Another theft

[LorraineJ 1,099]

This is more comparable to him leaving his lawnmower in the front yard over the weekend in a neighborhood known for theft than an actual burglary.

 

This shouldn't be a "neighborhood known for theft." It's PvE.

[Audrel 2,223]

I used to have my deeds wide open until some theft and griefing happened. THEN my neighbor, who I thought was my friend, used my "paranoid" locked-up deeds as an excuse to grief me for over a month. It's not as simple as you think. The bottom line is that theft should not be allowed on PvE. Period.

 

Fences all around now on mine too. There's a single tile around it for people to pass. That wouldn't be there either if it wasn't for the ocean. 

[Corsan 199]

Actually no, there were no exploits in that case. The guy used proximity ownership to get back the coins from the container. All coded "features".

 

What's also interesting about what you're currently mentioning, is that if you HAD built a small cart instead (Which CANNOT be locked), and stood your character by it/accessed the hold...nobody walking by could access your small cart for that period. (It gives a warning, due to Area of Effect ownership, until you step about 5-11 tiles away.) But if you'd logged off on someone's deed, the deed would take control of it away from you, and you couldn't get access to it back until someone on the deed accessed it/walked away from it/changed some permissions.

 

Basically, they've put so many loopholes in this game that are like a big 'Screw you' to new players...imagine if you sat around for a couple hours building a small cart NOT KNOWING this...and logged in to find that the deed you'd been sitting on building your cart had stolen control of your cart you'd spent a couple hours building...that would be something that would make a lot of people quit.

 

I only know this because I lived on some people's deed who tried to recruit me early on and their deed kept stealing control of my small cart away....and found out about the AoE ownership thing when I came across two noobs running through a desert who'd died pulling their small carts through and while they did some kiting I tried to pull their small cart out for them and when I tried to give it back to them it wouldn't allow them to touch it/access the contents until I moved away far enough...

 

The thing about small carts is, anyone can just drag it. So it would essentially be the same concept...you couldn't pickup stuff on the deed from it until someone dragged it off the deed and then stole everything...so you'd have to lock it away behind a fence/in a building...

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Basically, they've put so many loopholes in this game that are like a big 'Screw you' to new players...

 

New?? I didn't know these things either and I've been playing for some years. I thought No Lead and No Pick-up were sufficient to keep a wagon in your name, on your deed, safe. And I know the person who introduced me to the game thought so too, because back when our deed was open, I used to say shouldn't we put these carts away, and he said no, on deed it's set so people can't take things. The argument about "what if someone leads a cart on your deed, then they can't keep driving it" makes no sense to me. The cart is electronically marked as THEIRS, not mine. And I didn't realize what could happen with bins either! To me, no pick-up means no pick-up. When I've taken deliveries and needed the seller to be able to leave stuff, I've handed them bins, or they brought bins for me. They dropped the bins. I didn't know my own on-deed bins could be robbed by adding a dirt.

[Wulfgarr 810]

I know how you feel. When i was playing at Deli (and been playing for more then half a year) i discovered the fact that managment does not work without a lock on cart (no idea how i did not find that out before) even on deed. Lost a nice set of tools, armor and so on. It sucks, but i learned from it and now i lock everything. Even inside my house. That does not mean that i think the system is good and the person is okei. That person is still a thief and he took the things knowing it is a theft, so i think the best solution would be adding the lock to the creation. I think it should be able to replace it somehow..

[demondan 1,865]

I think wurm needs contents insurance for theft and accidental damage lol

[Cista 428]

But good that you reminded me of that case.. makes me question, why one person gets helped, another not.

Yes, that is the problem we have now. Because they have helped someone get their things back when it was not a clear exploit, the forum drama queens believe that they can force repercussions on any theft in Wurm. But running off with your stuff is not an exploit if you leave your things for the taking, or when you voluntarily give your things to players you should not have trusted. 

 

What have now is a situation where GMs are forced to spend too much time on these borderline cases. It's a shame that your things were taken, but from what I have seen in the thread, there was no exploit - the thief used the intended game mechanics to his advantage.

