Not Only should traders NOT be enabled on Xanadu, they should be replaced

[Etherdrifter 2,517]

Oops, wrong reply to the wrong thread.

 

+1 to some kind of replacement global market.  -1 to traders ever seeing the light of day on Xanadu.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Etherdrifter

[Pandalet 1,848]

I don't play on Xanadu, so I can't speak for the current poll, opening traders there or not, etc.  I'm ok with the current trader setup on my own server - we have 1 trader on our reasonably active deed, and he just about keeps the deed upkeep going, most months (a few silver).  I like being able to check in on him from time to time, and finding he's suddenly come into a handful of copper makes me feel like I won the lottery.  I'm not sure what the payout used to be, but now that there are coins from foraging, killing, selling, etc. it seems like things are pretty well balanced.  Certainly, some determined foraging seems to give better results than traders, from what I hear in chat.

 

In short, traders seem ok to me, and really, even if they weren't, there are other aspects of the game that need dev time a whole lot more.

[Zetuka 118]

A way i see to balance the trader system is to match the money the traders give back with the number of active premium players mayor or citizen of the deed the trader is on.

That way traders would support only active villages and it would mean the end of trader deeds.

 

An other way would be to focus to money distribution with other way such as the rare coins.

 

In any way, money distribution should be see as a reward.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Zetuka

[Clatius 455]

 

Abandon Traders and put in a REAL TRADE SYSTEM that is PLAYER DRIVEN.

 

+1 Excellent idea fair and open to player that dont have rl money to spend for a trader.

[Szai 82]

I want to throw out an idea. Since as it is Xanadu doesnt run on the standard trader system, and the only option seems to be either continue this way or do what everyone else is doing. Why dont we have a new system. Im sure there are better new ideas than mine but it seems simple and fair imo. A lottery system, where a portion of this money that is paid in taxes and such is given to a given to a few(1 seems like too much money) randomly select people who either belong to xanadu deed or buy additional tickets. As it is, i think most people on Xanadu dont want traders, because they moved here, if they were attached to that system they wouldnt be here. I think this would be an exciting thing for people to, where anyone could just get a spike in silver each month with little effort. I mean im sure between the investment and some effort the people who have traders earn thier money and im not saying its not fair that way but i dont like the clutter and i think its bad to view the only solution by things that already exist.

[fonziejac 9]

-1 this sounds like some version of WOW Auction house or Runescape Grand Exchange.

 

Traders are open to everyone, in fact they place traders in starter towns already, I dont know how it can be more newb friendly then that.

 

You shouldnt be able to see what traders have on them unless your AT the trader. there would be no point to traveling then!

 

This is a sandbox, player driven game. If you want game devs to dictate where, and how trade takes place. Go play WOW

 

There is a simple way to sell bulk goods, its called forums, merchants+keys, in game chat, we have many options.

 

Regardless of whether traders are implemented or not, DONT implement a centralized trading platform, it will kill things like markets, forum trade activity, and hurt the sandbox, player driven goal of the game!

Did you even play Runescape before the Grand Exchange?

 

Game was choking on scammers and bots they had to take crazy steps to stop it (Remember free trade removal)

 

I once spent over an hour selling 3 Rune Scimitars because everybody was trying to scam me.

 

The G.E. cleaned up the game and made trading faster and safer it worked for Runescape it can work for Wurm.

 

Trading bulk items in Wurm is horribly handicapped by long distance that are sometimes hard to navigate with outdated maps,lack of roads, overpowered wildlife and even the weather making most kinds boats worthless. 

 

If you like the current trade system it will still be there for you nobody is forcing anything on you.

[Garit 366]

Sorry Lord Sunvortex but it's a -1 from me on this one.

 

I like the trader system as it is.....it's been like this for years and is not like any other system in any other MMO i have played.

Remember that Wurm Online is NOT like any other game out there and that's why we love it so much.

Some players on here are saying stuff like "Oh the trade system / Traders should be like WOW....or should be like Runscape ect..." but Wurm is not like these games or any other and nor should it be.

 

Some points here....

1. Available and open to all players ( NO PAY TO PLAY )                                                    .... we have player Merchants from this.....and some Traders.

2. A way to view items available for purchase REMOTELY                                                 .... Great idea and should be part of Merchants aswell (some sort of remote stock screen).

3. Static, permanent, non player dependent areas where trade can be conducted              ....Again great idea....why not.

