Should Theft Be Allowed

[rixk 830]

Pretty sure that was just a mistype (Guessing you meant PvP), but all the same...it's exactly the type of issue we're having here.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

Hehe yeah:

[00:33:32] You have been premium a total of 18 months until Dec 2013.

[00:33:32] You have been premium a total of 16 since Dec 2013.

Still hasn't made the report valid. Guess I need to pay extra for protection.

[Greyfox 427]

GMs making excuses for thieves is the reason I am on a break from Wurm at the moment. Love the game, tired of GMs making excuses for thieves.

[Cista 428]

The polls are amazingly even now.

That's quite a surprise and shows that the "ban all the griefing thief griefers" segment is really too hyper on the forums.

 

You should try and calm down a little, before you run half the population out of the game.

It is very simple, you cannot ban something that you can not define. If you maintain that stance it shows that you would rather wreck the game that we love than try and understand how it works.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Cista

[Cista 428]

Whoops double post while trying to make my first post more palatable..... 

Edited July 1, 2015 by Cista

[Greyfox 427]

The polls are amazingly even now.

That's quite a surprise and shows that the "ban all the griefing thief griefers" segment is really too hyper on the forums.

 

You should try and calm down a little, before you run half the population out of the game.

It is very simple, you cannot ban something that you can not define. If you maintain that stance it shows that you would rather wreck the game that we love than try and understand how it works.

In what world are 56% and 34% even?

[Lotus1 315]

The polls are amazingly even now.

That's quite a surprise and shows that the "ban all the griefing thief griefers" segment is really too hyper on the forums.

 

You should try and calm down a little, before you run half the population out of the game.

It is very simple, you cannot ban something that you can not define. If you maintain that stance it shows that you would rather wreck the game that we love than try and understand how it works.

 

It's not a matter of whether it can be defined or not. It can. The op just didn't define it properly to give an accurate poll and left too much open for individual interpretation.

 

It's like asking someone if they like food and interpreting it as they like all food.

[Audrel 2,223]

The polls are amazingly even now.

That's quite a surprise and shows that the "ban all the griefing thief griefers" segment is really too hyper on the forums.

 

You should try and calm down a little, before you run half the population out of the game.

It is very simple, you cannot ban something that you can not define. If you maintain that stance it shows that you would rather wreck the game that we love than try and understand how it works.

 

What about the half that are sick of the ###### that goes on here and leaves? Half is half, Cista. Does it really matter which half? The rampant and viral bugs are bad enough.

 

Not that anyone cares but I'm about done with this Perpetually In Alpha Development game and ready to give my money to someone else, not that my $50 USD a month means much but if half go with me, yeah... 

[Reylaark 1,100]

What about the half that are sick of the ###### that goes on here and leaves? Half is half, Cista. Does it really matter which half? The rampant and viral bugs are bad enough.

 

Not that anyone cares but I'm about done with this Perpetually In Alpha Development game and ready to give my money to someone else, not that my $50 USD a month means much but if half go with me, yeah... 

There is no leaving wurm though.

 

Eventually someone you know will say something about it, and your memories will start to come back.  You'll start hearing the sound of bricklaying in your sleep and before you know it, you're getting up just cuz it's time to make the mortar.

[thirtynine 257]

On a related note. Reading this thread kind of makes me shake my head at the irony. Why are there so many hardcore PvP'ers commenting on a predominantly PvE-only problem? Maybe Freedom should get it's own general discussion board where the PvP'ers who don't play on Freedom's PvE servers can't post.

 

This is very intestering point you bring up here.  These hardcore PvP'ers are obviously not happy with thier own server, so they want to infect thier misery on the rest of Freedom servers.  Why else would they even care what happens on PVE servers anyways.

[rixk 830]

Cista, you have whole cluster(or a server on freedom) dedicated to the gamestyle you desire. You can steal and scam there freely.. but you know that stealing and scamming has there consequences. It is great to be thief on freedom tho.. You have been granted immunity by the staff on freedom.

