Wossoo

Collision Clarification

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The fact that this mechanical change was introduced in the same patch as the fabled bridges without any mention until yesterday troubles me. The lack of transparency and complete information in change logs and patch notes is a recurring theme that causes a lot of problems with the community.  We've been reminded almost monthly for years that "bridges are coming soon" but the only mention of this prior to yesterday is a post from 2013. It would have been nice for this to have been re-announced when the new Elevation map was announced so people could attempt adjust their deed plans accordingly. The deeds that have been built up for years around this mechanic are the ones that are going to suffer the most though.


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 seems like a pvp problem. deed it or lose it on pve.

Until a new permissions bug pops up?

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@Redd This was picked up and publicly mentioned by Rolf around a year and a half ago, in this thread.

With hindsight we should probably have reminded everyone of this again prior to the update going live last week, but Rolf is pretty clear in that thread that the new collision system would involve being able to fall over things the top of fences and walls in new ways.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  However, this was a no brainer.  This should have been reinforced every time there was any mention of bridges over the last year or so. 

 

Others have adequately detailed the security risks this provides, let me address the explorer risk. 

 

I like to explore from time to time.  This may include falling down a cliff accidently, part of a ladder strategy or to just get to the bottom.   Mountain climbing is now a lot riskier since we will now bounce right over the ladders it seems.  Secondly, the bottom of many mountains is walled off.  I can pretty much count on being able to walk along the mountain side of the wall and continue on around the wall.  No more, going to be trapped in a field that from the top probably couldn't even know would be a trap. This is going to make standard exploration a bit trickier for sure.

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Well i did some testing and i have a few "weak" spots on my deed but nothing that matters any except to the guy breaking in so i am good, lol


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Unless someone is willing to come clean with the list of 10-20 exploits on how to steal stuff on deed on pve (I really doubt they were all fixed last week). Then I do see this as a bit of a problem because of being able to karma out...or shoot, find a mailbox and mail the looted stuff out.


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Do you really think there is that much to be exploited? If there was loads of way to steal we would have loads of reports not just a few things for missing locks or wrong permissions. 


 


I have seen lots of deeds with all kinds of stuff you could get to like hota statues and they are still there today without any walls or gates up..idk


Edited by Kegan

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The clarification is very much appreciated, Wassoo. Being told to reevaluate your deed and not what needs reevaluated is disturbing. 


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Until a new permissions bug pops up?

 

THIS

 

"Getting your deed settings right" provides no guarantees in a world where adding bridges borks house, deed, and vehicle permissions, while killing off sea life.

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It doesn't even matter if something can be taken or not.. Just because something can't be taken, it doesn't mean, that everyone should be able to waltz into walled deeds. If someone has built high walls around their deeds and locked the gates, I think it is pretty clear, that they don't want visitors. I don't understand, why even make such a "backdoor".

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So when are airplanes being implemented?

 

If they can fly over Xanadu in light breeze faster than a knarr, bring it.

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If they can fly over Xanadu in light breeze faster than a knarr, bring it.

Well look at the uproar on falling into a deed imagine the response of flying being put in the game. 

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Well look at the uproar on falling into a deed imagine the response of flying being put in the game. 

 

Just leave out parachutes. hahaha Honestly, I hope flying is something not put into the game ever. I would prefer to have muskets and cannons long before we have Joust made real with pole arms and griffons.

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I'm more amused that Wurm now supports collisions in the same sane way that most modern 3D engines do, and it's a problem. 


 


Just some thinking - in a world with magic turrets, spectral templars guarding us, dragons, and priests that can wield magic - is it really that far of a stretch to implement a "magical barrier" feature? Even if it costs silver per month in upkeep, something that can be used to either Allow or Deny based on settings. For example, set it to allow all, then deny individuals by placing them on your KOS list - or Deny all, and only allow friends or allies, etc.


 


This would only work on PvE, of course. 


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I'm more amused that Wurm now supports collisions in the same sane way that most modern 3D engines do, and it's a problem. 