4. A simple way to sell bulk goods and setup buy orders and a way to fill those buy orders..... We already have this setup on the forum.

 

While i can see some points that are good idea's none of this (the way i see it) has any need to change the Trader system at all.

 

And before anyone jumps up and says "OH HERE WE GO....GARIT IS JUST SAYING THIS BECAUSE HE OWNS A TRADER THAT HE MILKS FOR FREE CASH" well you would be dead wrong.....i DON'T have a Trader AND i DON'T sail around traders i know of draining them.

[Marshlander 188]

 

Trading bulk items in Wurm is horribly handicapped by long distance that are sometimes hard to navigate with outdated maps,lack of roads, overpowered wildlife and even the weather making most kinds boats worthless. 

It's called PvE for a reason, you know. Not "play the interface". And yes, each and every aspect could and should be improved, but they shouldn't be scrapped from the trade experience. There are little enough reasons to leave your deed as it is, and player/merchant trade are an important reason to do so for now.

 

If you like the current trade system it will still be there for you nobody is forcing anything on you.

That's a thoughtless statement. If markets move to a Global Auction interface, then you MUST participate in order to find a buyer. People will adopt things not because they are better, but because they are more convenient.

 

I think we should get new, better mechanics for player-to-player trade, but nothing tied to traders. Let them become like the bartenders - something you go to once or twice at the starter deeds, then forget about.

[Brocules 89]

Traders as a source of income to the owner wouldnt be my idea, and the one trader i have (who came with the deed), is public now.

 

Develop a decent ingame auction system. Thats all i want (for now). Bulk transactions can remain as they are, just to reflect reality....

Edited June 18, 2015 by Brocules

[sunsvortex 599]

Sorry Lord Sunvortex but it's a -1 from me on this one.

 

I like the trader system as it is.....it's been like this for years and is not like any other system in any other MMO i have played.

Remember that Wurm Online is NOT like any other game out there and that's why we love it so much.

Some players on here are saying stuff like "Oh the trade system / Traders should be like WOW....or should be like Runscape ect..." but Wurm is not like these games or any other and nor should it be.( Structurally, -  WURM is nearly identical to EVE Online. At the very least EVE would be the closest analog. I would most certainly borrow aspects of thier trade system and plug them straight in to WURM without hesitation or issue)

 

Some points here....

1. Available and open to all players ( NO PAY TO PLAY )                                                    .... we have player Merchants from this.....and some Traders. ( You missed the part in BOLD CAPITAL Letters)

2. A way to view items available for purchase REMOTELY                                                 .... Great idea and should be part of Merchants aswell (some sort of remote stock screen).

3. Static, permanent, non player dependent areas where trade can be conducted              ....Again great idea....why not.

4. A simple way to sell bulk goods and setup buy orders and a way to fill those buy orders..... We already have this setup on the forum. (out of game, half mechanic, crutch, lazy dev interface, half measure, long in the tooth, excuse for not doing it right.)

 

While i can see some points that are good idea's none of this (the way i see it) has any need to change the Trader system at all. (Traders and Merchants constitute what passes for a trade system in WURM. The removal of both is where I hope we are headed.)

 

And before anyone jumps up and says "OH HERE WE GO....GARIT IS JUST SAYING THIS BECAUSE HE OWNS A TRADER THAT HE MILKS FOR FREE CASH" well you would be dead wrong.....i DON'T have a Trader AND i DON'T sail around traders i know of draining them.

If you dont have a trader, why do you care?

Traders are a pyramid scheme. Time for them to go as well as merchants and be replaced with a trade system.

And they sure as hell have no business being turned on, on xanadu.

 

Just as a point of clarity - Even though traders and merchants are what passes for a trade system, they are in actuality a money redistribution system. In WURMs case, reverse Robin Hood.

We allready have a money redistribution system in the form of Foraging, Botonizing, ect ect. There is no need for another.

 

There is however, very much a need for a trade system.

Edited June 18, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Keenan 5,539]

1) Xanadu has a lot of untouched land because it's huge and some folks tend to be on the lazy side. (Like me). The areas of Xanadu close to water or major hubs (like starter cities) are still riddled with the decaying structures and paved areas of lost settlements. That's just how it goes, traders or no.

 

2) MrGARY is right.

