Posted May 20, 2015 Anyone who remembers GV knows the folly of letting wurm become a F2P environment. One of the things that really annoyed me when I first started playing was that there were no trees on all of GV island, the starter server back then for new players. The main reason for this was because players would stick around on GV and not cross over onto the the pay servers. They would fence in massive areas and intentionally deforest anything outside to discourage new players from settling near them. There were some people on GV for over 2 years, playing as FtP and they didn't want to leave simply because they liked being the guys that had all the multi-colored deer and their fenced in game-preserves, and they didn't want to compete with pay players. As much as I think that F2P is great, for some things it does not encourage players to support the game. I've paid a sub since I first started playing on Chaos and have been doing so for years, I don't even pay my sub with in-game currency. I've never looked back, even when I started to pay for more than one account at a time. Some of them would still be paying and some of them would be around to keep the economy going. Not everyone has a credit card that they want to use online. Wurm is a great game for free to play since they dont have to create new content and expansions like new raid encounters, new music, new character classes, new item sets, new pvp battlegrounds. The cost for each player is actually minimal, more players can only mean more profit for wurm. I think you have unfortunately confused this game with some other, er less enjoyable games I've played over the years that have been Free to play. I came from Runes of Magic, and that game is complete FtP hell. It was absolutely the worst FtP game I've ever played, where the developers basically gave anyone who was willing to spend tons of money on the game an I-win button. Wurm does release new content, and they do it without trolling their players by making them pay for it, or download payed DLCs, etc. More players will mean more profit for Wurm, but making everything F2P is probably the last suggestion I'd toss out there. I've yet to see any attempt to advertise this game, or relase it on Steam, Desura, etc. Then there is the simple issue that this is a niche game, and the kinds of players that don't have the money to pay a sub are often younger gamers with lower attention spans, and the sort of trouble I'd pay to keep off the dang game. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 20, 2015 Same. Ive played longer than most, and tbh I don't supplement my premium with ingame coin. Granted don't play nearly enough atm to maintain such a business ingame; though, the nice thing about wine is it imps itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 20, 2015 Some of them would still be paying and some of them would be around to keep the economy going. Not everyone has a credit card that they want to use online. Wurm is a great game for free to play since they dont have to create new content and expansions like new raid encounters, new music, new character classes, new item sets, new pvp battlegrounds. The cost for each player is actually minimal, more players can only mean more profit for wurm. If They don't want to pay for premium what makes you think they would invest in the game? Sorry a bit confused here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) You don't even need a card to play online, that is a complete myth.There are numerous ways to get currency online without a credit/debit card, available in most, if not all, countries. Most of which can be bought from a local convenience store. An example, UKash/PaySafe or even pre-paid visas here in the UK, I believe they have those in USA too. Disposable, completely safe. Banks insure your online purchases now anyway, no need to fear using your cards online, so long as you stick to Paypal and verified visa transactions with https connections.Hell, if you don't have anything like that, I'm sure someone would be happy to buy a Amazon gift card or iTunes gift card voucher from you for Silver at a competitive rate. Before 10 years ago (not even that long, more like 6-7) no one expected to get things for free, not even online.The pay wall, like it or not, keeps out a lot of undesirable people and actions. (Namely mass griefers/trolls, some get through still, but it is nothing compared to a F2P game) More F2P = even more bulk materials for sale, with no more buyers - all f2p would do is flood the game with very cheap resources, making it not worth their while for p2p players who had lower skillsMore F2P = even more 1x1 abandoned shacks - People join en-mass, leaving a trail of destruction behind them...some of which is permanent. (Nothing you can do but wait for houses to poof.)More F2P = even more deforestation and destruction of steppe/tundra/whatever To avoid serious griefing of public tunnels I want to suggest that you need to be premium to mine cave floors.An old quote from yourself. Just imagine if Wurm was fully F2P. We have a free trial that is extensive enough to give players a taste of what Wurm has to offer. With this trial, you can play for 2-3 weeks without hitting the cap for many skills as a complete beginner and discover all the possibilities ahead of you. Horses/Wagons/Boats etc. After that, you can choose to keep playing with the restrictions or pay a small fee to experience the full game.It's the best solution to keeping Wurm, Wurm. Edited May 21, 2015 by Outlaw Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Wurm is already f2p.There could still be premium with benefits even if the level cap was raised and tweaked for f2p. But its true wurm is not advertised at all so better try that first. Edited May 21, 2015 by Tsetse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 Wurm is already f2p.There could