Stop the Sale of Gold in game for real money

[Kadore 926]

The return on investment is so low I don't get why people get so worried.

 

If the gains were macroed, traded for doing sound ( cough  Doughboy ) or other means that break the rules then that would be punished under current game rules.

 

I seriously doubt some Wurm Player is sitting on a beach somewhere wondering what the poor people are doing while foraging and making bank.

[Benzo 9]

I don't think other people should be allowed to profit in RL money from this game. It invites the wrong type of behavior in what is supposed to be a social and cooperative game.

When there are too many coins in circulation, they should just be removed from the game as needed to keep the value of silver in line with the cost of silver.

Powerful accounts should be allowed to expire if the player is done with the game.

Use that extra money for development.

Don't let good people develop this game and not pay them. The wrong people are getting paid here.

Keep the game economy in game.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Benzo

[damine 54]

all the coin came from the game devs and was paid for when it first came into game no reason to charge 2-3 time for same coin  ,,,sounds to me your upset because you can save coin in order for yourself to sell it like others

[madnezz 555]

-1

Edited June 17, 2015 by madnezz

[yashua 185]

I'm going to second what madnezz is saying, we need some sort of buffer, I could sit here and type a massive debate about why things work so well the way they are now. I also think OP is a little to new to realize there is a majority of us that actually pay our premiums not to mention our deeds with coin which returns money into the system.

[Hordern 2,177]

To enable people to buy sale toons /   items /  and yes silver         Safe   not being scammed like when just saw a few weeks ago where 1 person  lost out on over a 100 dollars  to our in game sellers.

I must have missed this one - who lost out in a silver sale? I know of a small number of recent scams where people sold items they didn't have for RL money to people who didn't take proper precautions, but no silver sale scams. Would you then want to remove item trading from the game if this change was made?

[yashua 185]

I must have missed this one - who lost out in a silver sale? I know of a small number of recent scams where people sold items they didn't have for RL money to people who didn't take proper precautions, but no silver sale scams. Would you then want to remove item trading from the game if this change was made?

Maybe then we can just remove currency all together? why stop there we could just remove items that would solve the issue.

[Marshlander 188]

I had a similar knee-jerk reaction to the in-game economy when I started to get familiar with the finer points of it. But it was mostly just that, some assumptions from RL carried over into the game mixed with some popular myths. I'll go through a few assumptions and the conclusions I came to over time:

 

1. "Having players earn silvers in-game and then selling the silver to other players hurts the game and developer, because it reduces the amount of silver sales through the game shop site"

This is an obvious analysis, although often grossly exaggerated. If you totalled up the silver/gold being sold on the forums I doubt you'd even come close to 1% of the total of silver and premium sold through the shop. What people also don't realize is that the game benefits from rewarding extraordinary in-game activity. The fact that people come up with new in-game services, trades and infrastructure is a healthy core to the game, and helps to keep prices from falling. This leads to people like me (who just likes to be a little homesteader) to have incentives to buy more silver from the shop in order to participate more in the economy.

 

2. "People who profit are anti-social"

While I think there are (or were) a few anti-social avenues of making money (the old trader system, the rare lottery and exploit windows), overall the people who make the most money are typically very active in the game and the in-game community. I would even say this is a prerequisite to making a good surplus. Yes, you can just buy a high blacksmith account and Vynora priest and flood the market with enchanted tools, but this needs a lot of investment and requires you to participate in the economy for the trades. Being a good seller has a strong social component, typically, as you want to set up relationships in order to have regular and not random buyers. You'd then also probably buy saccing stuff and gems from other people to stay efficient. The people who make the most money out of the least investment are those offering direct face-to-face services (terraforming, pan-filling, and the buying, sale and delivery of bulk items). Even in PvP you need a social brothers-in-arms circle around you to be remotely successful.

 

There are a couple of avenues of making money in-game that I resent, such as you just get lucky and get a rare or the trade of HotA items for ridiculous prices on Freedom. But these kinds of luxury markets are the extreme end of a healthy economy I guess, and these items the mark of successful traders when they match up with the buyers in-game interest. Typically I don't see the intrinsic value that justifies those prices and as a result, I simply don't participate in these sorts of trades (unless it's something I really, really want ). A lot of people spend RL money in one way or another for the buying power to participate in such trades, though (I know I have, in the past).

