Would you still play wurm if you could no longer trade silver for real life money?

[Kadore 926]

Hell yea! Those who vote for ''No'' are not true wurmians,shame on you!!

Shame on me, what about Rolf who graciously made connections with player auctions to help people do so, hope you dont fall on your way off your high horse.

[Kadore 926]

WTF. It's a GAME. If you want to make money go get a job ya bum. 

I have a job and have money, I'm thinking when I finally quit I'll sell my scale and other assets to help fund my carpal tunnel surgery.

[Ripsipiirakka 104]

I just realized, that the only way to stop silver/gold sales, is removal of money ingame completely.

Which wouldn't work at all in wurm's favor.

 

Think about it, and you cannot just simply change the whole system on the run either. Because a lot of people has bought silvers through the shop. And that would shaft the customers up the ass.

And if you remove the silver buying from the shop, it will increase the value of silvers ingame expotentially.

 

Yeah you can dream on of living in a world without money, but it will never happen. If its not money its something else, livestock, metals, fur, and everything with even marginal value can be used as currency.

[Mordraug 2,542]

I have a job and have money, I'm thinking when I finally quit I'll sell my scale and other assets to help fund my carpal tunnel surgery.

 

I can't argue with that... 

 

[KanePT 699]

I wouldn't mind... Cause basically i'm not even playing...

Now, really, i don't think its something that would make me play more or less.

But, and this is a major but, the whole Wurm economy is based around that same premiss of a "free market" between players both for items, currency and Real money, and it was pretty much designed that way from the get go.

So yeah, while i think this wouldn't kill Wurm for me, personally. Shutting it down all of a sudden without big changes to the whole economy system, could actually kill the game.

[Fawkes 1,567]

I don't care either way, since selling silver gives such an awful return for your time.

But there are some positives to bring up: a ban on selling silver = a ban on buying silver (for lower prices than the shop, at least), which cuts down on the pay-to-win aspect a bit. Plus it'd mean a reduction in the ridiculous greed that we see in certain parts of the community, meaning fewer updates centered around "the economy" and more updates centered around providing actual content.

[Kadore 926]

I don't care either way, since selling silver gives such an awful return for your time.

But there are some positives to bring up: a ban on selling silver = a ban on buying silver (for lower prices than the shop, at least), which cuts down on the pay-to-win aspect a bit. Plus it'd mean a reduction in the ridiculous greed that we see in certain parts of the community, meaning fewer updates centered around "the economy" and more updates centered around providing actual content.

I dont believe if sales were eliminated player to player it would change any perceived pay to win aspects as they are usually brought up by those who dont want to pay much if anything to play.

 

Greed is always a matter of perspective, and by who is pointing the finger.

[bdew 2,462]

I'd totally pay 2x the premium to play on a server (or cluster) where RMT (both by rolf and by the players) is disabled and it's isolated from the RMT-enabled clusters.

Edited June 1, 2015 by bdew

[Zakerak 442]

For me is Wurm quite expensive. What you will pay in McDonald to fill your belly, will pay decent food for whole my family for day or more.

 

So possibility to gain coins ingame by trade or payed works is way, how I'm able to play this game. Remove it, and it will remove me from game (after I will use my current reserves).

[Ayes 3,715]

The problem with players selling silver/gold coins is that it very much lessens game income since players undercut the Wurm Shop price and only the strange players like me will then buy coins from the Wurm Shop anyway.

 

As I mentioned in another thread there is a way for the game to reduce this income bleed-out. That would be to remove the ability to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep with silver/gold coins by requiring payment to be made for these things with real life currencies only through the Wurm Shop.

 

The rest of the silver/gold system could remain the same but it just loose the ability to be used for these things that I mentioned. The Wurm Shop would still sell silver/gold, as well as players, which then would be used for the rest of in-game trading. Under a system such as this there would be no need to remove the ability for players to sell silver/gold coins since the Wurm Shop income would be much less significantly effected by these sales, as these silver/gold coins could not be used to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep.

