Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) And Fawkes is right, nor do I disagree with it. Wurm is a game, but it's a business. Wurm has to please it's largest demographic, and that's freedom, and freedom players often enjoy aesthetics. Are these demanded by PvE players? No of course not, but you can bet they're added to the game to please them. I mean just look on forums, who is selling valentine flowers and obelisks as decor? It's not a PvPers. Edited June 10, 2015 by Postes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I like how the new music benefits both, but decorative stuff doesn't. Again, the development time spent on aesthetic stuff doesn't necessarily mean it was taken away from other development. The art and the code are not made by the same people. The argument is moot and does nothing but fuel the "PvE vs. PvP" crap. We don't need more of it. Edited June 10, 2015 by LaRue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 92% of all statistics are made up. fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Aye dev time use to be a concern when it was just Rolf and Notch. Now theres even different server-side devs. Not to mention the web team, client devs, gfx devs, and the assorted volunteers. Then theres the GMs, CMs, CAs, more alphabet soups, and lest I forget the hierarchy within those groups. Apologies if I missed anyone... EDIT: Oh right the newer Wurmpedia group Edited June 10, 2015 by Klaa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) There are plenty of folks on PvE who care about mechanics over aesthetics. Just because marble planters don't directly affect PvP, doesn't mean PvP doesn't benefit from them. Unless we're talking about direct play, in which case, they don't directly influence folks beating each other up, but then, they don't directly affect the folks who spend all of their play time staring into a forge on Freedom, either. Aesthetic only things are as much benefit to PvP as the are to PvE, in that they benefit the folks who like to make pretty things over purely functional ones. I imagine there are PvP players who like pretty war deeds, just like there are PvE players who just care about how well something works. Also, how do tall banners affect both? Aren't they purely aesthetic? And you missed yule goats. Edited June 10, 2015 by Pandalet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 I noticed that you made 1 entry, War Machines, and that covers several new items you got after Challenge was closed. Count them separately like you did all other items and you will find PVP got a lot recently. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 10, 2015 people in pvp mising the point again,the problem that makes people on freedom mad its that everytime devs have to make a decision that has a chance to be bad for pvp it never happens, decisions that would be good for pve and bad for pvp are always 100% in favor of pvp. if something its good for pvp and bad for pve, its also 100% decided for pvp. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 This is updates from December 2014. This chart is beyond sad. Every item in the Freedom column is also available in the Both column. Why can't Epic or Chaos use every last item in the Freedom column? Easy, they can use them. All of them. Evidently the OP considers the Freedom population as well as the game developers to be without the ability to see how biased this chart is. Was this a mediocre attempt at a poor me post? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Sure, feel free to demonstrate how one can kill another character ingame with a shirt. I guarantee you will have the undivided attention of every pvper, if it is successful and deemed viable. Although I have seen players kill other players with just a scorpion corpse (also when I was a newb there were old tales about Sye's battle chicken), and sure its nice change of pace to eyeball something pretty. Still a bit of a leap across into OMG ITS TOO POWERFULL territory. Edited June 11, 2015 by Klaa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 I will be more interested to see how many PvE updates/changes screwed PvP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) I will be more interested to see how many PvE updates/changes screwed PvP If its fighting-related pve changes (player versus environment), pretty much all of them. Changes of any kind disrupt the old ways. Then there's getting into changes impacting the skillgain rates. PvE is the usual means of training when its easier to find mobs than players, and mobs give more skill. Atm with the current setup in archery and fighting, Rolf made it so hunting players gives better return on investment after a certain point. EDIT: Which kinda gets into why Im against making the pve and pvp portions of the game truly separate. Aside from making dev work even more time-consuming, having two different means of gameplay will make it more difficult for players to transition back 'n forth. Learning to deal with a living, breathing, adapting opponent is difficult enough on its own (and awesome personally). Without having to relearn how the entire game works. Edited June 11, 2015 by Klaa Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 If tomorrow, all of the things that are on that list specifically intended to make freedomers happy was to disappear from the PvP servers, not a single person would lose a minute of sleep over it. I agree marble planters are wonderful to look at, but I wouldn't care one bit if they just went away. It wouldn't hurt my playing experience. On the other hand, if suddenly all of the HotA statues that have been brought to freedom servers just up and vanished, these forums would be flooded with tears and I'm sure more than a few would be tapped with the ban hammer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 This is updates from December 2014. Visible jewelry, tapestry, new walls, planters, shirts, all are "Both. This is so biased it ain't even funny. But decorating your house isnt benefiting PvPers, it's benefiting people who spend a lot of time in their houses, and care for the visuals of the game. In the field of battle a marble planter won't help me. A lot of these updates are purely aesthetics, they aren't benefiting PvPers at all, but you rarely see complaints from the PvP community in comparison to the amount of PvE ones. THEN HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE PVP PANTIES IN A BUNCH WHENEVER FREEDOM PLAYERS SUGGEST SOME AESTHETICS OF OUR OWN THAT HAPPEN TO COINCIDE WITH STUFF PVP SELLS? "If you want more decoratives join PvP!" The genius in this thead is overwhelming. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) So you're saying Freedom gets decorations (That PvP still get), PvP gets mechanics and we should shut up and deal with it? You should really put everything on the Freedom column into the "Both" column. The decorations are nice, but I don't remember people screaming for Marble Planters on the forums. Even the GM Treasure Hunt wasn't exclusively PvE, considering the large number of MR from Chaos that attended. You also left out the biggest mechanics update that only Epic players get to enjoy: Godhood. If you want an example of what would count as a PvE exclusive Mechanic we could start with:Remove the nerf for tamed animals on Freedom servers.Increase the slope/depth that you can add concrete for Freedom servers.Give us back the ability to make rock islands with concrete on Freedom servers.Increase ship speed to encourage trade for Freedom servers.Allow us to dredge rock that's 9 slope or more underwater.These are all things that would be a disaster for PvP, but people on PvE still want. Add it for us, and we'll add 1 point to the Freedom column. You'll also note that three of the five suggestions once existed, but were changed to meet PvP mechanics needs. Our version of mechanics love, is really just exclusion from the forced changes we experience as a result of Rolf's constant tweaking of PvP mechanics. That's right, changes to your PvP gameplay directly worsen our PvE gameplay. All we ask for is fairness. We want the same amount of mechanics love that PvP gets. We're tired of changes made to PvP game play, directly denigrating from ours. Edited June 11, 2015 by Dairuka 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 Thanks for this, it will help us keep track of who deserves the next update. I'm kidding, this is nonsense. 14 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 If its fighting-related pve changes (player versus environment), pretty much all of them. Changes of any kind disrupt the old ways.Then there's getting into changes impacting the skillgain rates. PvE is the usual means of training when its easier to find mobs than players, and mobs give more skill. Atm with the current setup in archery and fighting, Rolf made it so hunting players gives better return on investment after a certain point.EDIT: Which kinda gets into why Im against making the pve and pvp portions of the game truly separate. Aside from making dev work even more time-consuming, having two different means of gameplay will make it more difficult for players to transition back 'n forth.Learning to deal with a living, breathing, adapting opponent is difficult enough on its own (and awesome personally). Without having to relearn how the entire game works. A bunch of words and yet you didn't give a example of a PvE change that had screwed PvP. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 A bunch of words and yet you didn't give a example of a PvE change that had screwed PvP. Methinks you didn't read the first sentence. Unless you want a specific single case, which should have been specified. Instead of asking for one to quantify. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 Thanks for this, it will help us keep track of who deserves the next update. I'm kidding, this is nonsense. Pick me. Just me though make my avatar half hell horse please. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 While you might not like the decorations that does not mean it was not a benefit for both servers. Edit: So 3,4,14,19 and 20 should also be for both since it does effect the players that do like to decorate their pvp deeds. Agreed. If works on Freedom only, it's a Freedom benefit. If it works on both, it benefits both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 PvE isn't liable to get many truly exclusive features, and it's not because of bias. It's just an inherent property of choosing PvE. Try to imagine a feature that would be completely useless on PvP servers, and thus are kept on Freedom only. Now try thinking of things that would be useless on Freedom but useful on Epic/Chaos. See how much the list grows? In other words, if you willfully opt out of PvP-related content, then you shouldn't be surprised when certain content doesn't benefit you. Those who have expressed openness to experiencing all of the game's content, on the other hand, experience all of the game's content. There's nothing oppressive about that.Also, to say that "PvP gets decorations too" kind of misses the point, I think. Look at the suggestions forum over a long enough time period and you'll see that PvE players are overwhelmingly the ones who make threads about aesthetic stuff, while PvP suggestions are more often about functionality. So it's not necessarily about who gets access to the updates; it's about who the updates are intended to appease. Doesn't matter. It's content. Content is content. A texture change to grass going live on both servers is content on both servers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 Are these people serious? I agree, these PVEers are babies Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 This is updates from December 2014. So people on PVP servers are not allowed to wear shirts, make planters, make pretty walls, wear jewelry or make tapestries? Because if they have access to it i really can't see how it's not "both" 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 This must be one of the most biased threads of the last months. Or was it only made to stir more PvP vs. non-PvP arguments? Forum warriors rejoice ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 11, 2015 Should be obvious. It's a Troll. But I'm fresh out of good Troll nuggets to feed it and my bad Troll nuggets or as I call them "Nuggets Of Truth" are evidently not acceptable on the forum. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites