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Collision Clarification

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Im unclear as to how bridges are a bad thing , if your deeds settings are correct then your things are secure ( no ? ) and no one can build a bridge near you if you do not want it ( can not build in perim ) 

 

I think in some circumstances, in the drop the server does not perceive that you are now inside, so it doesn't apply the deed rules to you being inside the deed/inside a house were you are not on the writ, and hence you can pick stuff up even if the deed has a no pick-up rule and you don't belong in the house.

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Also... 


 


From the "heads up" (which is in no means a heads up) here:


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/93345-feedback-request-on-fence-stuff/


 


"We have the fix to this already, closing the hole at the top of the fence but it isn't ingame yet. "    Soooooo where's the fix?  You're not extorting us into expanding 7 tiles from our fences.  I know letting griefers loose and unobstructed SEEMS profitable at a first glance what with people expanding and hiring templars, but all you're helping profit is other games.


 


And.... 


"We would try to hold this implementation off for as long as possible since obviously you would need preparations but once a decision is made it would probably happen after a month or two."    <---- You wouldn't accept this statement if we applied it to our payments now, would you?  Oh and here's something they may not teach in Swedish schools..... a patch note out of nowhere does NOT constitute a month or two of warning.


Edited by Mordraug

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I also like the changes , I see zero problem with them ,my deed settings make my deed secure, my deed is open to all I even put a highway thru the center of it , I would love drop ins ! ( in every sense of the word ) I do not understand the need to wall of a deed when playing PVE, there is nothing better than wandering the servers and admiring peoples build styles .

You don't have to understand, those who love to live in behind the walls don't understand the need to keep everything in the open.. Whether you understand each other is completely irrelevant. Some people are more social, some like to keep to themselves. And you won't force anyone to be more social, whether in game or RL.

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From the other thread, apparently the "fix" is now that you "bounce forward  through the air" when you fall. Someone did pictures showing how they could "forward bounce" into every animal pen and open air balcony on their deed by using this so-called flying/"falling with style" technique:


 




People put up fences for 3 reasons. They either want it for decorative reasons, to keep people out, or Both. Right now fences are pretty much decorations. I have tested this and have been able to enter almost every animal pen I own from just falling. I have also managed to fall onto a second floor balcony and a fifth floor balcony. Luckily the second floor balcony has a door but the fifth floor one had a ladder which runs the whole way up and down allowing someone access to all floors.


 


In this first pic here I not only managed to fall down a 154 slope but land 4 tiles over, a little more and i would have "fallen" completely across a 3 tile balcony. I landed on the second floor


 


 


JVDtVEu.jpg


 


 


 


This next pic is the 197 slope on the back of my deed I managed to walk right off it and land over the fence on the fifth floor balcony.


 


6tBUXuz.png


 


I know people are gonna say with proper writ and deed settings it should not matter. I have to disagree that it matters for 2 simple reasons. People who build fences to keep people out did so with the intention to KEEP people out. The other is from simple paranoia that a lot of people do not trust the deed and writ settings from being exploit free.




 

I think someone said they could get as far as 7 tiles "deep" into a deed by this brand new Assassins Creed parkour minigame. 

 

Now you may be asking "how is THAT even a fix???"

 

 

It would appear to help prevent people from "falling into" small fenced mine entrance enclosures, by bouncing them right over the fenced in section.

In other words, it would "help" a tiny number of people (some of whom were likely falling into mines on purpose), by making everyone's deed almost completely accessible if they live nearby to any sort of hillside. (On Indy, that is most deeds I have ever owned or lived at)

I have a great many "open air" balconies on my houses and buildings because I love them, and now I am told all I need to do is put a gigantic ROOF over my entire deed and I will be just fine.

 

Or, "simply" rebuild the entire deed into some sort of PvP style military bunker system.

 

People ARE going to be testing and using this to gain exploits from others.

 

It's like a brand new MINIGAME was added to Wurm, just for THEM.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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You don't have to understand, those who love to live in behind the walls don't understand the need to keep everything in the open.. Whether you understand each other is completely irrelevant. Some people are more social, some like to keep to themselves. And you won't force anyone to be more social, whether in game or RL.

