How newer players will never be as good as the vets

[Thorakkanath 444]

While I respect that this market thing is what you would enjoy in the game, I feel that this is exactly what a lot of posts lately seem to be about, not actually what would be enjoyable to play in but what is better for the market (enchants decay, account sales, this thread and many more). Is it truly that so many people only want to do stuff if they can turn a profit with it? I find the market game fun but it's certainly not all my game is. I grind skills because I enjoy doing it (really, 50 milking hasn't done me much good in terms of reaping rewards but it's fun to have the title and mess around with a fountain of milk). Ontop, not everyone wants to be dependent on others, so I really don't see any harm in people buying an account so they don't have to buy from others (it's actually part of the reason my village exists of only a few people but a ton of accounts, we do everything ourselves and for each other so we don't have to rely on others)

 

If this is what it is, then please rename the thread to something like "new players cannot compete in the market with older accounts" because I was under the impression the thread truly was about gaining skills (which I still believe is easier than before thanks to all the new content)

 

 

On a side note though, maybe someone bought the account with the skill, but someone else still had to put in the work and grind it, so it's not like it came out of thin air while you had to work hard for it

 

And I respect you and a few others more than you might think

 

But that is the thing, even the ones that you say don't need/want the market aspect of the game still expect to make a profit by buying and selling characters. If they are truly in just for the fun then they surely do not need to gain money out of it? And yes, depending on your skills the money you get for your account will more than likely cover all the premium you ever payed but will not cover your time spent in here, not even as a fraction - but you still expect to get money from it!

 

Also my quarrel is not with people that worked to get their skills and became autonomous (hermits) through their own power - i actually respect those people a LOT, but with people that bought the skills and chose an easy way into a hard (albeit much easier game than it used to be) game - that essentially ruins it for those who want to follow the path of building something themselves.

 

To exemplify, take for example the massive profit that was made (see? I am using the 3rd person ) from smuggling high ql iron from pvp back to pve back in the day. Was it risky? yes. Was it fun? I bet. Did people make a profit? hell yes!

Now imagine there was no one left to sell to, because either every char has 90+mining and stats to go mine themselves or complete beginners that don't need/have the money to buy that. Would it be as much fun doing these rounds knowing you just do them for the fun and adrenaline? I would argue that in no way the level of enjoyment would have been the same...

 

Also yes, in hindsight - I might have went a tiny bit off topic but i think it's still related to the OPs post

 

Now some disclaimers:

 

I do believe that skill grind is now easier than it used to be (with some exceptions, like shield bashing)

I do believe that some characteristics are harder to get now than they used to be, while others are easier

I would want so bad to go back in playing the wurm i started playing initially!!!! A wurm with unfinished items, no large carts and items turning to scrap, I really got hooked on the sense of accomplishment when I managed to make SOMETHING - and do not really care about the bling or the items that make it easier - like sleep powders, rares, linking, loading, wagons (but I need to use them if i am not to be run down by even the new generation that started playing)

[Thorakkanath 444]

Then don't focus on those players. Put them in the same category as the players who have grinded up those skills. Those people still paid a subscription, probably coc tools, etc, to get where they are.

 

Instead, focus your services on the players who need your products/services. There's no sense in moping about the people who don't as that gets you nowhere.

 

In the same post you quoted I exemplified how I went from having lots of customers to having very few. How can I focus on people that do not exist?

By not having accounts sales there will always be a somewhat equal balance in supply/demand for any skill. With account sales the demand for any skill sinks constantly.

 

I will eventually leave this game too, and when I leave the people that will come after me will fill the skill gap i caused by leaving..that should be the way it works.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Thorakkanath

[Tpikol 1,057]

lol compare the stats of people that  several carpentry related skills to 99 before they increased the gains in bc and have would have a much harder time now getting it up than new players getting those same skills up for example.

 

i started in 2011 and still a new players compared to some people,but even when i started there was just the 1 pve server(freedom,now called independence) you had to walk like  1 hour to get away from the area around the spawn deed that alsmot all walled off or deeded. then after finding my way to a public mine got some iron and tried to make a sickle,heating the iron took forever,then i failed to make the sickle blade and ended up with a bunch of iron scraps that i had to cool down and heat for like an hour again. made the sickle blade tried to atach to the handle and it exploded,now i had iron scraps and wooden scraps.

 

compare that to how things work now.

 

and now my own experience in competition with other players,you may not be able to compete with elwood tomorrow if you started today and want to no spend any time geting your skills up,but i started tpikol in 2012 when many people already had 99 carpentry and fine carpentry,but i spent the time to get mine up and ended up in the same position they were because they couldnt get any better than they are already were when i started.