[Cista 428]

It's not a matter of whether it can be defined or not. It can. The op just didn't define it properly to give an accurate poll and left too much open for individual interpretation.

 

It's like asking someone if they like food and interpreting it as they like all food.

Then why has noone on the thread defined what theft is, and what actions should be bannable? Several have pointed out that you cannot define it, myself included.

 

If I lend my pickaxe to a friend and he does not give it back, is that theft? If I leave my horse unattended while I log out after chopping wood and someone takes it (believe me people have taken my horses many times that way), should I have the power to get him banned? And what about the pile of acorns that Alyeska so desperately wants to grab?

 

Those thefts must never become bannable offenses, because no person will ever be able to determine if the items were left behind to rot or not. If you don't like your neighbour, just leave a large cart standing at his deed entrance for a week. If he moves it BAM! He is banned. 

The other day I used some dirt that my neighbour had left behind in a crate for a couple of weeks in the middle of nowhere, to fill up a hole nearby. BAM! I am now banned, it was a clear theft of the dirt that he had forgotten all about.

 

I really don't think such bannings would be an improvement of the game And poor GMs who would be charged with settling all these disputes over items that people have "borrowed".

Edited July 2, 2015 by Cista

[rixk 830]

What is here to define, we all know what theft is. Taking stuff, which belongs to someone else. Definition from wiki: "Theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it."

Question here is what belongs to someone and what doesn't(is abandoned). Someone already addressed that part(I think it was Amadee). Stuff on deed belongs to someone, I don't think there is a question about it. Also carts, boats etc have owners tag on them, obvious, that you can't claim ownership on those items and items in it.

[Cista 428]

Nowhere in the OP or the poll does it say deed or "owner's tags", you are just speaking your own mind Rixk.

And this is fine, but the OP did not specify anything, hence why the poll and thread is a mess.

 

Suggestions could be made to fix the situation where a person can walk onto a deed and hitch horses to a cart and all that. It just has to be so that people that come with carts to work on the deed also camn move their carts afterwards.

And the bug should certainly be fixed where you can drop some item in a BSB and then take everything.

 

But that's all there is with deeds I believe, and according to your post Rixk, it seems that you are all for everything outside deeds is belonging to "noone", be it dirt in crates or boxes or horses left standing or tools or acorns on the ground. Which is also the situation that we have now and which all sensible players maintains is the only way it can be in this game.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Cista

[Sarcaticous 338]

Why do some people attempt to over complicate matters? This is so easy a small child can tell you what is theft and what is not. As a test I asked my 4yr old Grandchild what stealing was. "If you take what is not yours." If you take something that is not yours, without permission, it is theft. How hard is that? If a 4yr old child knows what stealing is why do so many supposedly intelligent adults have such difficulty knowing? Probably so they can confuse the issue and continue their thieving ways? Perhaps. Or perhaps they have become so wrapped up in today's penchant for clouding issues they have lost their way. This is sad. 

 

BTW, the game mechanics do NOTHING to help the issue. It would be simple to deny the ability to pick up what isn't yours. Other MMOs do this. Some put a time limit on this restriction. Others don't. It isn't nuclear physics. It would appear the game developer, *cough*Rolf*cough*, desires the drama and the ability to take what does not belong to you. If this is so then no number of polls or bitching and whining is going to make a difference. Unless, that is, it has to do with enchanted weapons. 

[Muzzy 43]

Looting possessions left behind by short lived players is a somewhat central part of the Wurm culture from what I've seen. However, even if the players quit, their possessions are technically still theirs. Most people don't consider taking those things as theft, after all it's a victimless crime unless the victims later choose to return to the game (and they usually don't).

 

Sometimes even long time players are away for 3 months or more and their deed expires, and they'll come back later to find some of their possessions gone. When the victim returns to the game, there's no way to tell who took the stuff or when, but isn't it still a theft? Or if it's not, when does the ownership of abandoned items become public domain, exactly?