 

In effect, just buying silver from the shop is more anti-social than earning it in-game, if you look at it from the perspective of the in-game community and economy.

 

 

Yes, we could have a game that doesn't reward extra effort, and instead have daily grind tasks like "make 50 planks for the king for 10 copper" for everyone, but then we'd see the game becoming more of a medieval suburbia simulator, with people just paying that silver to make up for their little needs, and fewer incentives to participate in the economy.

 

EDIT: I put the mythical statements in quotes to make it clearer that I'm trying to debunk them rather than agree with them.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Marshlander

[Wulfgarr 810]

A big -1. See no point in this and all your arguments are based on the "fact" that selling silver for IRL cash is hurting the game. If the first fact on what all the discussion is built on is wrong then there is no point to argue.

[Bachus 462]

Excellent explanation Marshlander!  

 

I agree with you that the people who profit are some of the most social in Wurm many are even CA's who spend much of their playing time answering questions for the new players and even old players encountering something new (like me).  Also many of them give items away to players. I don't mean just sickles and scythes but Drake Sets, highly enchanted weapons and tools as well as Silver.      

  For most of them it is not about greed and RL. profits are thin; it would take at least a 1,000 hours to make a priest account worth 1,000 euros or to make, sell, and deliver that many bricks. They get enjoyment out of the challenge to make RL money and that is the only thing making such a time investment worthwhile.

[Ayes 3,715]

 

You seem to have a lot to say about this game for a forum char that has existed less than a week.  That means you are either a noob who needs to learn more about the history of this game, or a forum troll.  In either case you need to be mostly ignored for now.

True on one thing. Seems a bit strange that a new forum account would have this much knowledge about the game. Which leads me to believe this is just an account created by an older player to address controversial topics. Hiding in plain sight, so to speak. Me, I would just post on my own account and take the heat.

 

 

1. "Having players earn silvers in-game and then selling the silver to other players hurts the game and developer, because it reduces the amount of silver sales through the game shop site"

This is an obvious analysis, although often grossly exaggerated. If you totalled up the silver/gold being sold on the forums I doubt you'd even come close to 1% of the total of silver and premium sold through the shop. What people also don't realize is that the game benefits from rewarding extraordinary in-game activity. The fact that people come up with new in-game services, trades and infrastructure is a healthy core to the game, and helps to keep prices from falling. This leads to people like me (who just likes to be a little homesteader) to have incentives to buy more silver from the shop in order to participate more in the economy.

 

2. "People who profit are anti-social"

EDIT: I put the mythical statements in quotes to make it clearer that I'm trying to debunk them rather than agree with them.

1. Something you are overlooking here is that *all* silver that is sold by others does NOT come only from the Wurm Shop. Rolf drops "free" coins into the game by several means, that being Trader draining, Token sales and rare coin drops. How you can state with any accuracy that this does not reduce the sales of coin from the Wurm Shop, I find either completely ignorant of this fact or just intentionally distorting this effect by attempting to ignore it.

 

For years Trader draining was giving away vast amounts of silver coins that would either be sold off or used to pay for game expenses. Sales of this silver to other players then enabled them to buy it for less by NOT buying from the Wurm Shop. Somehow you think this is a knee-jerk-reaction and grossly exaggerated? If you do I would question your motives to want to attempt to deny the reality of this situation. This does not give any incentive to purchase coins from the Wurm Shop, quite the opposite. 

 

As for your 1% statement referencing these player silver coin sales, you have absolutely no knowledge of the financial details of player coin sales vs Wurm Shop coin sales to back this underrepresentation up. I suggest that you at least stick to some reasonable reference here, although it is impossible to do so anyway since I doubt even the god of Wurm has any accurate knowledge of player silver coin sales, as no doubt much of it is done privately without advertisement on the forums. Add that onto the open sales on the forum and 1% is a nonsense number grabbed out of the air.

 

Anyway, the point being is that Wurm Shop coin sales are reduced by the effects I pointed out. Then when the player uses these coins to purchase items in game they are not playing and paying with coins that were obtained from the Wurm Shop.