[Jaz 2,666]

...oh and there is also, laughing about the crazyness of those people who are skilling up to 90+

Ugh, in the distance Jaz caught hiding his master smith title :-P

[Evilvision 301]

Skill gain has been increased quite a bit in the last cpl years. Blacksmithing has been made stupidly easy to work up. I know weapon smithing was ramped up as well. I stopped at 40WS and when I started working on it again a cpl years back I noticed that I was making per hour in skill gains with SB that used to take over 5 hours of SB before to achieve. Just the addition of BSB's, crates, wagons, carts, horses and crafting window allow any new player to grind 10x easier then it took in those days. Back then you had to use everything right there and then (no storage it decayed away) including sleep bonus because back then if you had SB it automatically got used as soon as you logged on because there was no toggle..

 

Slowly but surely this game keeps getting easier and easier and there are so many people that have even surpassed most of the "Vets" in most skills. I started out Post Fight Fix  and I am willing to bet I have body stats that are better than some of the older toons (You have played 661 days, 17 hours and 12 minutes). Its all about how much you put into the game. This game was designed to be a long term game and not some piece of crap that you hit max level in 2 weeks of power leveling and then move on because your bored from flying through all the content.

 

I also am against account selling and buying as it doesn't allow for natural attrition to take place when people stop playing and I feel this does contribute significantly to various game issues.

 

But to answer the question I might be more hesitant to stick with Wurm now then when I did start but its not because of windows of opportunity or perceived lack of ability to catch up. Its because Wurm no longer has some of the brutality that it used to have that sucked me in. While not blowing up items on creation is nice it also has made the % to create a item utter meaningless since there is no risk anymore, only reward. Hell I don't even know how many hundreds of fails on a item it would take to actually blow it up on creation.

 

I do think anyone can catch up as long as they put the effort in but I would highly suggest to not grind. The best thing I ever did was stop grinding skills. Now I log on everyday and just do whatever the hell I fell like doing at that moment. It may be working on a skill or just joy riding around on my cart. Get rid of your daily chores or at least cut them down.  I farm some fields I have animals in but you know if they don't get farmed today there is always tomorrow or the next. Most fields will last more than a week anyhow. I have separate fields without animals to farm when I want skill or farming items.

 

Once you let the grind and chores go and have fun you will be surprised how much skills still go up when you get them from making and imping things you want or need versus grinding for the sake of it.  So many times I see new players go into grind mode on skills and after a couple of weeks they start to fizzle and just one day not log on. They were not having fun, just stressing themselves out grinding.

[Lycanthropic 523]

The whole point is vets had it easy  there is no way you get the same body stat gains ,for example,  that a player today gets. There was a nerf to the gains.

 

There was a time to get shield skill I could get huge gains really simple / fast.   Not anymore nerf the newbie again buffing the vets

 

same with priest Vets had it easy not anymore the up and coming priest has it harder now .

 

It is all about keep the vets happy while making it tougher on the newbies of today

 

 

The list can keep going  The vets had buffs then and the noobs today have a huge nerf in skill gains compared to back then.   

 

Curse those newbies not having to wait 30 minutes for their ores to melt into lumps

Curse those newbies not having their lumps cool down in a couple of minutes when in inventory

Curse those newbies not having to mine 50kg of iron to make a large anvil

Curse those newbies having a tutorial from the start

Curse those newbies having all these fancy graphics from the start

Curse those newbies having bulkbins from the start

Curse those newbies having a leveling option to terraform

Curse those newbies having 7 pve servers to choose from

Cruse those newbies having wagons and large crate from the start

Curse those newbies having the option of buying nice coc/woa tools for under 5s

Curse those newbies having multistory from the start

Curse those newbies having a crafting window from the start

Curse those newbies having a reduced agro-trigger buff

Curse those newbies having the option to FORAGE for COTTON

Curse those newbies having a newbie tent from the start

Curse those newbies having a road infrastructure in place from the start

...

Yeah, life is tougher for newbies, compared to when your "vets" started.

 

 

Seriously, I've been playing for 6 years, and I didnt even know all those windows of oppertunities you keep swinging around with, when I was  playing back then, I only knew of them when skillgains got reverted by Rolf (locksmithing, lockpicking, fishing, body stats,... ), or when other stuff was "fixed" out (no more fs from bred animals, no more easy-shieldbashgrinding,..).

 

Because.. I was having fun flatraising (yes, not leveling) my deed, mining a nice cave system, taking care of my cattle/horses, finetuning my crafting skills, exploring the terrain in a vast radius around me, making wine, fighting trolls and spiders, ...

 

 

And here I am, a vet with some very solid bodystats and skills, not because of those "windows", but just by playing Wurm almost non-stop because its the game I had been looking for all of my life: Crafting-Terraforming-Unlimited.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Lycanthropic

[Wulfur 32]

This post was about the nerf to skill gain ticks over the years.

