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Kegan

Trader Poll on Xanadu

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I'm fine so long as the rare coins are desperate from trader funds....

But something about rare coins being way more common on Xanadu tells me having traders will take away from most players and end up going to the trader deed owners, like on every other server.

Xanadu has lag but no traders. How much fun will it be to have same BS trader deeds and the lag?

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Reductio ad ridiculum. You're mocking something because you don't see the connection, and are appealing to others to attempt to ridicule it. This happens rather often on this game also. The much vaunted 'community'.

blah.. blah..

Don't play a victim here, was you who tried to strengthen your argument with the Word "slavery"..

I ask you once more:

"Oh come on! You are seriously comparing real world slavery with the game, where people VOLUNTARILY make deals(yes the terms are agreed even before the deal has been made)."

Edited by rixk
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I am sure we will see all the naysayers in here soon but i am guessing there are loads more people on Xanadu that would like to have them there then the few against it.. that we will soon see here. (the ones against things are always the most vocal) 

Please, get real here. You are for Traders and have always lobbied for them being available to be placed on Xanadu as well. The thing is that by understanding the Trader draining mechanic vast empires of them can be placed on "Trader deeds", as you have done on other servers. The profits from one pay for the next, then those 2 pay for 2 more and it multiplies. This option is available to anyone who takes advantage of it, which although many don't, some such as you do.

 

Then all the silver drained from these Traders gives a purchasing advantage to those who use this system extensively, since they will spend freely where others with more limited silver will not. This then inflates the price of items for everyone and assures that those who drain Traders with a vast system of Trader deeds will have the ability to obtain all the best items in the game at minimal expenditure of real life funds in comparison to others.

 

This system is then what distorts the game "economy" into a completely unbalanced system to which outside world economic theories do not properly apply in comparison, other than perhaps a troubled economy in decline.

 

 

In this game, those 'priviledged' people, are the ones who 'bought in' to these faucets and used poor game mechanics against the devs to keep a monopoly on certain things. (Or tried to.) The devs have been slowly trying to take those things away...(By removing traders, allowing uniques to respawn, the rare coins from stuff, things of that nature...)

 

To answer your last question, it's been much improved IMO...the biggest problem we are seeing for trading now is that because of the massive distances on Xanadu, it takes hours of travel, so many people are just not doing the trades that they otherwise would have unless it's something that can be mailed (Semi-instant, half hour or so to show up.), or a 'bulk' load which can take hours of sailing to be brought and actually has value, which requires both parties to play 'cat/mouse' games trying to hook up with eachother to pay/deliver. (I had a semi good couple weeks where I was able to sell 4 wagons, a 50 QL plate set, and 10 large crates...a few weeks back...)

 

I'm not sure where Rolf should move those specific items that only traders sell/which are semi rare...but from what I hear (Possible hearsay here), they basically made the traders now 'leech off eachother locally'...so basically if you have a trader now...it still pulls in decent amounts if you're in a active area...because it's basically leeching from the upkeeps of all the nearby deeds + activity in the area (Possibly the amount of people that interact with it?)...which is why the trader huts in the middle of nowhere aren't paying off anymore...but the folks who are still in active areas are just basically hoovering up money from their neighbors. Money they didn't really 'earn', except by spamming out a few high value items and selling them to them for the coin. (And 'maintaining the ratio' or whatever it's called on them.) Neither of which takes much 'effort' on their part.

 

How does that benefit the game?

A good analysis here. Don't let others sidetrack you on the "slavery" point in an attempt to diminish the truth about what has actually transpired with the Trader draining system in the past. A common tactic in an attempt to take the focus off the heart of the problem well presented within your posts.

 

One nice thing about Trader placement by players being unavailable upon Xanadu is that these vacant minimal sized Trader draining deeds have not been set up within the more populated areas taking up those spots that others would like to place their own active deeds that they will live upon and develop.

 

In light of all the abuse of Traders being taken advantage on other servers, why Rolf would now consider allowing Trader placement upon Xanadu is something I can't quite understand. Add onto that no explanation being provided, the mystery remains undisclosed and only open to speculation. Of course this is hardly a concern of players such as the OP who are more than happy that it is being considered, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

 

=Ayes=

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I voted no.  loved having a ton of traders on deli and cele, helped pay the ton of deeds I had upkeep and spent profit buying bulk from others.


