Sign in to follow this  
Laerck

Even Wurm's History Is (Somewhat) Circular

Recommended Posts

I hope no one mind's me bringing up ancient topics, but I think its always interesting to look back at what Wurm was years ago and from that gain a greater appreciation for what it has become (i.e. the product of a small & dedicated development team and player community) and what it still can become. Wurm Online has always been both an overly ambitious project and one with great potential, something that is easy to see in this early description for what the creators of Wurm, Rolf & Notch, envisioned the gameplay of Wurm would eventually become.

 

Wurm is an online MMORPG. What it has common with many other MMORPGS like Asheron's Call, Everquest and DAOC is that players log on to a fantasy world, pursuing their own goals - be it community building, exploring or battling other creatures or players.


Wurm does differ from these classic games in quite a few ways, all designed to improve the genre and take it to the next, higher level.
Let us look at an example. The first few months of a new player who logs on to a wurm server.

The player logs on as usual. "Nordi" enters the world on a shore of the sea, with a forest in front of him. The server kindly instructs him that he has been shipwrecked. He starts exploring the fairly pleasant forest. Quite soon he hears the sounds of woodchopping and tinkering and spots smoke rising through the foliage a few hundred meters away. As he hesitantly approaches the smoke he hides behind trees and bushes, and notes that he slowly learns how to cover himself in a better way.
Suddenly he freezes, as he obviously has been spotted by a man with an axe who stares at him. But the man simply nods and continues his lumberjacking chore. As Nordi relaxes he approaches the village openly, noting a few guards in the open area where the palisade around the village still has not been completed. The guards look at him hesitantly but simply nods as he walks into the village. As he explores the village he understands that quite a few of the people specialize in fletching or bowyery, and that the village produce quite a lot of hide armour of high quality. A person greets him and shows him around the village. He asks if Nordi wants to settle down here in the village, and that they need another person who can hunt for hides since one of the three hunters "has left for the battle grounds". Nordi is up for it and after a quick ceremony where he "joins the Shura Village" he receives a bow, arrows as well as a decent hide armour. The mayor, whom he has been spoken with all along tells him that when he returns with corpses of animals the village's armourers will skin the creatures and create items which they sell all over the island. In return he will receive protection from the guards, food (unless he learns how to cook the meat himself), shelter and eventually they will all help build him his own house. They have special people like that lumberjack for constructing things in wood.

As the first week of playing passes, Nordi becomes quite the hunter. He has advanced from learning how to fire the bow at easy targets to attacking birds and tougher prey with success, although he still avoids the occasional bear he meets.
Although he avoids them at all cost, he has had some contact with goblins from a tribe that has set up camp a kilometer down the coast. Now and then a hungry hunting party of goblins arrives at night and butchers a cow or two before the guards react, so one of these days the village will gather and eliminate that threat. He hopes he will be of good use come that day.
He has learnt how to skin hides and create items of leather himself to a certain extent, but feels more at home in the forest and the thrill of hunting than settling down and trading full time like many others. This village trades with mainly three other villages, one that lies in the mountains and where they create items in steel - for example arrowheads, another that keep sheep on the hills a few kilometers away that specializes in pottery, clothing and opal jewelry, as well as one that has an expert horsetrainer and produce glassware. But that is not for him, he reckons. He wants to explore and stumble upon treasures.

After three weeks he has started exploring the areas in the centre of the island, sometimes alone and sometimes with friends from the village. They find little treasure, but much beauty and horror. On a very special day, when resting by a secluded pool with a waterfall he sensed a change within. From then on, he has been much more in tune with nature, and almost feel he can communicate with small animals like squirrels at times.

Eight weeks into Nordis new life he is beginning to grow a bit restless.
Although he really likes almost all the people in the village, he has noted he spends less and less time in his humble hut. Mostly he visits it to dump the small treasure he keeps after trading in the other villages for items like the longsword and shield he has started to use in close combat. He has heard of a distant island where people like these live and fight for their lives not only against orcs or the other monstrous inhabitants that live on this island, but against people like themselves but much more sinister and evil. He hopes he can be of use there, since he is adept at archery and has killed quite a lot of goblins and orcs with his sword. There is still plenty to explore here, like the infamous Caverns of Doom or the Tower of Bibla, but only the most experienced adventurers go there, and in quite large groups. So he decides to make way for the port town of Chitaas and hop on the first boat that takes him to glory.

