Change is Coming

[Battlepaw 585]

There is often such a disparity between the goals of the development staff and the actual reality of gameplay in Wurm that effects the entire community.    Some are the result of bugs, and some policy.   Examples of Policy, is letting players who abused gameplay mechanics, in complete defiance of the rules on exploits get away with it, and have it chalked up to "windows of opportunity"    This has to stop.    It encourages players to use a bug for personal gain then tell staff only when they feel it's convenient, because they know it's unlikely there will be any consequences.   If players know they will be rewarded only if they didn't abuse the bug,  or if the reward far outweighs the potential benefits.  

 

Currently it does not.  Players know that skills won't be reset, and players won't be punished for exploits, as long as they aren't caught, or if they think they are about to be caught to finally tell a GM.         

 

I ask you, does the GM staff feel this is an issue worth looking into in terms of policy?    

Edited May 25, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Sila 339]

i just hope higghways will be better protected in future, right now is realy bad and everyone who deed them can change them as they want.

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

Can someone explain me in childish English what this topic means and in particular for epic?

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Can someone explain me in childish English what this topic means and in particular for epic?

The OP talks about how GM decisions in the past about a case doesn't necessarily represent the way they will handle a similar case now or in the future. The OP also talks of how in the near future, the game rules relating to item replacement and reimbursement issues, general play rules, trade scamming, disruptive players, third party tools and modifications, etc. will be redone to be more specific so that it is very clear who's responsibility is who's, and what sort of compensation everyone will get for a known bug that has affected them.

Looks like it has nothing to do with Epic, aside from general game-play rules that will be rewritten to be more clear.

Later on in the thread, Tamorlane also mentions the following: 

For the Freedom cluster, it looks like they're going to try and work some kind of PVE-PVP co-existence... which could be done right this time, instead of forcing PVP on those not interested.

I am hoping that it's something along the lines of allowing a player to toggle PVP on and off for their character and deed (with a cooldown of 24-48 hours). That way, all people interested in PVP can do so across all Freedom maps and the people not interested in it can continue to play avoiding that play style.

(For clarity sake, I would expect the Chaos server to stay PVP specific... meaning no one could toggle PVP off there.)

Edited May 25, 2015 by As_I_Decay

[geode 292]

This post just makes me sad, geode.

 

So you're saying that there's no way someone who likes the sporting aspect of PvP can live in harmony with players who enjoy PvE? I'm sorry, but you are quite mistaken and your attitude is disturbingly counterproductive. You are right that some players seem to share particular traits that make them mutually exclusive, but that's on both sides of this debate. What really needs to stop happening is the constant bad-mouthing and spreading of false information that I have seen from both sides of the fence. In fact, the attitude you describe in your post is more often found in the PvE environment than the PvP one, because on Chaos there are consequences for your actions that cannot happen on Freedom. People who refuse to "play well with others" have been pushed off the server before, because once you lose your kingdom and have exhausted all other kingdoms, you have no way to really survive. 

 

It also isn't "kill their neighbor". This isn't unfettered slaughter on Chaos. It's Kingdom vs Kingdom warfare. You don't step out of your house to insta-death. Raids happen, but they're not quick and they take planning and time to execute. I mean just look at the battles here: http://wild001.game.wurmonline.com/battles/?C=M;O=D That's a log of all the deaths with anyone over 20 fight skill, if I recall correctly. There's also a number of PvP players that have Freedom deeds for various reasons. For me, it's the freedom to have a deed that I don't have to defend. That doesn't make me opposed to having to defend a deed, I enjoy both styles of game play.

 

Basically, please consider your post and your attitude. From my perspective, you're making general accusations and assumptions that you cannot defend. This isn't about choosing a side, this is about finding the best way to make it all work together.

 

Like I said, I will wait until the changes come out to see exactly what they are, and how they effect the whole before I say anything else. I do this as much out of respect for the Staff as I do out of respect for the Players on both Server types.

 

As Wurmhole said above, the advance warning that "Changes are Coming" is a boon for us.