 

Anyway, obviously I would still play the game whatever direction things go in this respect since I have no dependency upon selling silver/gold coins.

 

=Ayes=

[rixk 830]

The problem with players selling silver/gold coins is that it very much lessens game income since players undercut the Wurm Shop price and only the strange players like me will then buy coins from the Wurm Shop anyway.

 

As I mentioned in another thread there is a way for the game to reduce this income bleed-out. That would be to remove the ability to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep with silver/gold coins by requiring payment to be made for these things with real life currencies only through the Wurm Shop.

 

The rest of the silver/gold system could remain the same but it just loose the ability to be used for these things that I mentioned. The Wurm Shop would still sell silver/gold, as well as players, which then would be used for the rest of in-game trading. Under a system such as this there would be no need to remove the ability for players to sell silver/gold coins since the Wurm Shop income would be much less significantly effected by these sales, as these silver/gold coins could not be used to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep.

 

Anyway, obviously I would still play the game whatever direction things go in this respect since I have no dependency upon selling silver/gold coins.

 

=Ayes=

That would remove the reason for people to trade at all. Think a bit.. Why do people trade? To do exactly what you want to remove - pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep.

[Ayes 3,715]

That would remove the reason for people to trade at all. Think a bit.. Why do people trade? To do exactly what you want to remove - pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep.

 

While it would shift the focus of why and what people would Trade for, it would not remove the reason to Trade within the game. Crafters, enchanters, hunters of unique items would then still be able to sell them for silver/gold coins but then these silver/gold coins would only be used for these and other in-game exchanges as they currently are (excluding the purposes I have mentioned previously that you have listed above).

 

This is really more the norm in online gaming since you can only pay for your subscription with real life currencies through their website. Also they have online shops where you can only purchase certain items through it. In the circumstance I outlined Deed placement and Upkeep payments would be restricted to the Wurm Shop for income purposes in the same manner.

 

The fact that Wurm is set up to allow players to circumvent making these payments to the Wurm Shop and thus the game's income, is the peculiar one in terms of online games and something that I can't quite grasp as being a good idea; but hey, that's just me.

 

=Ayes=

[rixk 830]

While it would shift the focus of why and what people would Trade for, it would not remove the reason to Trade within the game. Crafters, enchanters, hunters of unique items would then still be able to sell them for silver/gold coins but then these silver/gold coins would only be used for these and other in-game exchanges as they currently are (excluding the purposes I have mentioned previously that you have listed above).

 

This is really more the norm in online gaming since you can only pay for your subscription with real life currencies through their website. Also they have online shops where you can only purchase certain items through it. In the circumstance I outlined Deed placement and Upkeep payments would be restricted to the Wurm Shop for income purposes in the same manner.

 

The fact that Wurm is set up to allow players to circumvent making these payments to the Wurm Shop and thus the game's income, is the peculiar one in terms of online games and something that I can't quite grasp as being a good idea; but hey, that's just me.

 

=Ayes=

Silver is similar to gift cards. Every silver in circulation has been bought for real cash. So techically some people just pay for others Premium time/deed upkeep/deed placements. And from Code Clubs perspective it doesn't matter from which bank account the money comes, when I buy premium time - from mine or for example yours. I get prem time and Code Club gets paid.

Edit: Now you probably point to the fact that players also do trade silver for real money. That is good because otherwise most of the money would eventually accumulate on established players pockets and they have no reason to use it.

Here I quote someone from another thread, I copied the post, but forgot the name of the poster already, sorry: "In order for a market economy to function, the capital must flow throughout it, not just stagnate in a pool."

Basically allowing such trades, is to keep money circulating.

Let's face it.. there are many things wrong with Wurm and Rolf makes (IMO) many stupid decisions.. but economy isn't one of them.