After four months in the lands of Wurm Nordi feels like quite the warrior. Almost every day there is a raid where the enemy comes in large hoards against their stone-walled keeps. He has felled at least twenty of them himself with his new bow, enchanted by a greedy wizard residing in relative safety in a hamlet a few kilometers behind the lines. Other days he participates himself in raids against the enemy keeps or towns. The battle sways, but the enemy is as adamant as they are. Once they conquered their port town and invaded their island with a huge army in an attempt to finally overthrow the enemy. But they slowly gathered, and soon hoard after hoard of the axe-wielding brutes relentlessly assaulted their army, gradually thinning it out. As reinforcements were scarce they soon had to retreat all the way back to their defense lines at status quo, but not without great riches and plunder. Soon he will once again retreat back to his island and pursue more of the powers he once discovered by a pool with a waterfall. He has heard a good place for that is the Tailspider Forest beneath Red Mountain...

All people except the guards in this story are real players. There will be few NPC's since the world is supposed to be built and run by players. Monsters will have different degrees of intelligence, but you are not supposed to converse extensibly with them. There are plans for certain extremely dedicated players to be able to play other races, though, but this has yet to be decided.
The main plot, which will unravel very slowly and probably affect few players in the beginning, will not be discussed here, as it will be a secret to all but the creators.

I hope this gives an overview of what we are trying to achieve.

Kind regards,

The Creators.

 

Source

 

It's been 12 years Rolf, wheres our glassblowing skill?

 

Lets also not forget how far the game has come in terms of graphics, even in my 3-4 years of playing Wurm looks like almost an entirely different game, something that Im reminded of whenever I google Wurm and typically only see screenshots from a few years ago.  Here's a few screenshots from Wurm's early days.

 

Although some things havent changed, for example we still see a lot of topics & issues brought up today that were discussed many (in this case nearly seven) years ago.

 

Linking Forum Accounts with Game Accounts

 

PVP Development Vs. PVE Development

 

And of course the inevitable Wurm is dying thread

 

All of this is to say that before we complain that the game is broken or that X feature is making the game unfavorable we should remember that chances are Rolf & the development team have already heard the argument/discussion before, which is not to say that these issues should not be brought up, but while doing so we as a community should try to temper our discussions by remembering that they (the development team) have made consistent progress over the years and history has shown that we as a community have a lot of control over Wurm's development as well.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read, I know this is a little wordy and definitely fanboyish but I believe we should always remember that the team and we as a community have made a lot of progress over the years and Wurm only continues to improve as time goes on.   

 

Remember Wurm Is Waiting

Edited by Laerck
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've started playing in 2008 and have never read that concept page. I can't see Wurm in that as it was in 2008, and I can't see it like that in 2015. And I'm glad I don't. Because, most of that concept reads like your run off the mill MMO.

I think I can honestly say that Wurm is only in small fragments like what that concept text describes, those words are so generic these days, that I can't really find a whole lot of Wurm in there, and I quite like that.

The biggest part is the story of a player, but that's only if things go the ideal way. You don't wander into the wilderness, you are not without water to drink, you're not getting lost in a forest while starving to death, and then being eaten by wolves ;)

^ But that can very well happen instead.

The story written there is a fantasy, but it is a fantasy that is possible to become true. Not just because Wurm exists, but because of the people who play. There are nice people in Wurm, people who can make that story come true. There are people who are not that nice, people who can shatter that story and tell a player to frack off, and go find their fairy tale some place else.

Although I'm still questioning some things, and I hope I had a part of steering it some way better in the past, I like Wurm. I think it has a solid base and it should stay true to it in the future, but really iron out some of the dents it apparently has (within).

After improving, you start repairing. After repairing, you start improving.

Story of my life.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope no one mind's me bringing up ancient topics, but I think its always interesting to look back at what Wurm was years ago and from that gain a greater appreciation for what it has become... 

...I believe we should always remember that the team and we as a community have made a lot of progress over the years and Wurm only continues to improve as time goes on.