 

Also remember, "prices of items falling" while not good for the producer are good for the consumer. Compare the vast number of consumers within Wurm to the producers and you will get a better idea of which sector of players should be focused upon. Gearing the "economy" with protective measures that favor the producer eventually make the game more expensive for the bulk of the players, which is another flaw in the way the game is structured.

 

This brings the topic more onto the point of how much "free" silver can be dumped into the game in this manner to "stimulate the economy" without diminishing the game income through the Wurm Shop to the point where it has a detrimental effect. This is the heart of the matter and this debate, of which I believe no player is qualified to make an effective analysis. So in the end only the overall concepts can be commented upon but they should at least not ignore pertinent facts about the situation as you have done.

 

As for "socialability", some are less so than others and I see no virtue in putting this concept upon a pedestal to be pursued. Better each act according to their own nature and learn to appreciate others for the good qualities that are suited to their own nature as well.

 

=Ayes=

[madnezz 555]

This argument is just silly, you are not Rolf and I highly doubt he has personally asked you how to solve these perceived and nonexistent economic problems within his game.  

 

If you like playing Wurm do so and stop worrying about things that are none of your business.   Otherwise find the game that has the rules and playstyle you like and let us enjoy Wurm without your nonsensical and infantile interference.

[aamanus 1,488]

Rolf makes money on silver purchases when coin is added to the game.  That is, people buying it through the wurm store.  There are ingame money sinks that remove currency from the game, so some people MUST buy from the store.

 

Players selling currency to one another is simply a trade of goods.  It makes no difference to how much is in the game.  I'm sure if Rolf and co felt that they were being severely hurt by it, they are capable of dealing with it without requiring some random individual telling them that they are bad at their job.

[Bachus 462]

True on one thing. Seems a bit strange that a new forum account would have this much knowledge about the game. Which leads me to believe this is just an account created by an older player to address controversial topics. Hiding in plain sight, so to speak. Me, I would just post on my own account and take the heat.

 

1. Something you are overlooking here is that *all* silver that is sold by others does NOT come only from the Wurm Shop. Rolf drops "free" coins into the game by several means, that being Trader draining, Token sales and rare coin drops. How you can state with any accuracy that this does not reduce the sales of coin from the Wurm Shop, I find either completely ignorant of this fact or just intentionally distorting this effect by attempting to ignore it.

 

For years Trader draining was giving away vast amounts of silver coins that would either be sold off or used to pay for game expenses. Sales of this silver to other players then enabled them to buy it for less by NOT buying from the Wurm Shop. Somehow you think this is a knee-jerk-reaction and grossly exaggerated? If you do I would question your motives to want to attempt to deny the reality of this situation. This does not give any incentive to purchase coins from the Wurm Shop, quite the opposite. 

 

2.  As for your 1% statement referencing these player silver coin sales, you have absolutely no knowledge of the financial details of player coin sales vs Wurm Shop coin sales to back this underrepresentation up. I suggest that you at least stick to some reasonable reference here, although it is impossible to do so anyway since I doubt even the god of Wurm has any accurate knowledge of player silver coin sales, as no doubt much of it is done privately without advertisement on the forums. Add that onto the open sales on the forum and 1% is a nonsense number grabbed out of the air.

 

3.  Anyway, the point being is that Wurm Shop coin sales are reduced by the effects I pointed out. Then when the player uses these coins to purchase items in game they are not playing and paying with coins that were obtained from the Wurm Shop.

 

4.  Also remember, "prices of items falling" while not good for the producer are good for the consumer. Compare the vast number of consumers within Wurm to the producers and you will get a better idea of which sector of players should be focused upon. Gearing the "economy" with protective measures that favor the producer eventually make the game more expensive for the bulk of the players, which is another flaw in the way the game is structured.

 

5.  This brings the topic more onto the point of how much "free" silver can be dumped into the game in this manner to "stimulate the economy" without diminishing the game income through the Wurm Shop to the point where it has a detrimental effect. This is the heart of the matter and this debate, of which I believe no player is qualified to make an effective analysis. So in the end only the overall concepts can be commented upon but they should at least not ignore pertinent facts about the situation as you have done.

