Another theft

[LorraineJ 1,099]

How many more will it take before people realize that it is really easy to put a lock on it?

 

It's not "easy" to put on a lock. It's another time-waster with lots of fails, and yet another boring step to do, at least on a PvE server where by definition I should not be worrying about fellow players. And I'm DAMN sick of all the keys I have to carry around. Maybe your character has tremendous body strength but mine is a priest and every bit more I have to carry slows me down.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

What have now is a situation where GMs are forced to spend too much time on these borderline cases.

 

That's the whole point. They should be spending NO time on these cases, because there should be no "borderline" and no way to steal or grief on PvE, due to programming. How does allowing theft benefit the game? it wastes the time of the GMs, when they have so many other things to attend to such as extricating people from the endless bugs. It pisses off the good-natured paying customers, driving off a percentage of those who actually stick it out through the original grind to play for a while. The only benefit is to those who like to steal, and/or like to spread grief in an environment where there's no repercussion. What is the motive for perpetuating this kind of thing? Especially since there's a PvP outlet for these kinds of feelings? Is there a reason for teaching people it's ok to do this sort of thing when they can't be smacked back? How about a little morality? Would it hurt to show a good example?

[thirtynine 257]

I would be interested in a place in wurm where griefers/thieves are the ones that have to worry about what the rules are that allow them to grief/steal.  Where griefers/stealers have to worry about technicalities.  Where griefing/thieves = ban.  Where grief/stealing from deeds is not possible.  Where players that intentionally harm others are on the defensive, instead of victims.  Instead of "lock it or lose it" its "steal it and lose your character".  Wouldn't that be a novel concept on PVE servers.  Its too bad we don't have PVE servers we only have choice between PVP or PVG (players vs griefers) or PVT (vs thieves) in wurm.  I wonder if this was the game the designers intended? 

[Aaron_IRL 256]

For the same reason why some people don't build roofs and floors in their houses. They don't want to waste time on things they believe to be unnecessary.

 

Really, because I bet there has been a lot more time wasted by staff and people in all of these theft threads than it takes to lock something.

 

It's not "easy" to put on a lock. It's another time-waster with lots of fails, and yet another boring step to do, at least on a PvE server where by definition I should not be worrying about fellow players. And I'm DAMN sick of all the keys I have to carry around. Maybe your character has tremendous body strength but mine is a priest and every bit more I have to carry slows me down.

 

You know that you don't actually have to carry the keys to carts, wagons, ships, and on-deed gates that you own, right?     Just label the key, and throw it in a small chest in your house.  Assuming that you don't have your on-deed house open to kingdom and pick up set for everyone...

[Keenan 5,539]

Based on the suggestions here, I present you with what I think Wurm 2 will look like:


 

[Keenan 5,539]

Honestly.. I am tired of wurmians always blaming the victim. You know it is a theft, I know it is a theft. I just want to know what happens next, do we continue finding excuses/loopholes for thieves to get away, or there actually is being done something against them.

 

 

What happens next is you use a lock on your cart next time.

 

http://www.wurmpedia.com/index.php/Secure_storage

 

I recently updated that page. Perhaps you didn't see the newer version, but a quick read will help you avoid this unfortunate situation in the future.

[Muzzy 43]

What happens next is you use a lock on your cart next time.

 

There needs to be an in-game indicator when containers are unsafe.

 

Please let the dev team know about it, so that when the permission system is revamped it shouldn't be a big hassle to add some huge lock icon with text "The cart is UNLOCKED" with bright red, or "The cart is LOCKED" with gold, or whatever color choices the devs find to be good to represent the states of unsafe vs secure. Make it show the safety indicator every time the cart is hovered too, so that nobody misses the damn thing. Do the same for house doors and boats and bsbs, etc.

 

This is a massive usability failure and it cannot be fixed by educating the users.

[Bachus 462]

Yes the OP should have locked the cart but the thief should not have been able to drag it off deed either.  