 

This sums it up for me. Having playing the game a good number of years, the accelerated positive progress of the game these past few years since the hiring of the new Wurm Staff members is quite noticeable. This is what always encourages me to look forward to the unexpected positive additions to the game in the months and years ahead.

 

Just as the Wurm timers creep slowly forward to their end reward, I find the game of Wurm to be one of patience rewarded by the length of time devoted to enjoying participating within it. Not such as hard task after all, when viewed in that light.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,


 


Thx! To read the concept was absolutely awesome, and it gave me much insight.


 


Obviously this game was meant as a PvP game. Guild Wars was initially, too.


 


But then the devs had to realize that nearly nobody (or only minuscule numbers) cared about their shiny PvP glory, the stupid users much more loved the more peaceful PvE part - Betrayal!!!


 


The devs reacted with bringing more PvP, for sure. And got angry if again nobody (but some few) cared about. That made Guild Wars fail after the first few expansions, and this seriously cripples Wurm.


 


The vast majority of players just doesn't care about this "our village" stuff, doesn't care about any in-game kingdoms or gods, they just want to build their things, with the permission of their neighbors (or without), and don't think even of all this "join a party, be a part of it" stuff.


They come, pay, and expect a certain service. PvP is, for the overwhelming numbers, something as cool as boiling sheep-dung.


 


But as in any game, the competitive PvP crowd has a loud voice in the forums. They have to make threads to get their meta-game going, they need to be vocal in the forums about nerfs and buffs - that's an innate part of the PvP game!


 


PvE players don't have to do such, so only a small fraction is visible in the forums. (And even these have learned that absolutely nobody cares of PvE problems ...)


 


And here may be a serious problem. The forum doesn't reflect the Wurmian world.


 


Have fun!


  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

Thx! To read the concept was absolutely awesome, and it gave me much insight.

 

Obviously this game was meant as a PvP game. Guild Wars was initially, too.

 

But then the devs had to realize that nearly nobody (or only minuscule numbers) cared about their shiny PvP glory, the stupid users much more loved the more peaceful PvE part - Betrayal!!!

 

The devs reacted with bringing more PvP, for sure. And got angry if again nobody (but some few) cared about. That made Guild Wars fail after the first few expansions, and this seriously cripples Wurm.

 

The vast majority of players just doesn't care about this "our village" stuff, doesn't care about any in-game kingdoms or gods, they just want to build their things, with the permission of their neighbors (or without), and don't think even of all this "join a party, be a part of it" stuff.

They come, pay, and expect a certain service. PvP is, for the overwhelming numbers, something as cool as boiling sheep-dung.

 

But as in any game, the competitive PvP crowd has a loud voice in the forums. They have to make threads to get their meta-game going, they need to be vocal in the forums about nerfs and buffs - that's an innate part of the PvP game!

 

PvE players don't have to do such, so only a small fraction is visible in the forums. (And even these have learned that absolutely nobody cares of PvE problems ...)

 

And here may be a serious problem. The forum doesn't reflect the Wurmian world.

 

Have fun!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really appreciate everyone's positive feeback and insight.

 

I personally would be interested in hearing feedback/insight from the development team in regards to Wurm's progress over the years, the role the community plays in their decision making as a team, and what they each envision is the next "big" step for the game, sort of a "State of the Game Address" after they get back from their summer break. I know there is going to be a lot of feedback, both positive and negative, towards whatever decision they make in regards to the next "big" feature but I'm sure that whatever decision they do make will ulitmately be in the best interest of the game and community at large.

 

P.S.

For those interested here is the concept of Wurm version 2.0



Wurm Online will be a community-centric fantasy MMORPG fully developed in Java.
Gameplay will be free at first, but when you wish to develop your character beyond basic skills, you're going to have to pay a monthly fee.

The world will have a real economy with a fixed pool of money and resources, and almost all items in the world will be created by other players.
When the game is first launched, it will pretty much just only be a huge forest, and it will be up to the players to build the towns and create the items needed for both everyday use and more exotic practices.
Wurm Online will neither have levels nor hitpoints. Instead, you have a set of skills that define your character, and a list of any unhealed wounds the character has.