I unfortunately can't force anyone to do anything ( and did not mention anything that remotely resembles a demand )  now if I could the world would be mine ! * insert maniacal laugh* 

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Are we going to be held liable for not allowing people to escape from our on-deed enclosures if it's obvious their intent was malevolent to begin with?


Edited by Xallo

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And I don't understand how this is going to REDUCE calls to GM, which is apparently the entire purpose of the change.  It seems to me more likely to ESCALATE calls to GMs, both by the invaded deed owner and by the people bouncing into deeds and now asking the GMs to get them out again. (It seems to me from past experience with writs, that if a person tried to log into a writ that they no longer had permissions on, the game would instead log them into the game outside of the building.  So the trick is, you BOUNCE into a balcony to get entrance to a locked house that you are denied entry to, do whatever you came for, cannot get out the front door so now you relog and you are now safely OUTSIDE the locked house and not trapped in a building that you never had permissions to enter.  Since there are periodic exploits using the TAKE hotkey as well as other periodic exploits and bugs, you might find a way to play a brand new game of WurmBurglar.


 


 


 


If it fails to even achieve the original purpose (reducing calls from people falling into enclosed mines), then it was a bad "fix" to begin with.


 


Interesting idea but fails to solve its purpose, and instead creates NEW problems.


 


Revert.


Edited by Brash_Endeavors
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Oh! Is THAT all?


This could already happen in some rare cases though.


 


I'd just like to ask the GMs to change their approach to clearing people when stuck on other people's enclosures. You should check their logs to see if they picked up anything before clearing them out. Would prevent any grief in these situations, because they surely can't get out and keep what they took after they get in on this way, at least not without Gm intervention (or a BoK).


 


[Edit] After scrolling up and reading Brashe's post. Wtf Devs?


One thing is FALLING a WAY different thing is FLOATING down.


Fix your numbers, people are falling WAY too slow, there's no way the jumps she's describing should be allowed.


Edited by KanePT

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I'm also not seeing anyone talk about *surviving* the falls discussed. I'm sure a short fall over a low wall is survivable, but can we be sure that a player can survive falling from enough of a height to clear a tall one? Or with the idea that no one likes, to leave a deed tile between your walls and a slope, can a player survive *that* fall? I'm not making a challenge here, I'd just like some one to test the theory and provide feedback on it.

I went over a tall wall just as easy as a small one and did it from 100ish downward sloped road and got maybe a very light wound. Got maybe a very light or light dropping from 197 slope onto a 5th floor balcony. I didn't really get much damage at all until i had jumped a few times in a row while testing letting the wounds stack. Its pretty safe to say no one is really gonna go "splat" falling down most slopes.

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Also, if someone calls a GM to get them out of a deed, and they're at the deed's border in strangely deserted horse pens and there's a strange 100-slope dirt mound just sticking out of perimeter, is the GM gonna look twice before catering or is the deed owner gonna find himself punished for not also leaving the exploiting little sod milk and cookies?


Edited by Mordraug

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I've tried to break into my area from the high points with a brand new test toon not affiliated with my village in any way and with no permissions to my stuff. I got stuck in the fences a few times, and upon logging out, it logged me out outside of the fence. I wasn't able to jump over one, but perhaps I wasn't high enough or going fast enough. I'm sure with a quick 1 x 5 tower I could get over it.


 


However, the only accessible area on my deed in that manner, happens to be the one that I recently re-designed. I also happened to had not yet removed the various gates from that area.


 


So, in my case, they're staying. Someone may get in over the wall in that section, but they'll have no less than 3 layers of gates to contend with once they drop in. Other sections could be vulnerable, depending on how high a tower is made in perimeter and the drop/fall/float rate.


 


I took light wounds from falling down in the latter tries, but on the first try when I hit a building, I did not take any damage at all. Only when I hit the walls.


 


So if someone builds a tower/ramp in perimeter tall enough and lands on a building, there's a good chance they'll take little to no damage. Making these impossible falls viable for griefing and the like. Something which needs looked into and explored further.