If you cannot lead a horse off deed then you should not be able to drag a cart off deed either.  

This could be solved by linking the drag permissions to the lead permissions on deed. 

[Chiqa 742]

Preventing the dragging of someone else s cart off their own deed would go a long ways to  helping prevent  this situation in the future.

[Rasu 561]

Yes the OP should have locked the cart but the thief should not have been able to drag it off deed either.  

If you cannot lead a horse off deed then you should not be able to drag a cart off deed either.  

This could be solved by linking the drag permissions to the lead permissions on deed. 

Horses was hitched to it and then driven off deed. Dragging is already blocked by the current settings.

[Omgderp 185]

I don't want to blame the victim on one hand I really feel for them and try to help some that got stolen from with a quiet pm and offer what I can. The permissions ARE confusing, especially if you're new and/or English is your second language, but permissions for various items are being looked into. (And yeah they could hurry up I agree)

But on the other hand I'm tired of the Wurm mentality being that wurm staff is responsible for fixing every misgiven that has ever happened to anyone for any ignorance, derp or plain stupid ass thing someone did or didn't do.
 
If you don't lock your car who's to blame? Sure the thief is a thief and morally wrong and I'm ALLLL for calling an and . But Tell me what other games would go to the effort to try and do ANYTHING about these situations. Do you think a Runescape GM is gonna give a flying burger if you got ripped off with a trade? Try and FIND a GM in most games, good luck to you. Do you honestly think a GM in WOW is gonna care that something you dropped on the ground and got swiped by someone passing by isn't gonna have a giggle at the cute noob complaining?
 
You are expecting thousands of people to have all the exact same moral value and it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS LIFE TIME*
 
* being that we are all given chips inside our brains that program us to be fine upstanding people.
 
I have GONE out of my way to give links to securing your items in freedom and gl freedom. This one to be exact: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/116023-safety-first/

and I will continue to do so once I'm more active. But there is also a big need for a large serving of realistic expectations.

 

 

I don't even like a lot of staff so it's not about brown nosing either. Pm me and I'm happy to mock a good 1/2 dozen of them easy...but do we need a 10 page thread every month because people will be people both in assuming incorrectly and in being s?

 

-End rant and reading any more of these threads-

 

To the OP, contact me if you need some help I'll see what I can do. My forum account is of course Omgderp and well as in game.

 

 

 

[Muzzy 43]

If you don't lock your car who's to blame?

 

Real life locks have to always be opened and the owner knows they exist. Not so in Wurm, you can't always differentiate between having a permission and the lack of restrictive mechanisms. Even when the lock works perfectly you never see the lock open, the experience is exactly the same as if it wasn't there at all.

 

Real world also treats everyone with a key the same way. The real life lock won't reject you just because you're not the actual owner. Real life has no special permissions or capabilities for the "genuine owners" of things, no such concept exists at all in the natural world.

 

And finally, real world doesn't have magical protection areas like deeds. Look, these people thought they were being protected but in reality they were not. They actually took the measures to protect their possessions but it failed to function since they didn't fully understand the precise limitations of the invisible magical lock system. Are you really REALLY going to blame the victims for that? It wasn't their fault. When the protection is always invisible, it's impossible for a novice to detect the lack of protection.

 

The ONLY real solution is to change the game so that the protection becomes visible. This is the ONLY way to actually prevent these incidents. Educating users is futile because there will always be more new users and they all need to be taught about the working details of the invisible.

[rixk 830]

Based on the suggestions here, I present you with what I think Wurm 2 will look like:

Which part of the suggestions? Outlawing thievery? Just like some PvE parts have no place on PvP servers, theft simply has no place on PvE servers. Why? Let us look at thievery on PvP server. Playerbase there can police themselves, there it is reality, that the world is what players make it. Every person has a chance to kill/put a bounty on the thief, so thievery can have consequences.. Basically it can give great gain to the thief, but that great gain can have grave consequences(there is even possibility for the victim to get his stuff back).. risk vs reward is in place and it is up to players to enforce the rules. Now when we look on freedom it becomes flawed, here it has consequences only to the victim and only gain for the thief. Basically thief takes no risk and gets only gain yet victim takes only losses.