 

There's nothing obvious in this, unfortunately, except what the game mechanics allow and what they do not. The GM practices around theft cases seem to be highly random as well, i.e. from what I understand they will sometimes act if it's not too much of a hassle to investigate and to deal with it, or if something of reasonably high monetary value is involved.

[Reylaark 1,100]

Then why has noone on the thread defined what theft is, and what actions should be bannable? Several have pointed out that you cannot define it, myself included.

 

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

 

Work with that definition to answer the question.  Should that be allowed on PvE servers?

 

Suppose the first question should have been, "do you have a character on a PvE server with current or previous premium time?"

 

I know the definition of theft above is conceptual, not as concrete as some seem to think is necessary but for the present question... it's actually perfect.  It's concrete in being a negative, which theft is, and yet vague enough to encompass whatever people want it to mean.

 

so if we all work with that commonly accepted definition of theft, do you think that should be allowed on PvE servers?  Or do you believe it should be limited to PvP servers?

[Proximo 402]

Theft isn't so black and white in Wurm.  Simply saying "taking what isn't yours is theft" is just some textbook definition that doesn't really apply to most situations.

 

You stumble upon an abandoned former village.  Half the walls on most of the houses had decayed away.  You can walk in and help yourself to whatever isn't locked down.  You can also bash the fence, and take whatever horses you see that you might want.

 

Now technically this stuff doesn't "belong" to you, sure.  But is it REALLY "theft" if you do this?  The game rules say it's not.

[Reylaark 1,100]

Theft isn't so black and white in Wurm.  Simply saying "taking what isn't yours is theft" is just some textbook definition that doesn't really apply to most situations.

 

You stumble upon an abandoned former village.  Half the walls on most of the houses had decayed away.  You can walk in and help yourself to whatever isn't locked down.  You can also bash the fence, and take whatever horses you see that you might want.

 

Now technically this stuff doesn't "belong" to you, sure.  But is it REALLY "theft" if you do this?  The game rules say it's not.

 

Ok, I can definitely see what you're saying.  I just don't think that has to keep you (meaning anyone really) from answering the more basic question.  Should theft be allowed in PvE servers?

 

If someone asks you, "should stealing your car be allowed?"

Do you answer, "no"?

Or do you say, "hmm, do I know the person taking the car?  Do I like the person taking the car?  Is there a sign saying the car is indeed mine?  How long has the car been stationary?"

 

I think it's more likely that first you establish that "no, car theft, especially involving my car, is not allowed."  Then you might establish that your wife borrowing your keys to run out for milk isn't theft, but the neighbor borrowing your car to move a body out of his house is indeed theft.^*

The particulars aren't necessary to answer the basic question about stealing your car.

 

 

What you're describing above is a specific action with specifically defined variables.  The question then becomes, "is this theft?"  The first question to answer though is, should theft be allowed?

 

The particulars are not necessary to answer the basic question.

 

^* This is just an example and not meant to resemble anything that may or may not have happened in real life.

[Cista 428]

I wonder if some of the people posting here even play Wurm or they are just here to blow some hostility. They keep talking about how easy it is to define theft and their granddaughter told them how. It is just "taking stuff that does not belong to you".

 

But if you had ever played the wonderful game Wurm (which I really really doubt), you would know it is a great game for working together. It is great for cooperation because items do not belong to *anyone*. However, by your definitions, we would all be thieves for picking up anything from the ground that does not belong to you.

 

For instance, during some hard woodcutting sessions, I had one of my friends pick up my logs for me in her wagon. Now, as anyone will agree, the logs are in all fairness mine, I made them after all. But in Wurm they do not technically belong to me even though I just made them 5 minutes ago. They belong to *nobody*.

 

Now, if you insane people and your granddaughters had your way, you would change the mechanics so it would be impossible for my friend to pick up my logs for me.

Sarcaticous says it very literally: "It would be simple to deny the ability to pick up what isn't yours. Other MMOs do this"

 

Luclkily for all of us the devs are not that crazy, so they won't listen to the nonsense and ruin Wurm forever.