Edited by Belrindor

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Does this mean that when you chop down a tree, and it falls on your horse-drawn wagon, those horses are going to get wounded? or the wagon is going to get damaged? Or if it falls on a wall, will it not go through the wall, and damage it when it falls on the wall?


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Thanks for that clarification, it helps others look at redesign if they feel they need to.  You certainly can drop into my deed if you'd like.  I'm not sure what that would accomplish since you can't really do anything once there.  

 

 

IDK about this. Falling into the deed may confuse the game such that it doesn't realize the person just crossed into a deed, or into a building where the person is not included on the writ. The person can then just walk around and pick things up as if they were on the streets. You are relying on deed permissions that might not be getting evoked, due to the weird method of access.

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I'll quote the post:

 

Thirdly, there is a lot of discussion when it comes to the "legal enclosures" rule on the freedom servers. Adding flying would make it impossible to uphold that rule since you wouldn't even have to break a fence in order to land in someones enclosure. The rule already seems to create a lot of situations that end up in a grey zone of who is right or wrong which is undesirable so many on the team want it to go away anyways.

 
 

 

Please - who on the team DOESN'T want it to go away, and WHY? What possible good could there be of adding even more confusion and contention into the apparently beloved "grey zone"? There are enough things that could happen that could create a "grey zone," why purposely leave tons of issues in there to begin with? Sort out what can be sorted by rules and programming, and let the anomalies be a grey zone.

 

 

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As for all the hype about deed security being compromised, this would only be so because of improper settings to prevent losses, as has always been the case. Again, much ado about nothing.

 

Do you have a way to actually check this? Because unless the coding was very much changed from when it was moved from test, entering the deed in a weird way does not kick in the deed's and writ's perms.

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pZ2MjD1.png


 


Couldn't we just modify A so that B is a dead stop even if it's a low stone wall? So not everyone who wants to fence stuff in needs to build 10xlong houses?


 


A quick and dirty bandaid would be to replace all falling with sliding ... or is the new falling mechanic inextricably bound up with traversing bridges?


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Translation:
"We as devs failed and you as players will take the fall for it"

The literal fall as well as the figurative. GG.

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pZ2MjD1.png

 

Couldn't we just modify A so that B is a dead stop even if it's a low stone wall? So not everyone who wants to fence stuff in needs to build 10xlong houses?

 

A quick and dirty bandaid would be to replace all falling with sliding ... or is the new falling mechanic inextricably bound up with traversing bridges?

 

 

 

My understanding is that the original reason for the change, was because of people falling into fenced enclosures for mining entrances.  

This is what Rolf's post from two years talks about when it discusses "a fix is on the way"

So the entire point of the "bounce-over" was so that people sliding down a mountainside would "bounce over" any locked enclosed mine entrance (hence making them "fly" a short distance to clear the gates) and NOT be stopped by the fence and trapped inside a small locked enclosure.

That would mean they won't make fences STOP/HALT the bounceover because the entire point is to CREATE the bounceover.

 

 

So the real question is -- what is going to result in MORE CALLS to the gm staff -- a few people getting "stuck" in mine entrance enclosures, or many more people now getting "stuck" inside deeds PLUS potential griefing PLUS theft exploits.

 

And if they get increased calls to GM,will the next step be to require us to provide an escape outlet for anyone who falls into our deeds?

 

 

 

My belief is that they just substituted a trivial problem for a MAJOR PROBLEM.

Edited by Brash_Endeavors

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I'm torn on all of this for one main reason:

 

To me, this is a fix - not a bug and not a nerf.

 

Wurm has always seemed broken to me in terms of how a "3D" game should behave, because it never did behave like a 3D game. From the "pillar" layout of terrain to collisions, Wurm has always felt like a 2D game that was hacked to provide a third perspective. Now we see true 3D collisions, and possibly the start to a true 3D engine, and everyone is saying they broke the game.

 

I do get it though.

 

If you spent months to build a deed a certain way, your work should not be made insecure and vulnerable by an update like this. It would have been a far better idea for them to have instanced new 3D objects with the proper collision for new walls and fences and left the old objects alone. This might have made you destroy a building and rebuild it to be bridge-compatible, but I think that would have been a far better alternative to what we have now. It might be too late now, unfortunately. This was likely a fix to make bridges work, so in order to "undo" it, it might require taking back one of the biggest updates we've had in a long time. You will undo other people's hard work just to save your own. Is there a good solution?