Edited June 1, 2015 by rixk

[Simyaci 407]

As a person who hasn't bought wıth/sold for real money, I think that if wurm made deed upkeep and such only paid from wurm shop like ayes suggested, wurm would also need a system to regulate real money trades between players, become a safe bridge and maybe even take a little commission. Otherwise, many people wouldn't be able to pay their deed upkeeps and other things that may be binded to wurm shop smoothly.  Many would just stare at their buildings getting decayed with loads of silver in their hand, hoping their topic for selling silver on forums would get a solid reply. If it is a very small ammount, then it would be less likely to get a reply. So if CC make such a huge change, they should add other things to support it so everything doesn't fall apart together.

 

An easier and both player and codeclub friendly change might be giving players ability to buy items such as merchant contracts, rod of transmutation and such directly from the wurm shop with a little discount (I don't know ıf that would effect the people who own traders because I don't know how they work so please forgive me on this one if such a suggestion brings harm to some players). Maybe %5-10 or even %15-20 depending on what will do better. And same could work for deed upkeep. Buy 10 silver worth of deed upkeep for your deed from wurm shop with discount. If someone is making money from wurm, I'm sure he'd rather buy the discounted one, no matter how little the discount is provided it makes a difference. Players could still pay for all these ingame without the discount, should they choose to do so.

 

Forbidding real money to silver trade would make it go underground like others said, and many people (who are willing to spend real money on the game) would get scammed and quit. That's obviously not good. They couldn't even come to forums and say ''this guy scammed me so don't buy from him etc.'' because he'd get bashed by the players saying things like ''Oh you sinner you had it coming, you deserved it! begone!'' while few 'players' would show up and defend their  'friend' accused of being a scammer saying things like ''oh I knew him ever since I was  a toddler, he is a great guy and I can ensure you he is not a scammer or a seller because I can look into his mind and soul. Also, he doesn't even know how to use internet let alone make such transactions!'.

 

It is also true that codeclub isn't benefitting much from the real money to silver trades aside from the multiple premium accounts, therefore losing some big money they could earn instead of the players who sell the silvers (provided people would still have as many expensive items to spend big silvers on, with so many highend crafters and their alts gone). So it would be better in my opinion if codeclub found a way that would keep everyone pleased and still grab money from both the potential silver buyer and the silver seller. Keeping the market and playerbase as it is, not taking away anything from anyone and even giving them more possibilities while bringing more money to the game. 

 

I think many people would still be fine with it if they didn't change anything on this matter and leave it as it is now. But if they do make a big change, I hope it is one that pleases everyone or at least the most, whatever that change might be.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Simyaci

[Wurmhole 3,650]

I think only in the old days with dragon farming, could you actually earn enough to be worth the real lift time spent. Now, earning silver and selling it will pay far less than most 3rd world child labor sweat shops. So shopping it or enabling it... Doesn't really matter to people for RL income, but there is something extra sweet about earning your own play time. It feels lile "beating the game". I am someone that puts more money into the game than what I get out. Trying to change that and sell off some of the explesive stuff and get back to basics. I guess I would be bummed if they put an end to RMTs before I unload more stuff.

[Ayes 3,715]

Doesn't really matter to people for RL income, but there is something extra sweet about earning your own play time. It feels lile "beating the game

 

Yes, this is the problem when "beating the game" involves reducing its income or the potential for it. A strange business concept to enable by creating a system that bypasses chief game income generators (Premium time, Deed placement and upkeep). No denying this is the effect.

 

On the other hand more game income enables hiring paid Developers to enhance the game in a progressive direction. The less money generated the slower the progress. Perhaps this is why so many bugs are around that players complain about, since a small paid Dev staff can only accomplish so much.

 

=Ayes=

[eldarian 166]

The problem with players selling silver/gold coins is that it very much lessens game income since players undercut the Wurm Shop price and only the strange players like me will then buy coins from the Wurm Shop anyway.

 

As I mentioned in another thread there is a way for the game to reduce this income bleed-out. That would be to remove the ability to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep with silver/gold coins by requiring payment to be made for these things with real life currencies only through the Wurm Shop.