 

You can however make a suggestion thread to change the way the game works.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Cista

[joedobo 1,187]

 

However, I don't really see why we should need to put locks on our own carts. What problems would truly arise from carts being automatically locked when built? Is there even a complication or would it perhaps solve many future complications?....

Nothing is wrong with that. Its actualy a sound system. Whoever creates an object is the owner. no lock needed. nothing short of the owner using permission management to transfer ownership can transfer. Accessing inventory, dragging, pushing, destroying, embark, hitching, and anything else... would all be controlled with permissions. Finally, the game could setup the new object with owner only permission on creation and then they could be customized to loosen controls.

 

In Xsyon, the permissions for: tribal land container access, handcart usage/ownership, tribal land doors/gates, and tribal land access of tents are all done really well. Its a simple system that works as expected.

 

Wurm's problems are weird exceptions, controlling who has ownership, and what level of control the owner is given. The only way to transfer ownership should be with the trade window or with permissions management. Then, remove all the weird exceptions and implement a strict owner specified usage scheme. 

[Raybarg 436]

This is slightly offtopic but I type it here anyway.

 

I thought that since the problem technically is that people dont secure their cart themselves as they live in relatively logical but misleading assumption that ondeed unlocked cart is safe...

 

...that the tooltip on mousehover for a cart, if its your own, would show "UNLOCKED! NOT SAFE!" text added to it.

 

 

I mean, instead of fixing and making it as ppl assume, we could teach people to lock their stuff, By giving "a hint".

[rixk 830]

Yes, that is the problem we have now. Because they have helped someone get their things back when it was not a clear exploit, the forum drama queens believe that they can force repercussions on any theft in Wurm. But running off with your stuff is not an exploit if you leave your things for the taking, or when you voluntarily give your things to players you should not have trusted. 

 

What have now is a situation where GMs are forced to spend too much time on these borderline cases. It's a shame that your things were taken, but from what I have seen in the thread, there was no exploit - the thief used the intended game mechanics to his advantage.

 

You can however make a suggestion thread to change the way the game works.

Borderline case here? I think the case is very clear. Things were taken me without my consent. I think it is clearly a theft, nothing borderline here, don't you agree?

The question now is, what is the stance against thievery on freedom? I have been told by GMs, that theft isn't against the rule. But there have been clear cases in the past, where the GMs have taken action on theft.

For you personally I am telling, that don't freak out. You can continue stealing in the future as you wish. But it should be clear, that deeds are off-limits for thievery on Freedom. In the past the GMs have stepped in, when stuff was taken from deeds. That same boat case, which I linked. Recently there was also a case, where you could bash the building wall on deed. Both are cases, it was the victims "fault", that they allowed it happen. In both cases preventive measures were implemented, which could've prevented the theft. In both cases game mechanics allowed it to happen, but still GMs stepped in. Now someone has discovered, that you can hitch horses on deeds to someone elses cart, ride the cart out and empty it. The circumstances are exactly the same as my case, but for some reason GMs now ignore it. You can't selectively enforce the rules. The rules apply to everyone, or they don't apply to anyone... there is no borderline to that.

I am not even going into the bug, which allows you to empty BSBs on deeds, I am certain, that this will bring more trouble in the future.

[bigsteve 378]

We Had a BIG discussion on our Alliance TS yesterday. 

And came to the Conclusion that Wagons and Carts SHOULD have the same Mission attached to them that a Boat has, A Pop up window explaining "LOCK IT OR LOOSE IT"

 

We also found out that a few of the alliance members (who have player for over a year) did not know that the permissions only come into effect when a lock is attached...

Edited June 29, 2015 by bigsteve

[Aaron_IRL 256]

I am always baffled by these theft threads.  It seems like every one of these threads start out the same way.  They always admit that they knew it was unlocked, and still want to argue that it should be safe somehow.  This means that you knew there was a way to secure the cart, and you chose not to act on that knowledge.   Well, this is the outcome.