 

I'm also not seeing anyone talk about *surviving* the falls discussed. I'm sure a short fall over a low wall is survivable, but can we be sure that a player can survive falling from enough of a height to clear a tall one? Or with the idea that no one likes, to leave a deed tile between your walls and a slope, can a player survive *that* fall? I'm not making a challenge here, I'd just like some one to test the theory and provide feedback on it.

 

Speaking of, from the sound of Wosso's post, it would seem that they are not treating these situations as player traps. I'm getting that from the fact that they're saying to "work with the deed owner" or even "suicide" before putting a ticket in. It sounds like wandering adventurers have more to lose really, if falling into your deed means they have to suicide. ;)

 

Lastly, the note about securing the places high enough to fall from is a rather sane idea. Most 3D games keep players out of areas they shouldn't be in by surrounding that area with walls, even if they are invisible ones. That's what they are suggesting to you now - is to surround these areas in such a way that you *can't* fall into them. Before you say "Well they can just make another dirt tower and fall from that" - I remind you that falling *does* hurt. If someone has to now fall from possibly twice the height to go over two walls, I don't think they're going to live long after.

 

Obviously you have not done much mountain climbing in Wurm I have fallen off Dragonfang mountain on Indi with only half damage and fell off Magic mountain repeatedly while helping a friend build a house up there and never died just a bit of cotton and ready to climb again. :ph34r:

Also you say this is a more realistic 3d well where in reality can you bounce over a 40 foot wall. :rolleyes:

This change makes the 3d less realistic not more. 

 

PS: Most of my deed is accessible to players but I do have an area I like to keep 'private' which is unfortunately right beside a mountain and with this change is no longer private

Edited by Bachus

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I just spent a wonderful two weeks working on a deed design that I felt would be the best defense within the mechanics of the game - only to have this completely ruin my plan.


 


I am getting just about ready to rage-quit a game I have paid over $20 a month to play for the last 6 years!!!!!!


 


We get awesome new features but then have to spend more money to protect against new griefing abilities created by the features.


 


What kind of ludicrous decision-making is this?


 


This is just about the last straw Rolf - I am serious.

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Im still waiting for Wossos explanation as why why he thinks a post made 1 and a half years ago which wasnt even directly related to this happening was ample warning for this change to come in and that we should have known about it. If thats the PR managers response then magranon save us all...


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I see no benefit to this system at all other than to allow for 'flying' which I don't thinks a particular good idea for the game as it makes boats redundant other than fishing.

You can still have flying in game, just allow *flying mode* mount pass through anything. The code exists for roofs to stop people passing through so I don't understand why walls don't, or at least, tall stone walls. I've glanced at previous posts and I don't see any actual legit use.

It makes the game feel more realistic, sorta (you'd prob break your legs in the process), at the cost of endangering the whole player base for malicious intent.

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Didn't seem I was able to shoot arrows over a wall but I can bounce over one. I failed to get a clear shot. But I managed to get a clear bounce.


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I see no benefit to this system at all other than to allow for 'flying' which I don't thinks a particular good idea for the game as it makes boats redundant other than fishing.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the benefit is bridges.  Without the change to the way the game handles collision models you wouldn't be able to pass under them or remain on top of them. It also allows for fences inside of structures i believe, since they no longer are infinitely tall, they should no longer block passage on floors above/below if they are in the middle of a writ. 

 

I am pretty sure I recall the first iteration of bridges on the test server way back when having those two issues anyhow. 

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I just spent a wonderful two weeks working on a deed design that I felt would be the best defense within the mechanics of the game - only to have this completely ruin my plan.

 

I am getting just about ready to rage-quit a game I have paid over $20 a month to play for the last 6 years!!!!!!

 

We get awesome new features but then have to spend more money to protect against new griefing abilities created by the features.

 

What kind of ludicrous decision-making is this?

 

This is just about the last straw Rolf - I am serious.

"keep it broken so my personal workarounds were not a waste of time"

  • Like 1

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