Gameplay is expected to be very down to earth and community-based for most players, with each town serving as a small community.
Towns will also remain safe as long as the computer controlled guards are alive. You won't be able to attack other players or perform any other illegal activity inside the town without first killing all the guards.
Outside the towns, however, you can do anything you want, but performing illegal activities will lower your status in the nearby villages.

 

And concept version 3.0

Gameplay



The user interface is very simple:

1. You move around with the WASD keys.
2. If you right-click on things a menu will pop up with various actions you can perform.
3. If you press F3 you will see your inventory.
4. If you double-click on an item in your inventory you select that item (a). Then when you right-click on something else (B) you attempt to use a on b.

Those are the basics you need to start playing. The rest will come over time.
What makes Wurm Online special?

For Wurm Online (henceforth called Wurm) to be something special and not just another 3D fantasy massively multiplayer game, we realized that we had to actually implement the features that players have demanded since the dawn of these types of games. Other 3D games have promised these features and still have them on their 'upcoming features' list unless they dropped them when they realized they'd never make it. Why? Because Wurm is built on technology that can make it happen and other games are not.

The first technological advantage of Wurm: it is done in Java. This means that we can reach gamers on operating systems that usually have few if any of these types of games to play. We also consider Wurm to be the first 3D java game that actually looks better graphically than most PC games while still being playable.

The second advantage: Wurm is tile-based. This means first and foremost three things:

* We have more manageable data structures
* We may stream terrain
* Line of sight in the client may be outrageous

Now, none of these possibilities are easy to implement but we have succeeded. This is the glory of Wurm and the foundation that the game rests upon.

An example of the technological advantage:
Because we have such manageable data structures, we may have millions of individual trees on one map.
For example, streaming the terrain gives us the opportunity compared to other games:
* trees and plants grow
* you can cut down trees
* and you can plant trees

Other effects are for instance:
* you can terraform by digging and dropping dirt.
* you can pave roads
* grass and other types of vegetation compete to be predominant
* you can dig out caves in the mountains
* some terrain can be converted to farmland where you grow crops of various kinds
Other features
Home and wild servers

A Wurm server is one of two types: A home or a wild server. A home server belongs to one kingdom, and nobody from another kingdom may found settlements or build guard towers on that server. Wild servers have no initial kingdom. When players found villages or build guard towers on wild servers they increase the boundaries of their kingdom.
Community

One of the things we mention most when we talk about Wurm is the community-building possibilities. Since almost everything is player made people (normally) have to cooperate in order to achieve the highest possible quality level on the things for they strive. The base of this community is a village, which is an area that players purchase and that has game-controlled guards that protect structures, creatures and items within. Villages form kingdoms, and kingdoms fight each other out on wild servers. Combined with the religion system this makes for a large scale epic scenario with real heroes and myths.
Full player-versus-player combat (pvp)

We believe that Wurm requires full pvp. The regulations around pvp and lawlessness are very intricate in Wurm. There are reputation systems and also religion that keeps bearing of your actions. The possibility to react to grief is crucial in order to maintain balance. Conflicts over resources are also driving the action forward, so settlements can declare war upon each other. There are restrictions on when you may attack without penalties, and in general it is very costly to attack someone whom the game does not consider an enemy. But it is and must be possible in Wurm.

When you fight an enemy from another kingdom you will receive, or lose, battle points. These are calculated by an Elo ranking system (similar to the one used in chess but multiplayer) to keep track of who is the most renowned warrior in the world.

Another feature of Wurm is that it is possible to steal from other players. If items are locked up inside a house with a good lock, and the house is protected by guards it is virtually impossible to steal. It is also much harder on home servers. However, an unprotected chest in the wilderness may be breached by a skilled thief who does not care about his reputation.
Skills

When you start the game you have very few skills. As soon as you start creating items or foraging for food you will receive new skills. These increase over time as you use them.
All tasks in Wurm has a difficulty. When you succeed with a task you gain skill, unless the task is too easy and you succeed by far too much. When you perform a task, more than one skill may be involved so you may gain knowledge in all those skills. Wurm contains more than one hundred different skills to excel in.
Items

Wurm has very advanced item management. Almost all items are player made from raw materials gathered or extracted from the surrounding nature or creatures. Every item has weight, damage, quality level, size, temperature, possible enchantments, a custom description, and other types of data that can make every item very unique and almost seem alive.
Structures