 

The rest of the silver/gold system could remain the same but it just loose the ability to be used for these things that I mentioned. The Wurm Shop would still sell silver/gold, as well as players, which then would be used for the rest of in-game trading. Under a system such as this there would be no need to remove the ability for players to sell silver/gold coins since the Wurm Shop income would be much less significantly effected by these sales, as these silver/gold coins could not be used to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep.

 

Anyway, obviously I would still play the game whatever direction things go in this respect since I have no dependency upon selling silver/gold coins.

 

=Ayes=

also alot of people play this game only because they are able to pay for premium that way...if that is removed i think that the already low wurm population would drop so drastically that that wurm prices would have to be increased just to maintain the same profits they obtain now....

 

trade is only influenced because of the fact players need silver coin to pay for premium time, about half the work done in game is done because we the regular more experienced players buy silver from shop to pay for new people to do small labor jobs because we are to lazy to constantly collect matts....and due to this new players who can't aford premium are now able to premium up and establish thereselves in game....tbh there is more negative things that would happen if the ability to sell stuff in game was removed then there are benefits from it....as an experienced player this doesnt effect anyone who plays the game and does everything or is capable of doing everything thereselves due to there skills....imo the removal is more against new players and those who struggle to remain playing due to not being able to afford to pay for everything in the game with real currency....

 

this applies to anyone who has real life issues that come up, the ability to pay for in game premium or deeds in game is a huge part of this game...

[eldarian 166]

Yes, this is the problem when "beating the game" involves reducing its income or the potential for it. A strange business concept to enable by creating a system that bypasses chief game income generators (Premium time, Deed placement and upkeep). No denying this is the effect.

 

On the other hand more game income enables hiring paid Developers to enhance the game in a progressive direction. The less money generated the slower the progress. Perhaps this is why so many bugs are around that players complain about, since a small paid Dev staff can only accomplish so much.

 

=Ayes=

but you don't get it the income would decrease if all this was removed....people would sell abd buy illegally against the rules, making it a huge profit industry in the sence gold farming websites would pop-up, 2nd new players whos tart out by trying premium because of in game currency enabled wouldnt ever become premium, wouldnt ever experience the idea of being premium and so therefore they wouldnt buy premium and thats less profit, if normal buyers of silver coin who buy it to pay players for doing work for them or whatever can't hire people anymore since the new ppl cant pay for premium in game then thats less money being spent ont he wurm shop....in the long run removing any of the suggestions about in game premium, in game deeds, selling ingame items, accounts, silver, it is all things that would hurt this game in the long run, because wurm don't have the population base to support those kind of changes.

[Tinkerer 107]

There is no 'gold farming' in Wurm like there is in other MMO's. 'gold' is not created within the game as loot drops and quest rewards. There is no need to fear gold-farming websites for Wurm.

 

Look at the economy as a whole. The money within the system is from (initially) people buying silver from the Wurm shop.

 

Money leaves the system from deed placements and upkeep (though not all.. some is randomly distributed through other mechanics, of which some is still removed due to saccing) and from people using in-game coin to pay for premiumship (Note.. this is twice the rate from buying through the shop).

 

Now. Given the various sinks, there is always a need for extra coin to be put into the system - to offset the gold-sinks. This can only come from one place, and one place only. The only place that generates new coin, is the Wurm shop.  Allowing players to trade coin for real money makes no impact on the current amount of coin in the game. If anything, it should increase sales.

 

Why?

 

Because by enabling player trading of cash, the in-game currency is clumping together.. some people hoard it to build up a suitable amount to sell. Therefore there is less loose change floating around for everyone else that isn't hoarding it, and thus more needs to be injected to allow trade and decent circulation.

 

Buying from another player simply shifts one horde of coin from one person to another. That coin has already been paid for when it entered the system. Other players still require coin. The system still requires coin to balance the in-game sinks. (Deeds, in-game premium time, saccing of rare and supreme coins...)

 

 

Preventing in-game premium purchasing or deed upkeep kills off those players who for one reason or another can't use the shop.