This is the reason, why you can't apply the same logic to both PvE and PvP servers. This is also the reason, why non-interference approach is wrong by the staff. We simply don't have tools to fight "crime". We can prevent most of the time, yes.. But considering how "intuitive" the permissions system is, 100% prevention is not possible, you can boost your own ego with such pictures and comments, but I can assure you, that I am not the first and certainly not the last person who falls victim to the theft. That means prevention is not enough.. if you want to have fully functional sandbox, then we need also have tools for the situations after the prevention has failed. Heck, you can be even online when someone comes on your deed, takes stuff and walks away.. you can't do anything to stop that someone. Currently the only "tool" for us to fight thieves are the GMs.

In my case, yes, I knew about locks. But as I said, that that cart was never meant to left the deed and without the lock deed settings don't allow stuff to be taken out of the cart, try it out if you want. So talk, that cart settings overrule deed settings is wrong. If they would, the carts would be like buildings, where you can take stuff no matter even if deed settings prohibit you take stuff on deed. What I didn't know, was that horses can be hitched to the cart and someone can drive away. Always assumed, that when I have deed settings set, which disable leading, it would also affect hitching. And that would also be perfect solution to my case, disable hitching on someone elses deed and such thing won't ever happen again.

[Bachus 462]

Yes the OP should have locked the cart but the thief should not have been able to drag it off deed either.  

If you cannot lead a horse off deed then you should not be able to drag a cart off deed either.  

This could be solved by linking the drag and hitch permissions to the lead permissions on deed. 

There fixed it.

[Ayes 3,715]

In my case, yes, I knew about locks. But as I said, that that cart was never meant to left the deed and without the lock deed settings don't allow stuff to be taken out of the cart, try it out if you want... 

...What I didn't know, was that horses can be hitched to the cart and someone can drive away. Always assumed, that when I have deed settings set, which disable leading, it would also affect hitching. And that would also be perfect solution to my case, disable hitching on someone elses deed and such thing won't ever happen again.

Yes, this was the issue here. Some players knew about this "loophole" of being able to hitch horses to unlocked carts *on deeds* and took advantage of this situation when they opened your large cart with no lock on it, viewed the valuable contents inside and decided to take advantage of this opportunity. I would agree too that this is not a nice thing to do according to my standards, so I wouldn't do it.

 

On the other hand, I always put a large padlock on any large cart that I create just as standard policy, so fortunately any items I put inside will be secure no matter where it is. If anyone does this then the Dev's will not have to take further protective actions as you suggest. Always best to apply all the preventative measures available if you want some peace of mind to secure your belongings and areas within the game.

 

Hopefully others will read this thread and take more precautions to secure their items as per some suggestions here within it.

 

=Ayes=

Edited June 30, 2015 by Ayes

[Klaa 4,872]

Granted suggestions can get a bit of "blame the victim"; though, they are (for the most part anyways) trying to be helpful.

[Rasu 561]

There fixed it.

Its covered by the lock that should be on the cart.....not the deed.

[Bachus 462]

Its covered by the lock that should be on the cart.....not the deed.

Does the lock on the cart prevent someone from dragging it off and waiting for it to decay in an off-deed house to get at the enchanted goodies inside?  = No

Though Linking the permissions would.

[Audrel 2,223]

There needs to be an in-game indicator when containers are unsafe.

 

Better, a lock should be required as part of the recipe like mine doors. No lock, you can't finish it.

[Corsan 199]

Does the lock on the cart prevent someone from dragging it off and waiting for it to decay in an off-deed house to get at the enchanted goodies inside?  = No

Though Linking the permissions would.