 


but 100% moved to xanadu. and really liking not having traders.  from once having 20 deeds dwon to now only 1 main deed and one close by mining deed. not spending a ton of time traveling to the traders for the few silvers.


 


also no need to have a ton of wasted land used up just for extra traders ,  which may prevent new- newish players from finding a nice spots to deed and become good nieghbours


 


seeing what cele and deli looked like with so many trader deeds around.  no thanks. Xanadu is nice having all this open land. FEELS LIKE CANADA vs US congestion wise lol


if they were to come in i'd like to see them with 100% tax rate so all profit goes to upkeep only. and not disbandable upkeep, so we don't see deeds going up for a few months disbanding then going right back up


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Why are they even considering this? It brings literally 0 good to the game. It's like a cancer and I thought we fought it off for good but it seems like we need a little more chemo. If the cancer actually ends up coming back I'm taking a trip straight back to celeb.

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I personally cannot make an informed decision without knowing the full mechanics of Traders. This is an extremely polarizing topic that requires a very detailed explanation on how the Trader works and how it is currently "exploited". More importantly, how it will be introduced on Xanadu. With the large amount of new players on Xanadu that may not have a clue what a Trader is and what people have done with them in the past, they may click "Yes" by default. So when we get those Traders due to overwhelming positive response, we will be blamed when we don't like the impact. "You told us you wanted them..."


 


When I know the facts, I can give you my vote.

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'Breaking even'/getting a little extra IS the problem. People were just building whole deeds just to plant trader huts on them and hide them all over. I saw hundreds of dead deeds when I was running around that were just there wasting server space on a tiny server. (Pristine)

 

With all due respect, those mini deeds were put up to generate a lot more silver than just to break even or maybe a few coppers extra.  Payback time would be 5 years or longer I think--not going to happen.  Of course the deeds could still be placed by a few people not understanding the current mechanics but I find that somewhat unlikely to generate a problem.

 

The root of the problem now is that no one knows for sure how traders work after the changes Rolf made some time ago.  I have my ideas on how I think they work based on the observations of others, but I have no network of traders, not even one actually, to personally test them.  Nevertheless, I'm pretty confident there is no longer any economic incentive for players to place mini deeds all over the map.  IF I am correct on this, much of the hysteria on the forums against them on Xan is totally misplaced.  You can't look to the other servers for examples when the traders there were all placed before the changes that made mini trader deeds all over the map useless. 

 

Nevertheless, I still don't like traders since I don't agree with the mechanics as I understand them.  Therefore, they should stay totally off Xan until it is finally sorted out what they do and how they do it and this information is well understood and accepted by the players.  Then and only then can an intelligent conversation be had on if they should go on Xan.

 

Rolf gives us a poll to vote on traders for Xan but no one knows for sure exactly how traders now work except Rolf.  So what we are voting on is private theories and/or mucked up ideas.  Therefore, the poll is useless and should not be relied upon in any manner.   

Edited by GoldFever
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Agree with the last two points - we don't know what we are voting on. Devs can you please pay attention to this.


 


Nevertheless, I have voted no - even though I had two trader deeds in the past, I always thought the system was a bad one that only benefitted investors. If it was actually supposed to represent a small investment into wurm with a long-term dividend, then that is what was achieved for a while. Now however the return is a lot more sporadic (I still have one trader on my old main deed). With that in mind, I am not sure whether I would place traders on xanadu.


 


What I am interested to know is - are the public traders at starter towns being drained for huge amounts of king's coffers upkeep that must exist? Is that being exploited? Or are they not drainable.


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What I am interested to know is - are the public traders at starter towns being drained for huge amounts of king's coffers upkeep that must exist? Is that being exploited? Or are they not drainable.

I would assume so i did check on a few of them and they had a lot of JC god statues..etc on them and high ql ones too so they must be doing something. 

Edited by Kegan

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Using the economic advisor title on Epic, in the past I checked when people would get rare coins from hunting and it took it from the kings coffers that goes to traders, so unless something is bugged or whatever, it takes money from traders

 

I find it highly suspect that you look at only one side of the coin. Turn the coin over and you will see that traders will take from the kings coffers and reduce the number of rare coins and the amount of irons garnered by selling at tokens. Traders will actually cost the average WURMian that depends on rare coins and irons from selling at tokens real life money because they will need some way to replace that lost income that will be diverted to a handful of people who milk their traders if they are ever allowed. 

