stealing on a PVE server.  The people who steal here are just to cowardly to do it on a PVP server where there would be consequences so if we add them on PVE then the cowards will leave.

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You have the KOS if you know who stole your items, but usually people don't know who the thief is.. so locking your items is the option to go for.. There is no way for the devs to implement something that will not leave out a gray area that is open to subjective debate for each individual case..


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Agree not well defined, but yeah, theft...   

However, it is not the point of this thread to define it, but to poll the high level concept. 

Wrong. The "Poll" aspect of this thread is useless because the term "theft" in this context has not been defined.

 

...poll is pointless.

It's not going to show player's opinions unless you first define theft.

Correct, almost. The point I see to all this is that players are making their opinions known and defining "theft" in the conditions under which they see it to be such.

 

I know I haven't exactly voted as I don't even know what I'm voting on. lol

Exactly. Better this thread had just been posted as a question rather than a "Poll' in an attempt to garner the response that the OP had wished for to prove some point or the other. This is why I did not respond to the "Poll" with a vote or even attempt to answer the thread title specifically.

 

Anyway, it has all worked out since *many* players rather than being pigeonholed into responding to the inflammatory statement of the thread title with simply a yes or no "vote", have defined the conditions under which they view theft occurring within the game. So a lot to consider here in light of these responses, for anyone who holds a somewhat open mind on the topic of theft in game, this then making this thread of value.

 

Yea, some good insights here, I reckon.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

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I've played this game for 3 years or so, on PvP and PvE, and I've only ever had my things "stolen" once - and it was my fault that they were stolen.


 


I didn't make a post, poll, or demand retribution and justice. Why?


 


Because I know what game I'm playing. This is Wurm, not your average themepark game. This is a game where stupidity has consequences, and yes - not using a lock is rather stupid. What, do you want to ban aggressive creatures as well? Because they didn't stop first to ask permission to attack and kill you? Or would you like all of your items to follow you around when you die, and how about your skills too?


 


If you don't like a game with consequences, then don't play Wurm Online.


 


That is all that needs to be changed.


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Same issue, different thread.  Players, that for whatever reason refuse to lock their possessions, on bended knees crying out to Code Club AB, "Please coddle me, and make someone pay for my negligence!" :rolleyes:


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Why is it necessary to start insulting the victims of theft in these threads? Especially when it's obvious this discussion is happening right now because of a recent incident that was not caused by stupidity or negligence, but rather a lack of understanding of the undocumented and invisible game mechanics. You guys are just being rude.


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Why is it necessary to start insulting the victims of theft in these threads? Especially when it's obvious this discussion is happening right now because of a recent incident that was not caused by stupidity or negligence, but rather a lack of understanding of the undocumented and invisible game mechanics. You guys are just being rude.

 

Sounds to me like some folks don't wanna lose a potential source of revenue.

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Imagine a world with no police, its obvious it is paradise for criminals.. and of course they don't want the police to appear.

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I voted yes, because I want the GM team working on bugged out players and proper griefing, not "was-this-theft-or-or-not-he-said-she-said" There is systems  in game to properly secure your items. Even for a free player. Yes they can be rough on new players not understanding or bothering to read up, but they are there. New permission system will (probably) make this even easier, so lets see it ingame before we demand further action.

 

And like in the past, present and future, lets shame those stealing from neewbies, and help the newbies understand how to secure items and get back on their feet.

 

Actually, now is the perfect time to be keeping this topic in the limelight, so to speak.  The fact that they are working on a new permissions system makes it the perfect time. 

 

Imo, it's best to give them as much feedback as possible on it while they still have their fingers in it.  Once it's implemented, and any initial bugs worked out of it, it will be rather late to be "making demands" for further changes.

 

And since it is something they are currently working on, I'm guessing that all of these comments are being looked at.  Even the ones from those who feel the need to insult, ridicule, and blame the victims for the deficiencies in the current system, maligning anyone not fully understanding a system that even some vets still have trouble understanding completely.  Not to mention those who want the status quo of no-risk, semi-pvp, with no consequences to themselves on a pve server.

Edited by Amadee
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I voted..


 


1.) No. However I doubt there will ever be program coding to enforce no theft on Freedom Isles server.


 


2.) Yes. Theft is most certainly griefing to me, but my definition of griefing is not the same as CodeClub's definition.


 


Now as to the point some have made about what the definition of "Theft" is...  That behavior, action, concept,.... has been well defined by thousands of years of human history and I see no need to redefine what "Theft" is. Our conscience tells us what theft is, when something is right or wrong, even in a game like Wurm. My conscience has no trouble whatsoever knowing what I should do and what I should not do ingame (because it would be wrong or harm others). If a Player's conscience is no longer functioning then that Player wouldn't listen to any definition of "theft" even if Rolf gave it.


 


Can I as a Player force others to obey what my conscience says or obey a conscience they no longer have? No. What I can do is listen to my own conscience as I interact with people and do what I think is right at the time, as long as I am also obeying the game rules Rolf and the Staff set up. If I see something on the ground and choose not to take it, even if I am allowed to by game rules, I am in fact still obeying the game rules.


 


In my opinion no amount of game Code or rules can ever do as good a job at policing our own action as our own self can, and that starts and stops with me controlling my actions ingame. That also includes using the permissions systems and locks to protect myself in the first place. That is what I focus on... keeping myself from becoming the object of another thread entitled "another Theft again".


Edited by geode

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