 

6.  As for "socialability", some are less so than others and I see no virtue in putting this concept upon a pedestal to be pursued. Better each act according to their own nature and learn to appreciate others for the good qualities that are suited to their own nature as well.

 

=Ayes=

 

1.   Free coins were added by Rolf so he must not be worried about shop sales.  Most likely they are a version of the 'free sample to get you hooked'.  Also Trader Draining is no longer a viable option as most now pay barely enough to cover maintenance on an average size deed.

 

2.  If no one has that knowledge how do you know that it is an under-representation?  It may be less than 1% player sales of silver as well.  With 3500 deed holders if it were more than that we would probably be seeing it a lot more on the forums and in chat.

 

3. If no one knows how much is being sold by players or the shop, then how can you know that these sales are hurting shop sales?

Perhaps they are actually stimulating shop sales by people making large investments in the game hoping for a later pay off which does not always come to fruition. Many are gambling on the future and the house always wins.

 

4.  Prices are definitely falling on just about everything.  About the only things to remain constant are bricks and Drake.  Horses, tools, enchants, weapons, and most of the commonly bought items are much cheaper than they were a few years ago.  This is not because of the free coins but because of supply and demand there are more suppliers of these things and fewer that sell bricks.

 

5. Nobody knows, nobody can know, it's Rolfs game and he likes it this way so do most of the players.

 

6.  Not putting them on a pedestal but it does sorta counteract the 'they are greedy miser hermits' stereotype.

 

[As for the OP I think he is an alt of well known someone with a very similar name. ]

[KyleBooze 451]

I think it's fine.

[Proximo 402]

-1

 

I don't have the time or energy to grind a 90+ WS and a maxed out priest just to make coin in this game. 

[Ayes 3,715]

Ultimately what it comes down to is that some players make or obtain enough excess silver/gold from playing the game that they find it desirable to sell off some excess for real life currencies. I don't see this as any problem with the players but rather the game design. Then when others try to deny or distort the reasons that the game design allows this to happen, I may respond. That then some few others respond emotionally to the situation as described is their problem, which I have no concern about, since their reaction is what they have the ability to control.

 

Best to face reality really and look at this situation of making a profit from playing the game and how it functions, for what it really is. This is the point I am trying to make, personalities set aside.

 

=Ayes=

[Marshlander 188]

1. Something you are overlooking here is that *all* silver that is sold by others does NOT come only from the Wurm Shop. Rolf drops "free" coins into the game by several means, that being Trader draining, Token sales and rare coin drops. How you can state with any accuracy that this does not reduce the sales of coin from the Wurm Shop, I find either completely ignorant of this fact or just intentionally distorting this effect by attempting to ignore it.

That is true. I don't think these are regular interventions, though, and they seem to be performed at Rolf's discretion. A lot of giveaways were also aimed at the Challenge servers. I'm not including these because they are a hidden factor, and one that is controlled by Rolf to further his vision. I wouldn't therefore assume that this is a case of players taking advantage of the creators of this game.

 

 

For years Trader draining was giving away vast amounts of silver coins that would either be sold off or used to pay for game expenses. Sales of this silver to other players then enabled them to buy it for less by NOT buying from the Wurm Shop. Somehow you think this is a knee-jerk-reaction and grossly exaggerated? If you do I would question your motives to want to attempt to deny the reality of this situation. This does not give any incentive to purchase coins from the Wurm Shop, quite the opposite.

I actually mentioned that under anti-social ways of making money, although this system is now abolished. I wouldn't have written my post if I hadn't seen this system go the way of the dodo. And I was an advocate of getting rid of it, if you remember.

 

As for your 1% statement referencing these player silver coin sales, you have absolutely no knowledge of the financial details of player coin sales vs Wurm Shop coin sales to back this underrepresentation up. I suggest that you at least stick to some reasonable reference here, although it is impossible to do so anyway since I doubt even the god of Wurm has any accurate knowledge of player silver coin sales, as no doubt much of it is done privately without advertisement on the forums. Add that onto the open sales on the forum and 1% is a nonsense number grabbed out of the air.