 

I wonder if you will put a lock on that cart now, or continue to pray that the game will make more rules to hold your hand and keep you safe despite your best efforts to do it yourself.

 

I know that a lot of you will think that this sounds cold.  Seriously, how many theft threads are there just like this one?  How many more will it take before people realize that it is really easy to put a lock on it?

[Amadee 1,543]

Seems to me these threads serve a very valid purpose in keeping the issue of theft on pve servers from being forgotten and swept under the carpet.

 

They're working on a new permissions system.  The more input at this point in time, the better. 

[Holeron 15]

Strange how most people jump on loser and the theft get away without even a warning. Just saying.

[Mordraug 2,542]

Here's a little challenge for the pro-thief crowd.

 

Get off the computer a moment, go to your neighbor's.  You can start by stealing the doorbell button.  Any yard/patio furniture is yours.  Grab the dog too if the neighbor has one, the dog's plates also.  While you're at it take their mail and their car's rear view mirrors.

 

When the cops come, tell them it was your neighbor's fault for not properly securing everything.  Tell us how that went after your jail time is over.

[Clatius 455]

 

We also found out that a few of the alliance members (who have player for over a year) did not know that the permissions only come into effect when a lock is attached...

 

At the very least the whole thing is inconsistent to the point that people who have played for months don't understand how it works. Anything on a deed should be protected automatically, locks or no locks. It's kinda stupid my pile of garbage is better protected than my cart full of rare armor when both are on my deed. 

[Viti 400]

Always funny to compare in game stuff to real life.

 

Ill go steal my neighbors lawnmower, right after I dodged this lava spider, killed the red dragon that was bashing my neighbors house walls together with the community, butchered the lava fiend, recovered my 3 corpses from that troll cave over there, carried both my corpses worth 200kg of stuff to the other side of the town, and bought a new hammer cause I forgot to repair it after hammering this nail and it poofed into thin air.

 

If you want to make any suggestions, make them. I seen some really good things and ideas in this thread and the upcoming permission change might change a lot. Comparing RL with in game is just silly.

[Muzzy 43]

When the cops come, tell them it was your neighbor's fault for not properly securing everything.  Tell us how that went after your jail time is over.

Real world has these things called laws, and there's police whose job it is to investigate the laws and prevent them from being broken, and then there are the courts to enforce the laws and to determine if they were broken. In real world, theft is actually written down in the penal code along with a definition of what it means.

In Wurm, there are only vague rules that are intentionally left unclear so the GMs don't have to waste time arguing about the rules, they'll rely on their authority alone to resolve conflicts and the rules are only guidelines, they are secondary to the absolute power that GMs wield. GMs are not the cops of wurm, they're the judges. Think of judges as in Judge Dredd style instant justice, that's roughly what GMs are like. GMs are the law.

In Wurm, if you try to make a forum thread to discuss what EXACTLY is actually against the rules and what kind of things affect the outcome, the GMs will lock the thread for being harmful to their ability to pass judgement. The players aren't supposed to have confidence in the rules, they're supposed to be afraid of them. More accurately, the players are supposed to be afraid of GMs, constantly insecure and unsure about what they're actually allowed to do. That's how Wurm's "justice" system is designed.

So yeah, please compare Wurm to real life all you want. It's quite interesting to compare and contrast, it's truly fascinating!

 

And do you know why it's so different? I'll tell you. Everyone has the right to life, among with a bunch of other rights that (most of) the governments all around the world are committed to protecting. But in Wurm online, as a player, you have no rights whatsoever. The game in its entirety is a mere privilege. If you don't like the rules, you can just walk away and take your business elsewhere, that's the only power and the only right the customer has.

[Zenity 728]

Here's an experiment, leave your door unlocked, windows open, and make sure all your good stuff is on display on tables etc, now go for a weeks holiday to Lanzerote.

 

When you return, and your stuff has been stolen, go try to claim it on the insurance, and be amazed when your insurance company refuse to settle because you did not take adequate security measures to secure your property .....