You can use items to build structures like houses, watch towers and roads. If you want to protect your house you can found a settlement, which covers the area and spawns guards that will hunt enemies and protect you from the surrounding wildlife.
Natural resources

There are many different natural resources spread out on a server. These resources are regional and make for local conflicts. Some resources, mainly various metals, clay, tar, and peat, but also different wood types or even a particularly flat area can be considered valuable and worth fighting or bargaining over. Metals and gems on the wild servers have higher maximum quality level and associated value than on the home servers.
Economy

Purchasing and maintaining a 'settlement deed' costs money. You can earn in-game money and use it to purchase such a deed, but the quick way is to buy some silver coins in the online web shop. These will end up in your in-game bank account that is reachable from a settlement token. Almost all money in Wurm is purchased from the online web shop so as soon as you sell something to the traders you earn money that another player has purchased in the online web shop. This is why we call it a real-world economy. The real value connection on in-game money encourages trade and hopefully gives a sense of meaningfulness that other games can lack.
Durability

Wurm is supposed to last. We are expecting it to last for at least 10 years. This means that there can be no hard caps on levels. Progress and improvements must always be possible. Therefore all skills and quality levels become logarithmically harder to improve and never naturally reaches 100, which is the maximum. Everything also slowly decays, but more linearly, so unless you repair things or practice your skills these numbers will slowly go down.

The effect of the logarithmic increase and the more linear decay is that new players have an easier task of reaching competitive levels, while hardcore players can still keep a small edge. If it takes 1 year to get to skill 90 in something, someone who has played 5 years can have skill 93. The difference is not that big but it still makes for a higher price on a merchandise.
Size

Wurm is huge. A fairly well known competitor boasts that they have the largest gaming world available. Wurm will be about twice as large once all servers are in place. You will be able to terraform every part of it.

Now, size alone only makes for boring vastness, which is why we will not start new servers until there is player base for it. One server is 16x16 kilometres, consisting of millions of tiles. Every server has a unique map, and we can link 256 servers to each other. Once all servers are up Wurm will have a world size of about 68000 square kilometres and be inhabited by a few hundred thousand players.

The current method of transportation between servers is swimming, but boats are planned. Passing from one server to another takes a few seconds, so it is practically seamless.
Anti-cheating

The possibility to cheat in online games is detrimental and quickly makes the game pointless. We have had security in mind from the beginning and tested various ways of detecting and countering cheating.
The current system handles movement cheats, item duplication, command flooding, command constructions, and macroing. The right-click and select method during fighting is specifically intended to make it impossible to defeat an opponent by performing perfect mouse moves calculated by some client software.
Since we stream the terrain from the server you can not explore the map in offline mode.
Statistics and history

Major events like the founding of new villages or the slaying of dragons are recorded in the area log that is accessible from settlement tokens. Every settlement also has a log that records the important events in that settlement. This means that the players literally write history with their actions. You can also receive special titles when you reach a certain degree of skill or perform a particularly unusual task.

We are looking at ways to display top skills and battle ranks on our website in a good manner.
Religion

In Wurm there are four deities. You can decide to follow a deity, and if you have enough faith then you will gain bonuses in that deities 'domain'. When you build an altar dedicated to your deity you will strengthen the influence that deity has over the area. That influence is called a deities 'domain'. Your devotion to your deity is measured in 'faith'. You gain faith by praying periodically. After a while you gain no more faith unless you decide to become a priest. A priest in Wurm is very limited when it comes to performing mundane and physical tasks, but they can instead cast rare, powerful spells.
Champions and Realdeath

There is a remote possibility to achieve the status of champion of a deity in order to perform some kind of heroic task. To become a champion you first must become a priest for a while in order to prove yourself worthy. Upon becoming a champion you will receive permanent bonuses in various skills. You will however also have 'realdeath'. In Wurm this means that you may die only three more times. The fourth time it is game over for that character. The history log will note your death for everyone to see, you will be logged off and may not log on with the character again.
Goals and quests

Wurm does not have static quests à la 'get me the Ring of Power and I give you the spell lightning bolt'. We believe that it destroys the immersion when everyone does the same quests over and over. People have lots to do anyway and need help from each other instead.

What higher goals are there to strive for in this world then?

As with all of this kind of game and world, you set these goals yourself. Creating the largest village, building the largest structure, mining the longest tunnel, becoming a champion or a world-renowned weapon smith or the player with most battle points can be such goals.

The game does have a back story. It revolves around two conflicts: The first is the conflict between the kingdom of Jenn-Kellon and the kingdom of Mol-Rehan. The other conflict is between the followers of the deity Libila and the followers of the other three deities. These conflicts are primarily played out on the wild servers, making those servers a more dangerous place. Players have a direct influence over these conflicts, and can discover artefacts that can tip the scale in favor of their deity or kingdom. Over time, more and more possibilities for single as well as groups of players to have real effect on the story will be available.

Maybe you are the kind of player who likes staying at home tending your crops and livestock, watch the pretty sunsets and chat to the neighbour about the weather. Maybe you have the urge to turn to the dark side and pillage and plunder, and maybe you desire to drive the forces of evil back to their holes, writing your name in history.
Whatever it is, we will try to make Wurm the place for you.

And whatever you choose, one day you can be the one who decide the fate of Wurm!

Welcome!

Edited by Laerck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the first concept seems to have been written before pve was even in existence; let me just say that pvp / raids don't happen like that every day, some bigger names hardly ever die because of broken mechanics that let them pretty much avoid combat or stack buffs on buffs on buffs with no counters or drawbacks; also, the village aspect has always been kinda bittersweet considering most of the newbies I help into the game who actually stay and play eventually quit, leaving me to continue the process - it's fun while it lasts, but then they move on and I stay (just personal experience)


 


the terraforming in this game is innovative and unique and should be capitalized upon; however, it went several years with no major changes


 


the pve and pvp sides of this game are so different they may as well have different teams working on them creating separate and unique content for either side that caters to each side's needs rather than just releasing blanket updates; some of these actually hurt one side or the other through unforeseen consequences or things the devs were warned about but ignored (ie. multistory made raiding a joke - spend 8+ hours trying to raid when the enemies will just log stuff off on alts; pve taming is because some noobs in pvp didn't have high enough taming to have good pets); now we have huge debates and lots of strife because most features are released on all servers but only truly benefit the play styles on one side or the other, leading to arguments about technicalities rather than reality (all of us benefit vs. some of us benefit, respectively)


 


the art team usually does not disappoint - you have to remember that a small indie team doesn't have the time or resources for AAA level high res textures, high poly, perfectly smooth models, cg effects, and the works; however, the new art style, slight controversy over swords, and recent boat model debacle combined with previously present signs of financial burden make me wonder if the art team's budget has been cut


 


there are several things that are inexcusable in any full-price, full-release game, including positional desync, the massive memory leaks, and bugs that can cost literally hundreds or thousands of dollars / euros to players in item losses, and poor (nearly nonexistent) pvp balance


 


when dealing with suggestions, you have to remember that most players (in wurm and in other games) have absolutely no clue how to properly balance or create a game because they can only take into account their own best interests and are unable to disadvantage themselves (which must happen for proper balance); on top of that the devs are the only ones who know about technical limitations and are the only ones who can work around them, thus creating an even more difficult situation


 


obviously, new content needs to be added to keep the game interesting; however, up until recently it consisted mainly of maps which spread the community thinner (and Xanadu is still a steaming mess of glitches); most other stuff doesn't receive enough testing or consideration for balance (ie. meditation, 11 Sept. 2014 patch as a whole sucked, moon metal, shield bashing nerf, countless archery nerfs, etc.); bridges went surprisingly well, but there were still some gamebreaking clipping issues that led to some deaths


 


overall the game is a good concept; the implementation is often lacking


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wossoo

Its just my personal opinion that Rolf is spending too much time tweaking the fighting system when many more players would benefit from new features such as:-

*Multi level housing, 
*New craftable items 
*Boats/mounts.
*More creatures
*New resources, etc.

Beating away at the fighting system makes wurm feel like it isnt going anywhere anymore.

I would like to see how many other people feel the same way   :) 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

EliasTheCrimson

 

Balancing the fighting system is vital to Wurm, none of the other features are

 

 

 

Priceless PvP since 2008 I see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this