[joedobo 1,187]

Just to be clear, I don't want theft at all. I'd to see more PvE mechanics to protects a player's interest in objects, especialy when it comes to deeds and anything that has a permissions management window. Also, I'd rather see Wurm do nothing then give GM's more opinionated judgment ability.

 

 

Now, curious, applicable to:

 

 

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

 

At what point does ones property become salvage? A big problem with applying real life logic to this dilemma is the idea of salvage. I can't think of a single situation where I could just wander over to an "abandoned looking" location and start taking anything I want.

[KunAlt 844]

I wonder if some of the people posting here even play Wurm or they are just here to blow some hostility. They keep talking about how easy it is to define theft and their granddaughter told them how. It is just "taking stuff that does not belong to you".

 

But if you had ever played the wonderful game Wurm (which I really really doubt), you would know it is a great game for working together. It is great for cooperation because items do not belong to *anyone*. However, by your definitions, we would all be thieves for picking up anything from the ground that does not belong to you.

 

For instance, during some hard woodcutting sessions, I had one of my friends pick up my logs for me in her wagon. Now, as anyone will agree, the logs are in all fairness mine, I made them after all. But in Wurm they do not technically belong to me even though I just made them 5 minutes ago. They belong to *nobody*.

 

Now, if you insane people and your granddaughters had your way, you would change the mechanics so it would be impossible for my friend to pick up my logs for me.

Sarcaticous says it very literally: "It would be simple to deny the ability to pick up what isn't yours. Other MMOs do this"

 

Luclkily for all of us the devs are not that crazy, so they won't listen to the nonsense and ruin Wurm forever.

 

Wen you enter Wurm, the very first time you drop anything there is a pop up coming stating in a clear language the simple fact once you drop the item you kinda lost ownership and is subject to be picked up by anyone outside of deeds.

 

Weird enough, I did built a good share of carts and wagons, and never got a pop up stating the fact that even on deed anyone can come and hitch animals to it to take it off deed and loot all the items inside.

 

All discussion about scavenging and picking acorns from free land is just stupid and the sole purpose is to justify a way of steal without facing the consequences.

 

I've done a lot of scavenge in the past, wen I was more in the mood to explore around the server, My last time I picked 4 wagons worth of dirt from a long time gone deed/enclosure, it was in decaying bsb's some with even 90ish dmg, most of the items and furniture around had heavy dmg, and only hedges remained, no walls no fences, just pave here and there, it was clear to me the place was abandoned.

 

Sometimes I found decayed houses or just the random chest with stuff, I usually pick up any bs item and then imp it to 90+ just to see who made it, and if I happen to find the owner I ask if he want the items back, then after some time laying unclaimed in a coffin next to my forge I just fix and reimp if needed, and then drop it in my merchant.

 

In other situations wen there was clearly not (or very low) dmg in the items around, I just made the choice of repair all I could just to grind my skill and leave all as is, just because for me clearly not enough time had passed to declare it abandoned.

 

Any seasoned player already know wen a place is abandoned and wen its on development, so if there is a bunch of undamaged resources and/or items and you can see someone has being terraforming or clearing the spot even if its in the open and game allows to take the stuff, you know if you do that you are just screwing some fellow wurmian hard work, so why do such a unpolite and disgusting thing?

 

Usually the answer is because the thief its also a coward and don't have the balls to do the same in a PvP server because he/she knows the gm's/rules will not be on their side, unlike in any of the PvE servers.

 

There is nothing wrong with playing the thief role in the Epic cluster or in Chaos, but doing it in any of the other Freedom servers its just low and not only should not be allowed. it needs to be punished (Maybe with a one way ticket to Chaos, and a restriction for crossing server borders for a period of time?).

[Amadee 1,543]

I wonder if some of the people posting here even play Wurm or they are just here to blow some hostility. They keep talking about how easy it is to define theft and their granddaughter told them how. It is just "taking stuff that does not belong to you".

 

But if you had ever played the wonderful game Wurm (which I really really doubt), you would know it is a great game for working together. It is great for cooperation because items do not belong to *anyone*. However, by your definitions, we would all be thieves for picking up anything from the ground that does not belong to you.