 

Another example to use here...if a boat isn't moored, you can push/pull it into a cave (Not on a deed...that permission would block it.)...slap a rock mine door on it and wait for it to decay also. Good luck to the user who attempts to find their boat...(Though I have a feeling if a GM actually was called in/intervened on something like this, they would rule against the person who 'hid'/blocked access to the boat on a PvE server.)

 

I've heard of so many of these types of loopholes in this game, it's absurd how many ways people can basically 'take what isn't mine'...

 

As a shipbuilder, I learned that you could FINISH building a ship on someone else's deed..and since the new boat counts as a new item/gets area of effect ownership, you can slap a lock on it and push/pull it off a deed. (I had actually been given permission to finish one sitting on a deed...my first knarr was a half built knarr sitting on a 'nature' deed with a templar protector.)

 

There's so many holes in this game's permission system, it's kinda crazy. People 'pay to protect' their land/items...but it's still quite possible to take things from deeds. There was a guy who sat in Freedom constantly bragging about the hundreds of thousands of items he'd stolen from carts/wagons/crates and how he would do things like kill off their animals to take the items, and then load up their carts and take them way out in the water and dump them somewhere. He was constantly trying to sell these ill-gotten goods to people also. (I haven't seen him for a good while, so perhaps he finally left...or took a long break...or was busted doing something that got him a ban...who knows.)

[Milosanx 716]

We all know wurm is not very noob friendly and sometimes it's even unfriendly to people that has played for a long time. We've all had bad thing happen to us in wurm and hopefully when we make a mistakes or find out info which we didn't know before we learn from it for next time.

 

It;s very uncool that this has happened to you, but make sure you lock everything. I don't think deed permissions should circumvent a lock mechanic. They are ingame for a reason.

 

Once again...Sorry for your loss.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

You are expecting thousands of people to have all the exact same moral value and it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS LIFE TIME*

...

 

 do we need a 10 page thread every month because people will be people both in assuming incorrectly and in being ######s?

 

-End rant and reading any more of these threads-

 

1. People will always have poor moral value, but why coddle it and encourage what's not right? Isn't it better to teach what's right? And the problem is, people sign on to play PvE. E, not other players. Then, when we discover that we actually can be victim to griefers and theives, we're stuck with no way to fight back against it. We get closed down when we bring to light who did the wrong thing. We can't repeat the details of when GMs side with the troublemakers. We have to bear with the frustration that we know the GMs know who did it, but they won't tell us. Many people choosing to play PvE want to spend their spare time feeling happy. All of this crap is the utter opposite.

 

2. Do we need a 10 page thread every month about this? No, we need an endless page thread EVERY DAY until it changes. It has to become a priority to change it. It needs to be understood that we don't like it. It needs to be clear that allowing this mean-spirited vibe in the game has to at least shift out of PvE. So please do read and contribute to the threads. I learned two new vulnerabilities in this thread because people who knew better spoke up. You remind the developers about what has to be fixed.

[Audrel 2,223]

There's so many holes in this game's permission system, it's kinda crazy. People 'pay to protect' their land/items...but it's still quite possible to take things from deeds. 

 

This is why I have said and will continue to say that "Deed It or Lose It" complete and utter crap and that all the gray area supposedly removed from "Legal Enclosures" was approximately zero. Now instead of people finding a way to get into off-deed places, you have people actively seeking broken mechanics (which is an exploit never mind the definitions that best suit that people use here) to get stuff from deeds. Yeah, I know... you are helping them fix bugs. They wouldn't fix them if $100 Euro in items didn't get stolen would they?

 

Your deed is only as safe as the as currently not found loophole/bug/exploit. Period.

[Rasu 561]

Does the lock on the cart prevent someone from dragging it off and waiting for it to decay in an off-deed house to get at the enchanted goodies inside?  = No

Though Linking the permissions would.

 

Go try and drag a locked cart on someone deed sometime.

[Bachus 462]

Go try and drag a locked cart on someone deed sometime.

I did last night

I was able to drag it.