 

3) The trade system proposed by the OP sounds more like dumbing down Wurm Online and making it like every other MMO out there. This gets a -1. I do believe that we need a trade system, especially for easier trade of bulk commodities, but a globally accessible system is not the answer. A more robust merchant system would be, and perhaps a Merchant class of skills that allow you to see more detail into pricing (such as the average price for an item on player merchants, which would have to some how filter out people using merchants as personal storage, and the average price (minus mail cost) that an item was sold for via COD).

 

The problem is that your suggestion doesn't mesh with the way Wurm works currently. A system based upon skill and that still requires travel would work better. The ability for merchants to be linked to BSB's and/or crates to sell and purchase bulk goods would be a great start. I had started writing up a document detailing a system like this, but I ended up neglecting the idea. I might finish it and post it. (It had to do with containers with in a 3x3, merchant in center, and containers in the player's vehicle within that 3x3).

 

As for the way traders work now - I do agree that they could use a change to make them more viable. If there were some way to track player-to-player (or merchant) transactions and play off of that economy, rather than what the "King" is making, that would be quite a bit better I think. How to do that? I have no idea.

[sunsvortex 599]

OK another point for clarity. The OP was NOT a suggestion, it is an outline of what any decent trade system should look like. If you want to see the actual trade system suggestion Its here - TRADE SYSTEM SUGGESTION

 

The Trading Post

 

This would need to be a critical piece of infrastructure and should be preplaced by devs and marked on the map. Players do not create them nor can they buy and place them. They are the place where trade takes place, they are stable and always available. They represent a  trade hub of a local economy. Players that have deeds within its "area of influence" aka (AOI) have an icon that they can click on to open up the trading post. Within the trading post window one would see all the goods people have listed for sale, the names of the people that have them for sale, and its all local. If you do not own a deed OR are not a villager of said deed, within the area of influence of the Trading Post you may not place items for sale, but you may buy those items. (More on this later) will be charged an import tax on top of your sale price. The tax will be a variable % determined by players in the AOI of the trading post ranging from say 0 to 10% as an example. Taxes from the sale of imports are held in the Trading Post and can be used to buy policies(buffs) that affect the deeds located within the local Trading Posts AOI.

 

Selling Your Goods

Spoiler

 

 

How to Buy Goods, Browse Goods, and Check Availability of Goods

Spoiler

 

 

Buy Orders

Spoiler

 

 

So now we have a base infrastructure

We have a way to see everything thats available locally, server wide and globally.

 

We can purchase those items and do not have all the extra logistics involved of is the player online, are they going to be online when I arrive, what happens if I cant make it there in x amount of time. Your items are instantly available and ready for pickup at your leisure.

 

Items that are sold can be done so while the seller is offline and no one is completely dependent on who is online at any given time.

 

We have permanent places of trade, not dependent on players, but highly player driven. These trading posts will always be avaiable and always have the same location. Stability for planning.

 

We have only created 2 things that must be developed - A super mailbox (Trading Post), and a way to package bulk items. and yet now have an infrastructure that can be built upon to facilitate a good trading system.

 

A special note on AOI

AOI can be as easy as saying -when you place your deed the closest Trading post will be your Local trading post. If you happen to place your deed token the same distance from 2 Trading Posts then youll get a choice between the two. Again this is determined at deed placement.

 

Fleshing Out Trade (Input Output)

Spoiler

 

 

Trade Guilds

 

An optional addition would be to tie in the voting system to make a local trade guild. Once you reach say 80 skill in Trading you are allowed to vote in the trade guild on policies that would affect your local area trade. If you are the mayor of a deed then you can vote in the Local Trade Guild on policies that would affect all deeds in the local trading posts AOI. For instance You could vote to allow people from other tradingposts AOI to sell items in your local AOI and add an import tax to everything they sell. You could vote to install a monopoly on an item, say Stone Bricks. What this would do is auto set the price for stone bricks for everyone that sells them in your local Trading Post. Maybe you could vote to install an export tax for locals that sell thier goods elsewhere, so that when it is sold that tax is either eaten up By CC or distributed back into the local system. there are all kinds of possibilities using policies to create very interesting trading setups. Taxes gained through policies are available to the trade guild to purchase buffs that affect all deeds in the local AOI. They last 3 months and must be voted in and funded using taxes gained through trade. Funding must be voted in and applied every 3 months or the buff is removed.

 

Part 2

 

So now that we have a base trading infrastructure we need to do a couple more things to really tie everything up with a bow.