 

 

 Wurm is in a much better place today as a whole than it was years ago but I stand on my original statement Vets had a much a easier time gaining certain skills before than the newbies of today have.

[Alden 209]

This post was about the nerf to skill gain ticks over the years.

 

 

 Wurm is in a much better place today as a whole than it was years ago but I stand on my original statement Vets had a much a easier time gaining certain skills before than the newbies of today have.

 

Based on what experience?

[Mordraug 2,542]

Vets had no crafting interface, crates, or "loading".

 

I got to see some of that albeit what.. 4 months?

 

Nah... poor vets XD

[Jonydowy 616]

For  a game to be fair to all the newplayers.. needs to never change/update in anyway..

I have started some games my self and later found out how cool it was few years back or months but that didn't made me quit.. thats the normal way..You think the vets who worked on some skills in some other way that took a hole lot longer before and now its easy.. take sleep powders for example.. vets could complain about those that are now fair..before all you had to do for sleep bonus was ingame sleep..now you just buy it on forum.If you really care so much to catch up with the vets just work harder and you will get there,you have the advantage that you are new with the mood of the game where vets are pretty bored of grinding and they mostly have fun in some other ways and don't play as much as before.

[Ulviirala 431]

This is just a simple question for the vets out there.    Over the years there have been more than a few nerfs to players , skill gains ,  items and a few more.

My question is this how is it fair for the newer players coming into wurm knowing that at one point I use to get crazy body stat  gains , but it got nerfed.   How is it fair for the newer players to say make a priest now knowing I can cast a lot better than they will ever be able to when I  had lowish sd I had way better cast than any new priest will ever hope to get due to a nerf.

 

  So many nerfs over the years seems that the only people to benefit from this are the few top end old timers " vets "   How is this fair ?    Most newish players don't even read / post on the forums. There voice is never heard  all you see , mostly , are these vets.  

 

 

 

So vets tell me if you had to start over and play knowing what you know now would you ?    I bet not

 

 

 

no I am not nearly as salty as this post may seem

That is simply not true.

For one, if skill gains have either been boosted or lowered, it was most likely for balancing reasons. This shouldn't be kept broken, or unbalanced respectively. Grinding skills today is actually the opposite, it's a lot easier and much more convenient than back when the vets had to do it (we're still doing it, that's how we know).

Every new player can be as good as an old player over time. There is a ceiling where even old players can't get even better. It is very possible for a new player to get a skill up as high as 70 or 90, but it needs time and some dedication. It's not nearly as hard as some people make it sound like, but many of them think they should be able to do this in 4 hours improving only 16 items. It's not that easy and it shouldn't be.

Though if you play this game solely to grind skills, instead of being a little more content with what you have, you won't have nearly as much fun. They are destroying their fun with their superiority mindset and attitude of requiring only the best. Super high quality items make things a little bit easier, but surely are not required to accomplish a majority of things, or to enjoy yourself and perform adequately.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Ulviirala

[MaurizioAM 919]

Always this topic brought up. In PVP perspective vets should have an edge with more skill, regardless of it was easier back then. This is a game and everyone knows it was a played beta for a long time. Fixes were made based on things like easy skill gains, so while,maybe a few people had a good advantage, that is not the case for all vets.

I know plenty of new players who have higher skills then some vet players. If you want to be able to go toe to toe with a vet then skill up. Wurm and combat and skills in general are not made to be equal. Combat for example is supposed to be a team effort. Now there are some game balances/imbalances that should be complained about way more then people being able to use yoyo to gain body speed a long time ago.

[Vroomfondel 1,128]

I too have played for many years.  Last year I started a new char, my first in 5 years.  I actually found it much EASIER to gain skills on that new char than it used to be, so please stop whining.

[Wulfur 32]

Just one example.  Body stat gains were nerf not balanced.  One mans balance is another mans nerf.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Wulfur

[Alyeska 2,621]

Just one example.  Body stat gains were nerf not balanced.  One mans balance is another mans nerf.

 

Body control gains were buffed, they're faster to gain now than before.

Edited June 10, 2015 by Alyeska

[Uberknot 327]

The whole system is based on having to spend a lot time to get to the top.

 

Right now the Economy is Flooded with 90+ QL.

 

Unless you buy into it its a long road and getting longer everyday.

[Arvid 64]

I stumbled upon this article today.

 

"Nothing great was ever accomplished on Comparison Lane"

 

So true

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Then don't focus on those players. Put them in the same category as the players who have grinded up those skills. Those people still paid a subscription, probably coc tools, etc, to get where they are.

 

Instead, focus your services on the players who need your products/services. There's no sense in moping about the people who don't as that gets you nowhere.