[Ayes 3,715]

There is no 'gold farming' in Wurm like there is in other MMO's.

The only place that generates new coin, is the Wurm shop.

Wrong on both counts above. There is certainly the ability to make vast amounts of silver/gold coins within Wurm. This then translates into either making game payments (Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep), purchasing in-game items from other players or selling off these silver/gold coins to other players. Doing any of these various things reduces game income potential, since it allows players to avoid paying for these services from the Wurm Shop or purchasing silver/gold coins from there to use for in-game trade. How this does not translate into "gold farming" eludes me, other than some strict definition of it which it deftly avoids to cover its intent.

 

The Wurm Shop is not the only place that generates new coin either. Rolf has enabled various coin giveaways within the game. Those being the Trader draining mechanism, Token sales of items and rare coin drops. These "free" copper/silver coins do not come from the Wurm Shop but rather from game income that Rolf decides to give back to anyone who devotes their time to pursuing these free coin mechanisms.

 

While on the surface it may seem to some that Rolf is printing money out of thin air in this manner, this all derives from the profits which the game makes which is then reduced by these coin giveaways and abilities to avoid making payment to the Wurm Shop for other game related expenses (Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep).

 

Now if you want to consider all game profits coming from payments to the Wurm Shop and translate that into that into "the only place that generates new coin is the Wurm Shop", you have the basis of where the *ability* to create silver/gold coins comes from, that being payments to the Wurm Shop. Then also what needs to not be forgotten is the few other game income generators such as exclusive Trader items, mailing system payments and Merchant sales charges (I think because I have never had one myself). Fortunately for game profits these can not be avoided or bypassed by other means if one wants to use these services, other than where the coins originated from, which then means the game can not make any income from these services as well.

 

 

Preventing in-game premium purchasing or deed upkeep kills off those players who for one reason or another can't use the shop.

Although this may happen to some degree, since with my suggestion some players may decide to cut back on these game income generating expenses (Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep), since they are not actually paying for these services to the Wurm Shop anyway no income is lost other than by residual effects. Either these types of leader-loss players will cut back on things other than Premium time for one character or they will quit the game completely.

 

I would not use the term "can't" use the Wurm Shop to describe this situation but rather choose not to. If these game income generators were structured so they could only be purchased from the Wurm Shop, then yes choices would have to be made as to how much players would actually be willing to pay to play their desirable game style.

 

Now notice also that I have never stated that the ability for players to *sell* silver/gold coins should be removed or curtailed in any way, only that their ability to pay for Premium time, Deed placement and Upkeep be removed by requiring these services to be paid from the Wurm Shop only. Players can continue to sell their silver/gold coins that they make within the game in any manner they choose, although of course the demand for them would be reduced since they can't then pay for these game expenses with them.

 

Not that I think for a moment that my concept to retain game income sources in this manner will be implemented but I only go on with clarifying these points for the sake of substantiating them as factual effects. So have no fear *anyone* of your ability to make or receive free coins in game being reduced or your ability to pay for Wurm expenses with them being changed by my "ranting's".

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

Edited June 4, 2015 by Ayes

[Tinkerer 107]

Ayes,

 

I think you are slightly missing my point.

 

You are almost correct when you call trader-items, mailing fees etc as 'income generators', but it would be better to associate all 'coin sinks' as the developer's income.

 

There are two methods for the developers to get income. One, being premium purchased from the shop (a very direct route for income) and, Two, the currency removal from the game by means of coin sinks.

 

The purchase of coin from the shop, while it puts cash into the pockets of the developers, isn't really their income. It is the removal of it from the system that is the steadier and more accurate income. Whatever is removed, needs to be replaced by player purchases from the shop. Coin purchase is erratic, the game sinks are steadier.

 

There are many sinks.. some of which are not 100% sinks, a few are. Some re-distribute a percentage of the coin from the sink among the playerbase in a reasonably fair way - especially with the addition of finding coins and so on (taken from the Kingdom pool)

 

In-game premiumship, deeding and upkeep are perhaps some of the greatest coin-sinks in the game (even though not 100% sinks). Allowing these to be purchased with in-game coin (and don't forget premium is twice the price this way) is very beneficial to the developers in terms of removing coin from the game system.