still be premium with benefits even if the level cap was raised and tweaked for f2p. But its true wurm is not advertised at all so better try that first. "Raised and tweaked for f2p" Er what part of "WE DO NOT WANT" don't you understand? Almost every time this is put up its by some scrub that hasn't seen what damage f2p has already done to the game without having a level cap raised. For that matter most PvP protections against f2p are all based on that low cap, that has never and likely will never change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) I just started playing Elderscrolls Online. One time fee to buy the game and no subscription needed. All micro transactions after that - which is NOT required to fully enjoy the game. Having a blast with my 10 alts there and quite possibly going to let most of my subscriptions lapse here. Tired of having a crappy account management system here and having to use a spreadsheet to do my own account management. (End mini rant) ESO is not f2p, it is is b2p, which you and your two accounts will notice if ZOS ever releases any new content and none of your alts will be able to enter new areas except in the most crippled possible way, and if you want to play with everyone else and not be constantly trolled as an f2p wannabe or be in any of the good guilds you will have to sub and stay subbed forever. Not even remotely the same comparison. oh and -1 Edited May 21, 2015 by ClericGunem Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) "Raised and tweaked for f2p" Er what part of "WE DO NOT WANT" don't you understand? Almost every time this is put up its by some scrub that hasn't seen what damage f2p has already done to the game without having a level cap raised. For that matter most PvP protections against f2p are all based on that low cap, that has never and likely will never change. Its pointless to base any development decision around how it effect Wurm pvp since it will never be a successful pvp game. No scrub will ever find enjoyment in being abused by neckbeards with serious in game advantages. The best thing for wurm would be to close chaos and keep Epic as a seperate pvp environment for everyone to access at any time through portals. Edited May 21, 2015 by Tsetse 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Its pointless to base any development decision around how it effect Wurm pvp since it will never be a successful pvp game. No scrub will ever find enjoyment in being abused by neckbeards with serious in game advantages. The best thing for wurm would be to close chaos and keep Epic as a seperate pvp environment for everyone to access at any time through portals. Are you seriously so inexperienced at playing wurm you haven't figured out yet, that PvP is situation and teamwork based? This also means that f2p alts have been used to great annoyance in PvP to do everything from move catapults, to get FS. This isn't just confined to Chaos, it happens on Epic too and everywhere PvP takes place. Your own ignorant views are quite noted, and there are many "scrubs" playing on PvP servers despite your overwhelming pessimism and the serious flaws in Wurm's PvP, that don't really put many off us off from actually playing even on Chaos. Your own attempts here to try and play into the freedom vs chaos bigotry that goes around just makes your argument into a joke. PvP is a big part of wurm, and trying to downplay the effects of f2p alts in PvP is just your attempt at dodging the issue. Wurms development isn't designed to build the perfect farmville, and if Rolf wanted to take the game into micro-transactions and F2P hell he would have done it long ago. I don't understand where you even remotely get the impression that the idea would ever be considered much less implemented. I've watched this game for years, an nowhere in that time have I seen any evidence of it changing. If anything Rolf would consider removal of all F2P features over actually adding any. Edited May 21, 2015 by Battlepaw Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 You brought up pvp and it seems you completely missed epic servers or the challenge experiment to make scrubs able to compete in pvp against neckbeards which ended in failure because theres not much interest in pvp to begin with. Elevation used to be premium only so obviously the developers understand pvp should be a premium activity to avoid griefing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 You brought up pvp and it seems you completely missed epic servers or the challenge experiment to make scrubs able to compete in pvp against neckbeards which ended in failure because theres not much interest in pvp to begin with. Elevation used to be premium only so obviously the developers understand pvp should be a premium activity to avoid griefing. Er, I did mention epic. I've also played on both Challenge and Epic, so yea I've seen how f2p affected both venues. I primarily play on Chaos however, and have been on there longer and most of my views are oriented to the specific problems f2p causes on Chaos, although I am aware of a few of the very different issues faced by both Epic and Challenge. I don't always advocate that it be removed, mostly because I have about as much faith in the development team to do the removal properly or come up with a final solution to the problem as trying to find a fart in the wind. The best we have been able to do is find and eliminate the issues f2p cause, the solutions are working, but are based on level caps, etc. All of which would be affected by screwing with them. Anyways, I started raiding as a "scrub" and what I can never figure out is how players like yourself are so misled that they think a scrub can't do anything. If they couldn't you wouldn't see me complaining about f2p alts, and there wouldn't be all those restrictions in place to try and prevent free alt abuse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 How about making Wurm free to play, but charging people to post in the forum? That would kill two birds with one stone... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 But I don't see why the solution can be something else then a flat ban on everyone who doesn't pay monthly fee. Why not something like a heavy penalty on death for f2p characters, then they are relatively safe on freedom servers but if they go to chaos or epic the neckbeard and his alt army is going to be risking too much for it to be worth it. They could also make combat more interactive even with something simple as improved stance management. People can play two accounts in cs:go, world of tanks, war thunder or league of legends too but they don't for obvious reasons. As long as you let f2p players progress but at a slower pace and with penalties and restrictions they will stay in the game perhaps pay some of their money rather then none. Its when they completely stop progressing at 20 or when their premium run out that they quit the game. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 21, 2015 So basically you want to blackmail players with increased death penalty, unless they play on PvE? Er basicly as it stands f2p isn't the norm. It's not meant to be the norm, it lets players get their feet wet. From what I've been reading here it sounds like you've never actually played on Chaos, or any PvP in wurm for that matter. Your own concept of PvP is so infantile a view I'm wondering if you've even bothered to watch videos on it. If players never have to Prem to get their measure of "full game" they won't. I've seen that with my own eyes already in Wurm and what you want to propose is just a repeat of the Golden Valley era, where people who were too cheap (even to pay the even lower sub back then) just stuck around and populated a tiny island long past the intentions of the game design. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 So basically you want to blackmail players with increased death penalty, unless they play on PvE? Er basicly as it stands f2p isn't the norm. It's not meant to be the norm, it lets players get their feet wet Change unless they play on pve for unless they pay premium... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 -1 I enjoy Rolf being able to pay the electric bill to power the servers... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 -1 to FTP-10 to micro-transactions where the person with the biggest credit card wins. Although I think Xandra's Idea of a FTP island could work sure there would be horders and griefers galore but perhaps by the time people got to PTP they would be sick of it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) From the way I see it Wurm is already F2P. As a customer I can play for free with limitations and risks, or I can get a deed and reduce risk, or I can go premium and reduce restrictions, or I can choose to do both. I can even choose to go hogwild and spend more money on this game (to expand my opportunities) than RL friends of mine take to the Casino, but that's another discussion. I decide how little or how much content I wish to participate in by how much I spend. Lots of choice and it allows me to play the game in a manner I agree with. As a customer I can't complain with how Wurm is structured right now in regards to deed costs, premium costs, and what we can and can not do. I find the restrictions on limiting skills to 20 for non-premiums as acceptable. I have no complaints about the pricing system/structure of Wurm Online itself. I see no reason to support the suggestion of the Original Poster. Edited May 22, 2015 by geode 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) +1 F2P is the future of MMOs. They are all heading that direction, with micro transactions for vanity, or to unlock more elite features, which are nice to have, but totally not needed to fully enjoy the game. You need to get the players hooked in hard, to be able to inspire them to start dropping their coins, to enhance their play, or show off a new outfit. F2P + micro transactions works. Games that force the subscription model are becoming dinosaurs. Hitting level 20 in wurm happens so fast, that it isn't realy enough time to make most new players feel fully invested, to the point where they are willing to subscribe. I play multi account for every MMO I play. It always makes the game more interesting to me. The thing I enjoy least is that pesky subscription. I always pay plenty more than any subscription, in every F2P game, but the fact that I have to keep a running subscription, or resub, when I want to use this alt or that alt is annoying to me. I just started playing Elderscrolls Online. One time fee to buy the game and no subscription needed. All micro transactions after that - which is NOT required to fully enjoy the game. Having a blast with my 10 alts there and quite possibly going to let most of my subscriptions lapse here. Tired of having a crappy account management system here and having to use a spreadsheet to do my own account management. (End mini rant) I see people quoting the euro per month cost. I don't deal in euros, I deal in US dollars, and it's typically more expensive in euro. Not so bad right now, but for a while there was a pretty steep increase. Last I checked 16 Euro was 18 USD or so. It's not just Premium fees. If it was just that, it would be fine. It's Deed fees on top of that, which is a double whammy. Yea, you can make that in game if you have a very skilled toon or are a merchant, or pour your entire life into Wurm. I can't do that, so I have to pay for my silver, which is an additional, and very steep cost. All added up, I'm paying over $20 a month USD easy. And that's just for two deeds, which aren't very big, all in all. A subscription to WoW or any other game is only $15 a month. Also there