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I find it highly suspect that you look at only one side of the coin. Turn the coin over and you will see that traders will take from the kings coffers and reduce the number of rare coins and the amount of irons garnered by selling at tokens. Traders will actually cost the average WURMian that depends on rare coins and irons from selling at tokens real life money because they will need some way to replace that lost income that will be diverted to a handful of people who milk their traders if they are ever allowed. 

That's why i suggested in the suggestion section that they all be separate and equal so none of the systems can take from the other. (just because you don't like/use one system does not mean the players that do should be cheated so separate shares are the only fair way to go)

 

Edit: link to that suggestion..

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/125507-money-redistribution-pool-separate-shares/

Edited by Kegan

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Will be voting no three times when I get off work. I've never owned a trader but it seems like a flawed system to redistribute coin back into the game. Truthfully I like the selling back to token the best as it also helps keep the server cleaned up some.

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My problem with the poll is how many newbs are going to think a trader is a merchant?


 


I'm also a big no on this. All it is is greed.


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I personally cannot make an informed decision without knowing the full mechanics of Traders. This is an extremely polarizing topic that requires a very detailed explanation on how the Trader works and how it is currently "exploited". More importantly, how it will be introduced on Xanadu. With the large amount of new players on Xanadu that may not have a clue what a Trader is and what people have done with them in the past, they may click "Yes" by default. So when we get those Traders due to overwhelming positive response, we will be blamed when we don't like the impact. "You told us you wanted them..."

 

When I know the facts, I can give you my vote.

 

Yes, that is a problem. A lot of people could vote that don't know what a private trader is and how it works. From CA help chat alone we had people voting yes because they thought the public traders at the starting towns would be removed when they voted with no. Other newish players didn't know the difference between a merchant and a trader and voted because they thought it was about merchants.

 

I still would expect a majority for the no vote however.

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My problem with the poll is how many newbs are going to think a trader is a merchant?

 

I'm also a big no on this. All it is is greed.

I am not sure why one system is labeled as greed and the others are not they are all just money redistribution systems in the game.  

 

Should the players with 2000 tile farms be labeled greedy too or ones that gather all day long harvesting rare coins? I dont want to have a second job in the game to get my share of the money so i buy that right with a trader. 

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That's why i suggested in the suggestion section that they all be separate and equal so none of the systems can take from the other. (just because you don't like/use one system does not mean the players that do should be cheated so separate shares are the only fair way to go)

 

Edit: link to that suggestion..

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/125507-money-redistribution-pool-separate-shares/

 

A favorite argument of the privileged few. As vacuous as space. 

 

Of course you are assuming that everyone has the real life money to be able to buy a trader. You are sadly mistaken and that is only one part of many that makes traders unfair to the majority of the community. 

Edited by Sarcaticous
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Of course you are assuming that everyone has the real life money to be able to buy a trader. You are sadly mistaken and that is only one part of many that makes traders unfair to the majority of the community. 

Not everyone has the time to farm all day or gather coins either so what about them they just miss out?

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It's kinda hard to make an informed vote when we don't have a clue how traders currently work on Xana (they where changed to payout even less then traders on other servers), how they are planned to work, or even what CC intends to do with them.


 


 


So I default to "no". 


 


I would support something that lets ppl buy and place traders but said purchases must accept it is set-in-stone and crystal-clear that


1. These new traders will get no redistribution wealth. ZERO!


2. They will sell trader trinkets and you can drain the 25% of purchased trinkets value off trader.


3. They will "trade" items. Further, implement a better supply demand pricing and change them so the trader will always accept a trade in its favor.


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no they are separate.. well say the pools is split up so 20% is sell, 20% is traders, 20% rare coins..etc  (the % is a made up number but that is how i understand it to be)  

 

As I remember it, there is one pool. Although, there is supposed to be a reserve on the pool in favor of the Traders. 

 

to put it another way...

* traders have access to 100% of pool.

* rare coins and sell feature have access to the upper 80% of the pool. 80% is made up and I"m not sure what exactly it is. So when the redistribution pool drops to say 19% of its monthly total, sell and rare coins are bust until next month. Also, it may not be next month either as it could use some kind of running average.

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[Traders / "sell" function] will actually cost the average WURMian that depends on .. coins and irons from selling [at tokens / to traders] real life money because they will need some way to replace that lost income that will be diverted to a handful of people who milk the [system]. 