I didn't want to make a mathematical post, but I did a simple estimation: following the silver sales on the forums, I'm guessing these amount to no more than 250 silvers per month on average. I did not take sales for euros instead of silver into account - maybe this is a mistake, maybe not. In order for this figure to be 1% of the premium earnings (add 0.5 silver for deed upkeep on average, perhaps), you'd need to have no more than around 4500 premium accounts in total. Actually less, since this would mean that no one buys silver from the shop for their other needs, only upkeep and premium. Then you can see that this cannot be that far from the truth, not by a huge margin at least.

 

Actually, I would like to see those who raise accusations back up their fear-mongering with some estimations or numbers. And please don't tell me that everyone lives from recirculated silver, tell me how to do it. Post-trader, that is. All I've gotten from recirculation was a pittance.

 

Also remember, "prices of items falling" while not good for the producer are good for the consumer. Compare the vast number of consumers within Wurm to the producers and you will get a better idea of which sector of players should be focused upon. Gearing the "economy" with protective measures that favor the producer eventually make the game more expensive for the bulk of the players, which is another flaw in the way the game is structured.

It actually has to be that way, Ayes. With nearly infinite resources, with ever-increasing skill, and a still much higher rate of production than of decay, there's more and more goods on the market that are looking for their customer. What is the market for tools below 70ql? Or without CoC? That's stuff you get at impalongs or from neighbours for free. As prices plummet, services become unavailable since they are simply not worth doing anymore, except at one's own leisure or for friends. In Wurm, nobody is born as a consumer, we are producers from day one. Who hasn't made their own first mallet, but bought it instead? Unlike RL, there is a choice to become a consumer here. And the role of a consumer here is a very active one, too.

 

 

This brings the topic more onto the point of how much "free" silver can be dumped into the game in this manner to "stimulate the economy" without diminishing the game income through the Wurm Shop to the point where it has a detrimental effect. This is the heart of the matter and this debate, of which I believe no player is qualified to make an effective analysis. So in the end only the overall concepts can be commented upon but they should at least not ignore pertinent facts about the situation as you have done.

Certainly an interesting topic. As I tried to point out with my 1% guestimate, I don't think we're nearing that point any time soon. While you're at it, you might as well question why Rolf pays wages to developers since it has a detrimental effect to his company balance. Of course he does that to stimulate the growth of his game. Just like he did with freebies and the Challenge server rewards. None of which I've partaken in, in case you were wondering.

 

 

As for "socialability", some are less so than others and I see no virtue in putting this concept upon a pedestal to be pursued. Better each act according to their own nature and learn to appreciate others for the good qualities that are suited to their own nature as well.

I'm simply arguing against this second myth. As in RL, there are sociable folks with a lot of superficial contacts, and there are more introverted folks with a few really intimate friends. In game I tend firmly towards the latter end of the spectrum, and play the part of a reclusive hermit (when I actually play, that is). Half my friendlist is from people I've bought from, and while they aren't real friends in the narrower sense, I do welcome their addition as one window to the outside world.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Marshlander

[Jarosz 189]

The bigger the player economy is, the bigger the playbase is, the more money people buy from Rolf's shop.  Its macro-economics.

If Rolf doesn't allow people to trade silver (which is the only means of fully banning the sale of in game coin)  all he is doing is shooting himself in the foot.  For every player that will buy coin to pay others to get things done in Wurm, there is 10-15+ players willing to work for ingame coin to pay for premium.  IF you had your way, and coin could not be traded, you kill the economy, the workers leave because they can't "earn" coin or trade it in for premium (because in game premium sale is lost profit for Rolf as well with your logic) And now your cash cows who pay for everything via the shop start dwindling.

 

You also need a means of cycling that money efficiently to keep the economy moving.  Players do that much quicker and more efficiently than traders/rare coin drops etc.

 

Whether you like it or not, successful real life economies rely on the abilities of Currency gatherers/sellers... its called the stock market.

[BlGpapa 68]

-1

[LorraineJ 1,099]

If you're going to stop the sale of gold for real money because "it hurts the bottom line of the developers," then even more importantly the paying of deed dues and premium by silvers earned in-game has to stop. How does someone hanging out on the server, doing lots of actions and running all around, making some in-game money and then paying for their time and space on the server without actual money, how does that support the server or the developers? Right?