Edited May 25, 2015 by geode

[Tarator 100]

Hello

 

 

I don't want to come across as a bit dim but I honestly after reading this 6 times have no clue as to what is being said , could some one explain it to me like i'm a five year old ? 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Tarator

[Lei 346]

Hello

 

 

I don't want to come across as a bit dim but I honestly after reading this 6 times have no clue as to what is being said , could some one explain it to me like i'm a five year old ? 

 

 

Basically the GMs and other staff will not respond to every little thing a support ticket is placed for. They will outline what a support ticket can be placed for, and if it does not fit that criteria they may not respond. They're also going to probably stop with "reimbursement" in the sense that if something is lost to a bug, they may not replace it because it has been abused in the past.

[Keenan 5,539]

Hello

 

 

I don't want to come across as a bit dim but I honestly after reading this 6 times have no clue as to what is being said , could some one explain it to me like i'm a five year old ? 

 

What Lei said, but it's more of a heads-up that change is coming. As Timur said, some of the existing policies and rules were created because game mechanics were either non-existent or broken in such a way to ruin the game for others. It makes sense that as the mechanics are added and fixed, that some of those rules and policies be changed or removed as they're just redundant and they take up too much of our volunteer staff's time. 

 

We always complain that there's not enough transparency and communication from Code Club and the staff, GM Timur's post is an example of change there as well.

[Tarator 100]

Thank you Lei and Keenan , I now understand it  

[Becket 843]

Well from all my years playing online games it was known PvE and PvP do not play well together. Having a PvP toggle on players and deeds with a 24 or 48 hr. cool down could work. I wouldn't be screaming Hell No at it.

[Battlepaw 585]

Basically the GMs and other staff will not respond to every little thing a support ticket is placed for. They will outline what a support ticket can be placed for, and if it does not fit that criteria they may not respond. They're also going to probably stop with "reimbursement" in the sense that if something is lost to a bug, they may not replace it because it has been abused in the past.

 

Hmmm... though you are just speculating I'm getting that feeling too.    It's a bit frustrating that it normally takes 2-4 hours on a good day to get an issue resolved.   I remember one ticket that went on for 4 days.   Granted it has a lot to do with an issue, the current wait times especially in PvP environments are borderline unacceptable.    I have no issues about the quality of service when there is a response to a support ticket, but the whole ticket system itself greatly slows down the response time.    

 

Say you get stuck on chaos inside a wall during PvP.   You are dead.  You can't support it in time even if it would have saved you to get a resolution if it would have been even 20 mins wait time.     Most fights are over in about 5-10 mins tops if the groups are large.    If you log out, you can't respond to the ticket.    I've noticed building walls, gates, and other entrances extremely buggy since the last couple of updates, especially when leading creatures.      I've not had any issues with getting the stuff resolved, but the problems occur all the time, and its compounded when you have the PvP memory leaks and lag on top of it that can make leading creatures or trying to get through buildings properly difficult.     

 

There has to be some GMs on call that can see issues, when the ticket goes up, because it takes an average of 10 mins just for the ticket to get forwarded to a GM.   I had an issue with a hacker on Chaos a while back, and it took 20 mins for a GM to respond to the individual who put in the ticket, which was granted the quickest response time I've ever seen in a GM, but typically if someone wants to use a throwaway account to hack they may already have gone in that time.      

 

Under the old system with GM chat, the GMs could see instantly and respond instantly to urgent issues.  It wasn't always possible, but I would get response times on even minor stuff of 20-40 mins at the most rather than 2-4 hours.     

Edited May 25, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Chiqa 742]

Hmm I can't get fired up about something that may happen at some time in future but I don't know exactly what it is. 

  Back to the forge for me until I actually see what may or may not change .

[Pandalet 1,848]

I really hope this is the start of a new era of transparency.  I haven't played Wurm nearly as long as many, but as someone who writes software for part of my living, I'm appalled at the lack of information provided to customers in change notes and other communications from staff.  Please, no more ninja changes.  No more hidden mechanics.  The people who don't want to know, don't have to look; those who do, should be able to get the info.  If you'd like an example of what a proper game documentation system should look like, have a look at the Dwarf Fortress wiki.  Rather than inflicting "it's more fun if you don't know" on everyone, allow your players to make the decision for themselves.