 

Just some thinking - in a world with magic turrets, spectral templars guarding us, dragons, and priests that can wield magic - is it really that far of a stretch to implement a "magical barrier" feature? Even if it costs silver per month in upkeep, something that can be used to either Allow or Deny based on settings. For example, set it to allow all, then deny individuals by placing them on your KOS list - or Deny all, and only allow friends or allies, etc.

 

This would only work on PvE, of course. 

So, pay for our secured deed tiles, then pay extra to secure them? O_o

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On PvP servers, settlement guards will be important in eradicating intruders, especially if they are from enemy kingdoms.

 

Maybe you guys haven't noticed but settlement guards are geriatrics who can barely walk or swing a sword nowadays let alone stop intruders falling IN your deed...

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On PVE I don't see any new issue with this. All my deeds are openly traversable to anyone, no walls around. If settings are correct the deeds are safe.


 


Have no idea on PVP as I have no experience, that can cause trouble I guess if the intruders plan properly.


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1. It is not possible to completely encompass your deed with buildings. The best case cenario is where you have a 1 tile fence between long houses. Someone can build 300 steep dirt tower next to any fence in perimeter. This means making houses to stop people from falling in isn't completely true. Also, I shouldn't have to waste many deed tiles for long houses to stop people from falling into my deed.

 

2. While its a hypothetical situation, we don't know what kind of permission bugs will pop up in the future. It's a fact there have been instances in the past where deed settings didn't protect us on deed. We had to rely on houses and fences to keep people out. For example, dropping low ql stuff in bulk bins with high ql items. 

 

3. I'm sure there is some weird and extreme example of how to work around this new change. But I shouldn't have to put forth lots of effort to work around it. What's so hard about having fences with collision which goes all the way to the "ceiling"?

 

 

I don't want people "falling" into my area so they can make GM tickets and complaints about me. I don't want to be bothered by GM. Further, people can get in my area and do grief tactics like open trade windows or emote spam me. And if I don't respond to them they may make GM tickets that I'm botting and GM will come harass me. I've had first hand experience with players who where grief me(imo anyway) in this way. I just ignored them and low and behold a GM shows up and starts messing with me. I shouldn't be treated like a criminal because I don't want to talk to someone.

 

Again, I don't want to be treated like a criminal. If some goof used meta-game tactics to get into my areas, then that is the bad person. Not me because I'm not responding to this griefer.

 

I have to be online to KOS a person. Also, on PvE I shouldn't have to use guards to kill people. I made fences in the past to keep people out of my areas.

 

 

WURM, RESPECT YOUR CUSTOMERS!

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@Redd This was picked up and publicly mentioned by Rolf around a year and a half ago, in this thread.

With hindsight we should probably have reminded everyone of this again prior to the update going live last week, but Rolf is pretty clear in that thread that the new collision system would involve being able to fall over things the top of fences and walls in new ways.

 

Im sorry but how is a year and a half an okay time frame for people to remember something as important as this? Not to mention the fact he doesnt even say "In the update when we add bridges your deeds will suddenly be vulnerable to flying people". It just astounds me that the only answer from the PR Manager is "We warned you in a thread which doesnt even say that this issue is coming 1 and a half years ago"..

 

"We probably should have reminded everyone" Yes yes you should have.

Edited by Redd

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@Redd This was picked up and publicly mentioned by Rolf around a year and a half ago, in this thread.

With hindsight we should probably have reminded everyone of this again prior to the update going live last week, but Rolf is pretty clear in that thread that the new collision system would involve being able to fall over things the top of fences and walls in new ways.

 

I'll quote the post:

 

As most of you know you can fall down into a fence or wall section and become trapped. We have the fix to this already, closing the hole at the top of the fence but it isn't ingame yet. However, it also means that you will be able to move over fences and stone walls if you can get high enough.

 

The good thing about this is that we could give you the possibility to fly in various ways. It is possible that it should be a fairly rare thing in Wurm but attainable to anyone who happens to find such a creature or ability and probably body control based. Such creatures should not be breedable.