 

1. We need a way to handle Individual Item sales

2. we need a way to tie in the PVP side

3. Some better cross server logic -ie why go cross server.

 

Individual Item Sales

 

I purposely stayed away from an auction house setting in the first part just so we could explore getting a very basic and fundamental system in place and look to see how it might function. However, individual item sales in an auction house setting I think work best for the largest majority of players in the gaming industry so ultimately it should be built in. Since nearly every MMo' in existence has an auction house I dont think it needs any explanation except to say it should not need any packaging to place it on the Auction house and those items bought must be picked up at the trading post in which they were bought, meaning if you are in Trading post x and you purchase an item from trading post y then you need to travel to trading post y to pick it up....no auto mailing. Ok so why no automailing, as right now we can mail a lot of items? Because were trying to enforce and support local economies. In my setup I really want to force local economies and local professions. It could be that ultimately its better to auto mail the individual items but never ever should bulk items be auto mailed. The idea of auto mailing items is an arguable point and both sides have a fairly good argument.

 

Now since an auction house is a bit more complex coding it could wait and be done in a two phase implementation, getting the base structure in first to see how things work, and make any adjustments. Once thats done one could go in with the auctionhouse to complete the setup.

 

Tieing in the PVP Side

 

This seperation of pvp from pve is odd as hell...it always has been. Trade is definitely a way to bridge that gap as well as give the potential for more pve players participating in pvp. So in order for this to work both pve and pvp sides need something of great value to the other. Currently the pvp side has all kinds of goodies that are regularly brought over to the pve side. The same is not true for the pve side, We have nothing of value to them. The pvp side can get everything the pve side can and a lot more. So we need to address this imbalance. There needs to be a lot of valuable items that can be exported and not just limit it to towers and wagons and banners. There needs to be items unique to each server. Maybe its a food source, maybe its ores, maybe its ship styles, maybe its a construction technique. It really could be anything at all. As a start maybe make a handful of server unique items for each server that have some value to the pvp servers. Ill simply stick to saying these items can only be made upon thier respective server and leave it at that for the moment.

 

The items really need to be useful as aesthetics while maybe popular to a handful on the pvp side are not really the greatest impetus for trade. So Lets list a few possibilities and some possible effects.

 

Feast - Produced on Xanadu - gives huge boost to CR and a boost to HP and Stam. Lasts x amount of time. (Example of food based items)

Catamaran - produced on Celebration - small fast ship that only holds 2 players but can carry 5 PC's. Very high rate of speed in any wind. Very weak and can easily be demoed.(Example of ship type items)

Interlocking Stone bricks - produced on Independence - used in building walls and gives the wall x4 the normal defensive value. Wall section must be built using these exclusively. (Example of Construiction Tecnique)

 

The above are just examples but every server needs a handful of items that would be useful and valuable to the pvp side.And those items really need to be unique to that server. At this point if each server say has 5 items that are geared towards pvp then we have a very basic tie in for pve and pvp. These items can be sold at any of the local trading posts and now the pve side is now indirectly participating in pvp. If we take this a step further and gave ships a single weapon, dont care what it is, dont care how it works, just a way for a ship to attack another ship, we add in the possibility of blockades and people like me who would jump at the chance to run blockades in the aforementioned Catamarans. So now there would be yet another draw to the pvp side. It would need to be that Trading Posts areas would need to prevent pvp. No fighting in those areas. As soon as you step out of that area, game on.

 

Now lets say your just totally against the idea of the pvp guys coming into your area trying to sell thier stuff. Then if your able to vote in the trade Guild you can vote on a policy that does not allow cross server imports. Or may slap a big ole import tax on cross server merchandise. This is why the PC's. Pc's have ownership and are tied to your local trading post. The system can tell where those goods came from and now its possible to identify the server and region those good are coming from. Its really easy at that point to apply any kind of code to them to do all kinds of things.

 

One can keep expanding on this system and make it whatever anyone wants. Every time you expand on it, you are making another way to tie in pvp and pve. The pve'ers can stay out of the main fray as much or as little as they like and contribute on the level they are comfortable with. And for the pvp side they get people they would otherwise have never had participating whether indirectly or directly. It becomes a whole new world for the pvpers.