 

I applaud your efforts to unify and codify the rules - the current situation reminds me of a campaign in the UK where the police are having to ask parents not to make them out to be bogey men ("if you don't behave, the police will come and drag you off to prison!") to their kids, as they want kids to see police as someone to work with and go to for help, rather than someone to be afraid of.  GMs should be trusted and approached for help, not feared or hated.  I strongly suggest that once you've enumerated the list of things you won't help with, you still respond to requests for help with these things with a considerate, caring response, instead of just ignoring it, or "your ticket was closed".

 

I'm too cynical to get excited about this until I see some decent progress, but I'm all for fixing some of the crippling problems that Wurm has - many of which are completely non-technical.  I'm sure you've got lots of posts lined up, and I'll be reading them with interest, but for now, please let us know how you, the senior staff of Wurm (and thus presumably the people who know more about game direction and priorities) feel we, the common players can help make things better.

[Ayes 3,715]

An excellent post Tamorlane! I see this topic more centered around how the GM's will deal with player support in the future and new mechanics that will be put into place to further protect players from unintended actions of a detrimental nature both by bugs in the game systems and player abuse.

 

This portion stood out to me as a positive statement that needed to be made clear: "But we also are not in a position to intervene in cases where there is a clear player obligation to act in their own defense. Incorrect permissions, misunderstandings of valid and intended game mechanics, and even choosing to trade with other players that might not be the noblest of Wurmian’s are not going to be the Game Staff’s responsibility to mitigate when something goes wrong."

 

All too often I see players abdicating their own responsibility and attempting to cast the blame on GM responses, lack of proper documentation that leads to perfect clarity of how certain settings work or supposed bugs. Often this is just a diversion from the fact that the player could have prevented the problem that they encountered. Then things are imagined to have happened that actually did not, since the person is so adverse to accepting their own responsibility in the situation.

 

So the change to come would be to reduce these types of situations by both adding more preventative mechanics and giving more clarity on which types of situations the GM's will respond to and which not. Hopefully along with this would be an explanation of the new mechanics added and their function rather than the current "joy of discovery" method. I think this is a positive direction for the game to pursue.

 

As for pvp being enabled in some manner on the PvE servers, I saw absolutely no mention of this other than an aside comment later on which could be interpreted in various ways. Then again this wild speculation results. If anything the great blunder of allowing pvp players to descend with their wrath upon the PvE players as mentioned here, "But if you were around for the resoundingly acclaimed (!) opening of the home servers to PvP, and the brutal and direct fallout that ensued that led to Independence and a renewed focus on the PvE player experience", is something that will never be repeated again.

 

I see the PvE/pvp comments by Tamorlane more as an idealistic notion that the two disparate play styles within Wurm will somehow live in harmony with each other. A pretty farfetched pipedream in my estimation since they are diametrically opposed within their core structure and outcomes. Each has their own place within Wurm certainly but they should always be kept safely separate one from the other, with the coding of each not compromised for the benefit of the other as well. 

 

All in all the future of Wurm looks brighter for all players, with the contents of the OP stating another positive direction that it will pursue.

 

Safe Travels

=Ayes=

[LilyPhoenix 51]

[removed, because I already said it before]

Edited May 26, 2015 by LilyPhoenix

[Lolabelle 597]

  if you were around for the resoundingly acclaimed (!) opening of the home servers to PvP, and the brutal and direct fallout that ensued that led to Independence and a renewed focus on the PvE player experience, you should recognize that the developer knows there are two factions here, and that they both have merit.  The future is not ours to know of course, but I have the utmost faith that every stakeholder will have a seat at that particular table.

OM That was so crazy. Glad they have seen the light.

[Klaa 4,872]

Hrm change... panic or embrace the inevitability?