 

Although you could argue that if it was external only, then it would be more direct and quicker income, but it would lose those players that rely on ingame payment options, and at the same time, the value is cheaper and thus provides less income. (as far as premiumship is concerned at any rate)

 

Reducing such sinks would also mean there is more coin floating in the system and piling up on various accounts, which in turn would actually increase players trading it for cash - especially if their primary uses of in-game coin are removed.

 

Player trading in-game coin really has little effect on anything. Coin can only be 'created' (added to the game-system) from the wurm shop. Coin is only 'removed' from coin-sinks. Anything else is just the moving of coin from one player to another. Allowing it does not in anyway affect income for the developers. It does not affect how it is 'removed' from the game world. Player A might purchase coin from player B for real cash, but it has already been purchased from the wurm shop, and is on its way through the system to one of many coin sinks.

[Kadore 926]

 

Ayes,

 

I think you are slightly missing my point.

 

You are almost correct when you call trader-items, mailing fees etc as 'income generators', but it would be better to associate all 'coin sinks' as the developer's income.

 

There are two methods for the developers to get income. One, being premium purchased from the shop (a very direct route for income) and, Two, the currency removal from the game by means of coin sinks.

 

The purchase of coin from the shop, while it puts cash into the pockets of the developers, isn't really their income. It is the removal of it from the system that is the steadier and more accurate income. Whatever is removed, needs to be replaced by player purchases from the shop. Coin purchase is erratic, the game sinks are steadier.

 

There are many sinks.. some of which are not 100% sinks, a few are. Some re-distribute a percentage of the coin from the sink among the playerbase in a reasonably fair way - especially with the addition of finding coins and so on (taken from the Kingdom pool)

 

In-game premiumship, deeding and upkeep are perhaps some of the greatest coin-sinks in the game (even though not 100% sinks). Allowing these to be purchased with in-game coin (and don't forget premium is twice the price this way) is very beneficial to the developers in terms of removing coin from the game system.

 

Although you could argue that if it was external only, then it would be more direct and quicker income, but it would lose those players that rely on ingame payment options, and at the same time, the value is cheaper and thus provides less income. (as far as premiumship is concerned at any rate)

 

Reducing such sinks would also mean there is more coin floating in the system and piling up on various accounts, which in turn would actually increase players trading it for cash - especially if their primary uses of in-game coin are removed.

 

Player trading in-game coin really has little effect on anything. Coin can only be 'created' (added to the game-system) from the wurm shop. Coin is only 'removed' from coin-sinks. Anything else is just the moving of coin from one player to another. Allowing it does not in anyway affect income for the developers. It does not affect how it is 'removed' from the game world. Player A might purchase coin from player B for real cash, but it has already been purchased from the wurm shop, and is on its way through the system to one of many coin sinks.

 

Sadly no matter how many times and different ways this is explained, people always think people are robbing Rolf, it's been explained to death over the years in all the old traders are used by bad people threads.

 

Thanks for the clear explanation, perhaps it might sink in for a few.

[Eldurian 86]

Yes, that's not why I play but I will say I find the hands off approach of Rolf on this matter incredibly refreshing.

It would be a sad day for Wurm if he took the same route as most of the other developers in forcing these transactions into shady/backroom deals.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Eldurian

[FranktheTank 1,901]

don't care

only downside I can see is devaluing of characters/items

[Arronicus 641]

I would for sure and no one can stop people from withdrawing money it would just mean that we would have "gold farming" spam all over the place, lol

 

BUY WURM GOLD NOW AT WWW.MADEUPWEBSITE.COM

link is broken. any other good sites?

On a more serious note? I couldn't care less. I've played wurm since... 2013? And never once traded silver for real life cash, and yes, I own a deed. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Arronicus