 

Honestly, you cannot steal anything on Freedom, if it's not secured it's fair game, no one can tell who it belongs to, no one can tell it's not merely abandoned.

 

If you leave your stuff unsecured, then don't be surprised when it walks in the inventory of someone who just picked it up.

[Mordraug 2,542]

Here's an experiment, leave your door unlocked, windows open, and make sure all your good stuff is on display on tables etc, now go for a weeks holiday to Lanzerote.

 

When you return, and your stuff has been stolen, go try to claim it on the insurance, and be amazed when your insurance company refuse to settle because you did not take adequate security measures to secure your property .....

 

If the cops do catch the thief, however, they won't let him off the hook with a cookie and a hug.  Theft is theft, except, apparently, according to some wurmians, if it can be done with full impunity and safety from consequences behind one's monitor AND on a PvE server.

 

Cowardly, those who do it.  Idiotic, those who encourage it.

[Aaron_IRL 256]

Who said anything about being pro-thief?  I was addressing the players that keep reading these threads and continue to do nothing by saying that people should be more proactive about taking care of their stuff.  Don't set yourself up for a loss when it clearly happens over and over again.  This whole issue confuses me because I cannot understand why it is so hard to put a lock on carts, wagons, and ships.  It's just part of the process for me when I build one.   I just know to have a lock and key ready for when it's completed.

[Muzzy 43]

We also found out that a few of the alliance members (who have player for over a year) did not know that the permissions only come into effect when a lock is attached...

Heh.

I'm pretty sure most of the Wurm players don't understand how permissions work right now. And I'm also fairly certain that >95% of those that DO have a grasp of how it all works, do not know the full details, e.g. how long the proximity ownership will remain on dropped items etc. The game has no in-game indicators for many of the things so it's not going to be easy to figure out that stuff on your own...

[Zenity 728]

If the cops do catch the thief, however, they won't let him off the hook with a cookie and a hug.  Theft is theft, except, apparently, according to some wurmians, if it can be done with full impunity and safety from consequences behind one's monitor AND on a PvE server.

 

Cowardly, those who do it.  Idiotic, those who encourage it.

 

So when someone steals stuff we need to call for law enforcement ingame?

 

It's a game, it has rules, it also has no mercy for failing to follow the warnings that leaving things unsecured means they are unprotected by the game, no matter how many real life comparisons you bring up, not one applies, because Wurm is simply not real life, never has been, never will be.

 

(If you start to think that perhaps Wurm is real life, you need a break).

[Muzzy 43]

This whole issue confuses me because I cannot understand why it is so hard to put a lock on carts, wagons, and ships.

 

For the same reason why some people don't build roofs and floors in their houses. They don't want to waste time on things they believe to be unnecessary.

[KunAlt 844]

Imho allow anyone to hitch animals to a cart/wagon not belong to him/her while the cart/wagon is on a deed he/her doesn't belong to, is stupid.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love wurm, but is clear to me that the whole Fredom ruleset only benefit grievers and thieves, there is lop holes very well know both in the mechanic and the rules, and not a single one got fixed in so many years.

 

The abusers and the staff will keep saying things about you need too properly secure things and bla, bla, bla. Blaming the victim, but don't want to see the reality, the entire lock system is not less than a giant burden for any deed holder.

 

Simple fact, in order to really secure your deed, you need to have at least a lock in every container/vehicle, but you don't have a proper way to secure the keys, and in some cases you can't store the keys because you need it to access the locked goods.

 

Attaching a lock in a container and or vehicle for sure needs to stay for wen you have to do that with off deed properties, but lets face it, if its on deed, and lockable, then should be locked by default without needing an actual real lock (call it magic and store it next to dragons, trolls and unicorns), a cart/wagon shouldn't let anyone hitch animals while on deed, unless the hitcher is a citizen/mayor of the deed. Owner will always have access/hitching rights no matter if the cart is on or off deed and regardless if he/she doesn't belong to the deed (same as you can lead your own horse while branded).