 

For instance, during some hard woodcutting sessions, I had one of my friends pick up my logs for me in her wagon. Now, as anyone will agree, the logs are in all fairness mine, I made them after all. But in Wurm they do not technically belong to me even though I just made them 5 minutes ago. They belong to *nobody*.

 

Now, if you insane people and your granddaughters had your way, you would change the mechanics so it would be impossible for my friend to pick up my logs for me.

Sarcaticous says it very literally: "It would be simple to deny the ability to pick up what isn't yours. Other MMOs do this"

 

Luclkily for all of us the devs are not that crazy, so they won't listen to the nonsense and ruin Wurm forever.

 

I see.  And during your "hard woodcutting session," does this also apply to the random guy driving by in his cart and picking up your woodpiles before you and your friend can, and also taking the wood out of the cart while you're loading it?  Sounds like what you're saying.  By this calculation, that would be perfectly alright, and not theft.  After all, it's not yours, right?  Technically, they belong to nobody, right?  Even after it's in your friend's cart.  lol.

 

How 'bout on deeds?  Do you feel this sentiment should also apply on deed? 

 

C'mon people.  You all know whether you're stealing or if something is abandoned.  All this nonsense about defining theft is really juvenile. You can dance around and argue about definitions and call people crazy, and try to cloud the issues, etc, etc, ad nauseum, but in the end, you know good and well if you're a thief or not.  And so do your victims.

 

I rather like KunAlt's idea of a one way ticket to Chaos or Epic for thieves.  lol

Edited July 3, 2015 by Amadee

[Bachus 462]

I wonder if some of the people posting here even play Wurm or they are just here to blow some hostility. They keep talking about how easy it is to define theft and their granddaughter told them how. It is just "taking stuff that does not belong to you".

 

But if you had ever played the wonderful game Wurm (which I really really doubt), you would know it is a great game for working together. It is great for cooperation because items do not belong to *anyone*. However, by your definitions, we would all be thieves for picking up anything from the ground that does not belong to you.

 

For instance, during some hard woodcutting sessions, I had one of my friends pick up my logs for me in her wagon. Now, as anyone will agree, the logs are in all fairness mine, I made them after all. But in Wurm they do not technically belong to me even though I just made them 5 minutes ago. They belong to *nobody*.

 

Now, if you insane people and your granddaughters had your way, you would change the mechanics so it would be impossible for my friend to pick up my logs for me.

Sarcaticous says it very literally: "It would be simple to deny the ability to pick up what isn't yours. Other MMOs do this"

 

Luclkily for all of us the devs are not that crazy, so they won't listen to the nonsense and ruin Wurm forever.

 

'Your FRIEND picked up the logs FOR YOU.'

Your friend did not put the logs in your wagon and drive off with it and your horses to their deed and lock them all away where you could not retrieve them.  I am pretty sure if they did that you would not be referring to them as a friend but as a thief.  

Anyone with the tiniest bit of common sense can see the difference.

 

   In the real world your car, your house, and most of your possessions do not belong to you either just try not making the payments or paying your taxes and you will find that out.  Yet if that car is stolen you would report it as your car has been stolen and would expect someone to recover it or pay restitution for it.

[Muzzy 43]

Anyone with the tiniest bit of common sense can see the difference.

Unfortunately, server software does not have this thing called "common sense", it operates on cold logic alone. Formalizing the logic for ownership in a way that doesn't get in the way of casual teamwork might get a little bit complicated.

Cista was simply answering to Sarcaticous's proposal of having the game logic take care of the ownership issue and presented a counterexample where such a mechanic would be somewhat undesirable.

[Amadee 1,543]

you should have made the poll so we could see who voted for what 

 

This.  I have to wonder how many of the pro-theft votes are people (and their forum alts) from the pvp servers.  lol.   People who don't like pvp and play on pve servers, in general, also don't like theft.

 

Theft is pvp. Theft on a non-pvp server is nothing more than no-risk, no-consequence, pvp.