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

Wait a minute.  You say it takes away from Rolf and the game if people pay ingame silver for premium time, deed upkeep, tools, weapons, etc., and you don't think that should happen, it is cheating Rolf and the game of money.  Then you say that if you want to pay another player for something ingame, you would rather pay them directly via paypal rather than using the ingame silvers that were made for that purpose.  Sooo, how does Rolf get to make any money for his game with your way of paying other players for things?  Seems Rolf at least makes money once when he sells the silvers to players, who then use them for ingame commerce.  With your method, he does not even get to make that.  Do you start to see the enormous holes in your theory yet?  Take a careful look at how many MILLIONS of silvers that are in the game right now.  Rolf got paid for every one of them.  What players do with them after they have bought them is their own business.

 

And while it is quite possible to own a deed and play as prem all with ingame silvers, it is NOT for free.  I do it, and I spend many hours of my gametime making tools, weapons, armors, compasses, and many other items that the players need, and cannot buy from the game.  There are many times I would rather just play, but I HAVE to put in that crafting time if I want to continue to play for "free".  It's a lot of work, especially if you make 80 + ql compasses or 90+ ql armor and weapons with enchants.  And for a new player to do the same thing, it is very hard without high crafting skills.  If they are willing to spend many hours of gametime every day making low priced bulk goods like planks or bricks to finally get to pay for prem with ingame silvers, then they have earned it.

 

You seem a bit blind to that fact.  We who don't pay cash to play have a vital role to play in the game to earn that ingame cash, so players can get the items they need to play and can't just "buy" from the game or make for themselves yet.  Even those who do the bulk item jobs are usually helping those who have the money to play, but don't have the time to invest making bulk items to accomplish their projects.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Vroomfondel

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Vroomfondel, I'm sorry the way I responded gave you the wrong idea. I don't think people should be stopped from buying silvers outside of the game. I don't think it harms the game. I think it harms the game LESS than paying everything with in-game silvers, but I don't think that should be stopped either. I just get exhausted from the kind of posts that are like: "I don't or can't do these things, so no one else should be allowed to either." I just wish people would play their game and stop worrying about what other people are doing that does not affect them. I was trying to point out that the idea of stopping outside purchase of silvers makes as much sense as banning the purchase of premium or deed fees with only earned silvers. It doesn't make sense to stop either.

 

And believe me, I appreciate every single person who's willing to craft these expert items because I surely don't have the patience to skill up enough to make them myself, or even make them myself when I do have the skill! After about six clicks of imping or building, or two fails, I'm ready to break something. And I have a bunch of your compasses and want more! Any time I'm walking around in an alt that doesn't have one yet I have total frustration.

[Simyaci 392]

Stop this, stop that, trying to make people look like criminals etc... not gonna help. I am a relatively new player but it is obvious this game has been running for long and I doubt you are the first one to suggest stopping those sales.

 

I would rather see devs implementing wurm shop unique purchases. For example, I could buy a certificate item that I activate on my character and the item is consumed in the process, making me able to craft a different style of plate armour that has the same stats but completely different look! That would cost me a lot of rl money to buy but maybe also allow me to make more silvers in game, or just wear it myself and look cool. Give leatherworker saddle certificate for rl money, and that leatherworker player can make different looking saddles (no, not a saddle with a white stripe put on the same saddle, nooo), with same stats. How cool! Many other things for all craft objects could be made

 

ohh you do not want to pay for it? then do the quests that require you to imp breastplates for x number of times and craft x number of leggings etc. to receive the certificate, deeming you worthy for that.

 

You could even put a %1 (or more) percent skill loss sacrifice upon activation so it would be more newbie friendly than veteran monopoly friendly. Also make it bind on pickup, not able to drop or trade but only remove the item from the game by clicking dispose or it will surely be abused in one way or another.

 

Many interesting and player friendly suggestions to bring more money to the cc could be made but is it not more fun to go very simple and opposing, knowing you will face a big opposition and put your forum warrior skills to the test

[Mordraug 2,542]

Many interesting and player friendly suggestions to bring more money to the cc could be made....

 

They're made, frequently.   We all know how THOSE go.