 

While none of the examples need be used in the fashion I have laid them out, the concept of having the pvp and pve communities interacting both directly and indirectly is a "PROVEN" concept and in my opinion would go a very long way in retaining players. The above examples are a very simplified view of what actually could be accomplished by implementing a trade system. The trade system in my opinion should be the absolute number one priority on the developers to do list. Without question it will open doors for WURM it has never had.

 

One last Edit and something I didnt touch on is that of all the things that were spoke about by the devs in the Q&A none of them will actually make them money directly. Putting in a real trade system, allowing Code Club to charge some sort of listing fee, would allow them to make money directly. It could be used as a sink for silver and ever so slightly, ultimately get more cash shop sales of silver.

 

So again I will state, Putting in a trade system should be the number one priority of Code Club. there are just too many benefits for everyone for it not to be put in and ASAP.

Edited June 18, 2015 by sunsvortex

[asdf 297]

So, guys and gals who -1 the auction house idea:

you're ok with this as long as it requires a forum post on the WTA/WTS boards, but simplifying that to a mouse click ingame is a no-no?

The items you bought would still be delivered via cod, you know.

[Herrfritz 181]

actually the whole reimbursement system is crap. Total crap.

 

Why do i have to play a minigame like 'Drain the Trader' or 'Wurm the Gathering (and selling)' allthough i pay for my gametime with RL money.

Its like theme-park mmos without the actual misson but some RNG added.

[Keenan 5,539]

So, guys and gals who -1 the auction house idea:

you're ok with this as long as it requires a forum post on the WTA/WTS boards, but simplifying that to a mouse click ingame is a no-no?

The items you bought would still be delivered via cod, you know.

 

Yes. Because two (or more) people negotiate with each other and then make a trade.

 

Auction houses allow for far too much min/maxing of an economy and take away from certain aspects - like logistics. It takes time and effort to move bulk goods, for instance. So what, you want an auction house where you click "Buy Now" and suddenly "POOF!" there's a large crate of dirt at your feet?

[Corsan 199]

A way i see to balance the trader system is to match the money the traders give back with the number of active premium players mayor or citizen of the deed the trader is on.

That way traders would support only active villages and it would mean the end of trader deeds.

 

Then you get people who start buying premium for their stacks of alts, just to milk more money out, and eventually it becomes a 'self sustaining loop' where they don't have to pay for the game/premium time because their deed is just earning them enough to turn around and pay for upkeep + premium...the whole point in these mechanics is to keep someone paying/playing...so you've just defeated the purpose the devs had in making themselves money (They have to eat too.)

 

This is the problem a lot of us have with these systems. People want to use them to just pay their way, and be able to play 'for free' again, while not supporting the game.

[asdf 297]

So what, you want an auction house where you click "Buy Now" and suddenly "POOF!" there's a large crate of dirt at your feet?

Bulk is mostly another thing that is pretty much unrelated (I suppose people could mail keys to bsbs around? unlikely)

 

The logistics would stay the same for the most part. So, I cod a rare hammer to the auction house and set the price to 5s. Then you browse the auction house and you like the hammer so you click 'Buy now', the cash is taken from your bank and added to mine, and 9 minutes later (I sent it to the auction house using my 94 cast mailbox ) you can pick the hammer up in your local spirit castle.

 

As for negotiations, yeah. I suppose you could PM me and ask me to take the hammer down from the auction house, and offer to buy it for 4.5? Depends if I'd have to pay cod twice, but those are technical details. Point is, this is similar to the WTS section of the forums, where price negotiations certainly do exist, but 90% of the posts are "cod item #42 to asdf thanks".

 

You might think this would be an insignificant addition to the game, and that the forums work pretty well, but this has mostly to do with transaction costs. Lots of people, including me, have tons of tools they never use that just sit there, accumulating dustdecay. I could set up a big WTS post, but writing all that up, and then maintaining that list, takes a nontrivial amount of effort (and time is money!). If I could just put the items on the trader and set a price (no maintenance!), this would certainly help - especially if the postage is paid only when the item is sold (or taken off the auction house; as in, putting the items there is free, just like on the forums).

 

And I imagine lots of people would do the same, so this would create a pretty big market of mostly middle-class tools, mainly helpful for newbies.

 

(it could also work for auctions, but tbh auctioning ingame isn't really all that different from auctioning on the forums - you still need to wait till the end of the auction, so the main point - buying an item immediately - just isn't there)

Edited June 19, 2015 by asdf

[Kegan 3,926]

if the item does not sell and you don't want to get it out then it would need to be destroyed