 

Exactly. That's like worrying in RL "why wasn't I born rich like Prince Charles" or some such. Next time around maybe you will be. What is for sure though is that if you only focus on what you don't have, what will come to you is more of the same - that feeling of lack.

 

If you feel really driven to compete, why not find some others who want to make a little game of it, and all of you start from a similar starting point? Why beat yourself up about competing with people who aren't in the same "race"? If some people started before you and have high stats, why worry about that? While they were working on them, you were busy doing something else you were enjoying. Let them be mentors and have your own fun.

[chademaster 33]

I think what people are getting at is 'life isn't fair'. That is true. 

 

 

Wurm doesn't have to be life. 

Edited June 10, 2015 by chademaster

[LorraineJ 1,099]

there are so many games out there (almost all of them) where people can find their amusement in that form of play, why do they need to come here for that....

 

In the end I will always have a problem with people being able to get ahead of others by just waving money - especially in this game..

 

Why do I come on Wurm for amusement? Blame that on the developers, they shouldn't have made crabs so cute, or the trees so lovely.

 

"Just by waving money" - where do you think this money comes from that people use to buy characters? Did they not use their time and energy to obtain it? If they have some extra scraped together after life expenses, they then say, "Ok now I have some time to myself to have fun. How do I want to spend it? Do I want to do this super boring grind hour and hour and hour after hour, or should I get a character someone is looking to sell, and get on with the fun things I feel like doing?" YOU ARE NOT IN COMPETITION WITH THEM. Everyone is letting their freak flag fly. If you are really wanting to focus on selling things... I think I'd focus on doing that in RL, where the return is WAY better. I complain as often as possible about how long it takes to sail around Xanadu. I utterly refuse to do it myself, but people on Xanadu sell things to me. My stomach hurts when I know they've spent 2+ hours of their actual life sailing to bring me, say, some veggies, that ALREADY took so many hours of their life to make, for a profit of what? Like 2% of minimum wage of one hour? This game, you gotta play it for fun. There's no way to compete on an utterly even playing field, and the rate of profit is too low to sink your RL hours into it for the sake of "commerce." And stop looking at money as something bad. Welcome it into your arms. 

[Macadelic 199]

This post was about the nerf to skill gain ticks over the years.

 

 

 Wurm is in a much better place today as a whole than it was years ago but I stand on my original statement Vets had a much a easier time gaining certain skills before than the newbies of today have.

 

The skill gains were nerfed because it was a problem, not to make it hard on future newbies. When these types of issues are uncovered, they are handled by the devs appropriately, in an effort to prevent further damage to the game/economy. Skill gains are not supposed to be easy. Once the tweak is made, the only option to mend the damages done is to reset the questionable skills of the active players at that time. That wouldn't make much sense as it wasn't the players fault that the mechanics were behaving a certain way at a certain time. They were just playing the game and striving to get skill ticks just as we do today. If this option was utilized at that time, they would have most likely lost some customers, which obviously wouldn't have been the best business decision. The bottom line is that the nerfs were not put in place to hinder new players. They were put in place because they believed that these were the best moves to make in order to make the game better as a whole.

[Elwood2 352]

K

[Macadelic 199]

Thanks. Bye!!

[LorraineJ 1,099]

Also my quarrel is not with people that worked to get their skills and became autonomous (hermits) through their own power - i actually respect those people a LOT, but with people that bought the skills and chose an easy way into a hard (albeit much easier game than it used to be) game - that essentially ruins it for those who want to follow the path of building something themselves.

 

WHY does it ruin it?? I'm busting your chops about this a lot because you seem like a really nice person, and I hope you'll have a perspective shift and realize, what the hell everyone else is doing does not affect how happy you can be. Why should what anyone else did bear any influence on how you feel about something nice you did? You set out to do something, and you achieved it. That's great, right there. What anyone else was doing has nothing to do with it. Even what they think about it has no reflection on it. If you feel you must compete, then round up a fair competition, with other people who agree that's what they're actually doing, and all of you play by the same rules. How does worrying about what other people are doing make any sense in the way you're applying it? I have no idea you are "competing" with me. I don't buy an account because of how it might affect you or anyone else - I have like zero patience for repetitive tasks. Your own achievements can't be "ruined" by what anyone else is doing, ever.

[LorraineJ 1,099]

By not having accounts sales there will always be a somewhat equal balance in supply/demand for any skill. With account sales the demand for any skill sinks constantly.

 

Ah this idea is part of the problem with people wanting enchant decay. How about if everyone focuses on getting  NEW BLOOD into the game, instead of resenting and milking more out of the handful who stay. Imagine all the newbies you could be selling to, and being a kind mentor to and thereby their go-to person for sales, if there WERE some.