 

I've edited this to show that you pretty much just made the case for both sides. This is actually what some people were so vocal about when Xanadu launched: "traders supported my deed upkeep, now I will have to pay for it with real money, or find some other way to finance it"

 

Money redistribution is an odd system, I don't understand why the game needs it at all. Free players can play without ever needing in game currency, but they can always earn it through bulk sales. Does foraging and "sell"ing really make more in game cash than good old-fashioned trading?

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I am not sure why one system is labeled as greed and the others are not they are all just money redistribution systems in the game.  

 

Should the players with 2000 tile farms be labeled greedy too or ones that gather all day long harvesting rare coins? I dont want to have a second job in the game to get my share of the money so i buy that right with a trader. 

 

The problem is you have traders placed all over the place on deeds specifically to have a trader. They litter the coastline. They litter inland. There's nothing on most of those deeds other than a 3x3 or 1x1 building with a trader inside. The problem is not the people who place 1 or 2 of these traders. The problem is the people who place multiples of them all over the place. I've even been guilty of this in the past so I'm not even just saying it to resent those who do. It's greed in the end, even on my own part.

 

So much good land is then claimed and wasted all over nothing because of people who are greedy and end up placing all of these trader deeds everywhere.

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The problem is you have traders placed all over the place on deeds specifically to have a trader. They litter the coastline. They litter inland. There's nothing on most of those deeds other than a 3x3 or 1x1 building with a trader inside. The problem is not the people who place 1 or 2 of these traders. The problem is the people who place multiples of them all over the place. I've even been guilty of this in the past so I'm not even just saying it to resent those who do. It's greed in the end, even on my own part.

 

So much good land is then claimed and wasted all over nothing because of people who are greedy and end up placing all of these trader deeds everywhere.

I guess you missed my suggestion then? http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/125487-trader-proposal/

 

I am not the enemy here i know the downsides of them and have put in check most all problems with them in my suggestion but i am pro trader they just need some love. 

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Yeah bother going through all those changes and fixes to benefit a few people.

I, again, seriously do not get why they´re constantly out on fixing stuff that is not broken. Everybody lived perfectly fine on xanadu for over a year without traders and now they suddenly want to reimplement them? Just why? What is their motive because it will literally do nothing else than cause more trouble. Everything is fine the way it is.

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Yeah bother going through all those changes and fixes to benefit a few people. I, again, seriously do not get why they´re constantly out on fixing stuff that is not broken. Everybody lived perfectly fine on xanadu for over a year without traders and now they suddenly want to reimplement them? Just why? What is their motive because it will literally do nothing else than cause more trouble. Everything is fine the way it is.

It would benefit anyone with a premium character that wanted to buy into the money redistribution system and not take all the time needed to use the other options. 

 

Edit: As far as their motivation i guess they took a loss on income from players not buying trader contracts for one thing...and that i asked, lol (kidding on the i asked part but could not resist) 

Edited by Kegan

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I wish the trader system worked as an auction system with a fee :/ A npc that you buy that enables you to have a look at regular merchants and buy from them remotely, like some people in other topics suggested. Right now most people avoid looking at merchants because most of them have either trolling items or ridiculously high prices (making looking at them a waste of time). I am leveling platesmithing but I have to make my silver spending a lot of time on making rares instead of making and selling plate sets because of that and it feels like being a craftsman without a priest is a waste of time leveling skills :/  I also want to level other crafting skills and sell my goods but merchants store better than they sell.  I would not have wanted an server-wide trade npc if people passing through actually looked at merchants but they do not and I can see why since I feel the same after looking at so many merchants and end up buying through mailing instead.


 


Why not make traders server-wide merchants that are connected to the regular merchants(and expensive to buy one permanently of course), make the npc have a cut from each purchase and put that money into the pool, making the traders have their own pool instead of draining or getting a percent from what belongs to token sells and rare coins. And the owner of the trader the purchase is made from could get a percentage of that cut directly, as well as the one he gets from the pool (or no pool and just direct cut to the owner).


 


With this, people would actually put their traders on a visible place instead of hiding them in shacks, so that people passing by come and use them as server-wide merchants and they get some cut from that purchase as the owner of that trader.


 


Traders would only be used to purchase and regular merchants would still be the way to put items, traders would be the way to remotely buy from the merchants with a percentage fee (like 5 copper for buying a 50 copper item and 3 copper for buying a 30 copper one for example, less or more) instead of a set fee like mailing has.


Edited by Simyaci
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