[Markcrow 107]

All this speculation and reading things into what's been said. When you boil the post down to the basics, all that has been said is this: The game has changed (very obvious observation) and how we are going to respond is going to change as well. We'll let you know the details sometime in the future.

[Mordraug 2,542]

All this speculation and reading things into what's been said. When you boil the post down to the basics, all that has been said is this: The game has changed (very obvious observation) and how we are going to respond is going to change as well. We'll let you know the details sometime in the future.

 

Well hey, one sign that changes are seriously needed is when the mention of changes triggers a wave of skepticism among the playerbase eh.

[joedobo 1,187]

I'm looking forward to reading these staff policy letters to the community. For the longest time I'v always assume the worst case because I'm unsure how staff and moderators think, work or act (in regards to staff/moderation stuff). 

[Brynden 69]

 and why exactly is it that gms have to keep a the results of support cases secret? because someone at the begining decided that was the rule and now its just how its always been?

 

i dont see what would be so wrong about having a griefing subforum where gms post the result of cases so we know who was really griefing and who was accused falsely.

[iDisOrder 6]

Quite new here to Wurm and I'm commenting to follow the development of this and see where it goes.

I didn't read every comment on the last 4 pages but I did see some mention of combining PvP & PvE servers?

It interests me to see where that in particular winds up.

I'm not as old as the top end of the demographic you mentioned, but I'm close enough and I have no desire to play a game with any form of PvP involved.

[spellcast 983]

 and why exactly is it that gms have to keep a the results of support cases secret? because someone at the begining decided that was the rule and now its just how its always been?

 

i dont see what would be so wrong about having a griefing subforum where gms post the result of cases so we know who was really griefing and who was accused falsely.

 

actually, we USED to post them to the community. Even had a nice forum for the cases.  

UNFORTUNATELY, there is a subset of the playerbase that regarded getting into that forum as a challenge... a  'red badge of courage' for griefers so to speak. With proxies and throwaway emails people would create accounts JUST to do something obnoxious so they could get a name in the section, but with no way to link the name to a 'normal' account.

 

There were also some other, larger communities that didn't actually PLAY wurm, but had members that knew about that section and would come just to get a name in there.

 

On the whole, outing the players to the community at large caused more issues than keeping the info private does.

 

 

Quite new here to Wurm and I'm commenting to follow the development of this and see where it goes.

I didn't read every comment on the last 4 pages but I did see some mention of combining PvP & PvE servers?

It interests me to see where that in particular winds up.

I'm not as old as the top end of the demographic you mentioned, but I'm close enough and I have no desire to play a game with any form of PvP involved.

 

There was no mention of combining the servers, that is not something the GM team would have any control over anyway. The mention was simply of trying to create bridges within the community of players and reduce the amount of... verbal sparring... shall we say, on the forums. Trying to find common ground for suggestions about improving the game that we all enjoy.

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

There was no mention of combining the servers, that is not something the GM team would have any control over anyway. The mention was simply of trying to create bridges within the community of players and reduce the amount of... verbal sparring... shall we say, on the forums. Trying to find common ground for suggestions about improving the game that we all enjoy.

 

TBH, it will always be "us vs. them" until the code is completely separated for both sides or until we're literally playing side by side.

Personally, I don't care which of the two happens, but I will make an educated guess and say that, on the development end, it's going to be easier to meld the communities together than it is to separate the code. 

[Gaeron 551]

TBH, it will always be "us vs. them" until the code is completely separated for both sides or until we're literally playing side by side.

Personally, I don't care which of the two happens, but I will make an educated guess and say that, on the development end, it's going to be easier to meld the communities together than it is to separate the code. 

 

Code-wise I see no issues with a single code base, conditionals for PvP / PvE or even configuration options to enable/disable PvP elements depending on what the server is presented as.

 

Game-wise it would be a serious mess. Wurm does not have PvP, it has KvK under which PvP has been enabled. Having PvE running around on a KvK server is almost the same as allowing F2P alts get up to their tricks on a Premium only server. Never ends well.