 

The downside with flying is that it makes it a lot easier to get into areas and cause trouble especially on PvP servers.  That part could be fixed by adding arrows to settlement guards that easily shoot down hostile flying creatures or force them to land outside deed, so it's solvable. Even on freedom servers settlement guards could attack flyers that are not citizens or allies. It will become possible to jump over fences from the current dirt walls and rock sides though, especially if we add some jumping which we might want to.

 

Thirdly, there is a lot of discussion when it comes to the "legal enclosures" rule on the freedom servers. Adding flying would make it impossible to uphold that rule since you wouldn't even have to break a fence in order to land in someones enclosure. The rule already seems to create a lot of situations that end up in a grey zone of who is right or wrong which is undesirable so many on the team want it to go away anyways.

 
We would try to hold this implementation off for as long as possible since obviously you would need preparations but once a decision is made it would probably happen after a month or two.

 

Thoughts? This would have quite an impact on the game but flying and jumping is sort of interesting features. And we need to fix the getting stuck in fences/walls bug eventually.

 

 

Where does it say "collision" or "bridges" anywhere in that ***archived*** post?  And since when does a request for feedback constitute fair warning?  If you're gonna treat customers like idiots, at least be fair about it and remove that draconian "no staff bashing" rule that's sometimes twisted into "no criticism", so that at least we can give the reply said treatment deserves.

 

*Edit:  And furthermore:  "We have the fix to this already, closing the hole at the top of the fence but it isn't ingame yet. "

Edited by Mordraug

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I have 5 deeds on Independence.  None of these deeds are affected by this at all.  

 

I don't have fences against steep slopes right on the deed border tile.  I don't have any buildings with flooring as a roof against any steep slopes or on a border tile.

 

When I planned my deed, I left one flat tile of deed all around and then built my fences inside that.  It had nothing to do with this change, I just liked the fact that I had a tile of protection around my pens.  Most of my deed is open.  You can come and go as you please but you cannot take anything.  You can't 'fall' into my pens because I have no steep slopes with a fence against them and you can't build one because I have a deed tile between what you can do and my fence.

 

Remember, you can't walk around and just jump over things and I bet if you look around your deed, you'll probably find that you don't have a place where anyone can drop in.

Lucky you. I'm right next to a mountain. And I'm not about to move my deed because of poorly thought out coding that allows people to sail over walls today when they could not the last time I logged in.

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Wossoo pretty much described the situation as I had understood it before this explanation (eye m smert!). On the PvE servers I see no real problem for those who are not unfortunate enough to fall inside of enclosed areas from heights. The fallers are the ones who will have problems getting out again but I would think GM's should assist them if this is claimed to be unintended.


 


As for all the hype about deed security being compromised, this would only be so because of improper settings to prevent losses, as has always been the case. Again, much ado about nothing.


 


One thing I remember about Second Life is that they had a feature which would prevent anyone from being able to enter your property if enabled. In Wurm it could be looked upon as a repulsive KoS feature, rather than the current attacking one. If something like this could be implemented for deeds for individual names, everyone, friends, allies or what have you, it would really be a great system for allowing or disallowing others to enter deeds.


 


=Ayes=


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Is there an ETA on the update to fix the update which is going to cause more problems than it solved and fixed..nothing?


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Wossoo pretty much described the situation as I had understood it before this explanation (eye m smert!). On the PvE servers I see no real problem for those who are not unfortunate enough to fall inside of enclosed areas from heights. The fallers are the ones who will have problems getting out again but I would think GM's should assist them if this is claimed to be unintended.

 

As for all the hype about deed security being compromised, this would only be so because of improper settings to prevent losses, as has always been the case. Again, much ado about nothing.

 

One thing I remember about Second Life is that they had a feature which would prevent anyone from being able to enter your property if enabled. In Wurm it could be looked upon as a repulsive KoS feature, rather than the current attacking one. If something like this could be implemented for deeds for individual names, everyone, friends, allies or what have you, it would really be a great system for allowing or disallowing others to enter deeds.

 

=Ayes=

Sorry, but which deed setting is 'do not allow aggro mobs to attack people' Would hate to see someone drop into my hh pen and kill all of them because I have the wrong setting ticked/unticked. 

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