are those of us who don't live in the game nearly 24/7 like some folks. During my busy season I typically only have (max) an hour a night of free time, if that. And what can you really do in Wurm in an hour? Start a terraforming project that'll take you another 20 days to complete at an hour a day? Oh what fun! With a subscription I feel much more 'compelled' to play in order to justify the subscription/premium. Even when I don't WANT to play.That leads to BURN OUT, and a feeling that Wurm becomes a second job. I certainly don't feel right with paying a monthly fee for a service I may not even use that month, or may end up logging in for a day or two out of the month. And then if I DON'T pay the subscription fee, my toons are nerfed and I can't do crap. Which, in my opinion, is bogus. That which has been unlocked should stay unlock. (And don't even chime in here with PVP ramifications of F2P alts, I don't give a rip. Separate the damn code already! Either that or maybe ye all who PVP shouldn't be such douches to zerg each other with alts in the first place and maybe it wouldn't be a problem, eh? I dunno, maybe read up on things called 'sportsmanship' and 'honour' The sheer level of hatred some of those people have for each other is just beyond toxic. If you find yourself 'hating' your fellow players, maybe, just maybe, it's time to step away for a bit and refocus. Just saying. ) With a F2P or 'Freemium' model I can play whenever I feel like it. I point to LOTRO as an example. This in my opinion, is an example of a Freemium model done very well. You can subscribe or 'VIP', or you can do what I do now and that's play as a 'Premium' account(s). Once you pay for something and unlock it via Turbine Points, such as a 'zone', or a certain skill cap, or inventory bag or whatever, it's then yours forever. I'm recently back to playing LOTRO after the hiatus I took when Helm's Derp went live and they FUBARED the class system. That break was necessary for me to adjust to the class changes I hated. I ended up rolling new toons of each class I played and familiarized myself that way. My main is now level 100 and I'm having quite a bit of fun with it. Best of all, I can log in whenever I want, for as long or as little as I want, and my animals aren't going to die and items sitting outside of a structure in my deed aren't going to decay because I'm not constantly repairing them.To me this is infinitely more fun, because even though I can buy Turbine Points in the store, and have done so in the past quite a bit, it's not required. See, that is the key. Required.You COULD grind the Turbine Points, if you really, really, felt like it. But most people don't. When they see something they want, or when something like a spiffy mount or a zone they want is on sale, they'll buy some Turbine Points, and then buy what they want.In this way, the PLAYER is more in control of their experience, because they are paying for what THEY want to pay for. What is important to THEM. Be it mounts, cosmetics, housing, etc, whatever. They aren't beholden to an outdated subscription model tacked on with an exhorbitant cost of buying silver on top of that just to keep their deed running.I HATE monthly payments. I always have. It feels like a frickin utility bill. Subscription services worked well 10 years ago. Now, it's a dinosaur and it is definitely NOT the way things are going. Even WoW, will eventually (kicking and screaming) go F2P or Freemium. After going through Warlords of Draenor and hitting level 100, I cancelled my subscription until next expansion. There's no reason (for me) to pay $15 a month for something that has no content for me, and I'm not big on running the same dungeon 150 times to get a marginally better piece of loot. If it was Freemium, I'd play year round. Since I've played Wurm about a year and a half or so, I've put almost $1000 into it, between premium fees, silver purchases, and subscriptions on multiple alts. Heck, I even bought some of my old Alliance mates some game time when they were going through tough financial times. In contrast a year of WoW is $180 month to month, less if bought in larger chunks. A year of LOTRO VIP is $99 last I looked.So yea, Wurm is pretty damn expensive. Anyone who says it isn't, either doesn't have any alts, doesn't pay for a very big deed, if at all, or fricking LIVES in the game. For the rest of us, it's pricey. And for me, at the moment, the ROI (Return on Investment) is pretty shoddy. I'm not going to pay a sub for something that gives me very little in return based upon the time I have available to put into it. A Freemium model would encourage me to STAY in Wurm year round. As it stands.. NOPE. Edited May 22, 2015 by Belrindor 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 22, 2015 Well put Belrindor. I've played Lotro as well and did it all on points grind, to unlock everything. That grind is much less painful than mining, WC or a craft skill here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Its like 30$Au for 2 months.. make it so u can buy 1 month and 6-10 silver again ( without paypal ) Edited May 27, 2015 by taragoth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Well put Belrindor. I've played Lotro as well and did it all on points grind, to unlock everything. That grind is much less painful than mining, WC or a craft skill here. I played Dungeons and Dragons Online also made by Turbine. Their free to play system is really great and similar to what I suggested about buying to unlock the next step and more content instead of only having a premium option. I started playing with the idea to grind turbine points but I ended up paying for some items when they had sales which is also a good way to make people pay for things. Edited May 27, 2015 by Tsetse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) I played Dungeons and Dragons Online also made by Turbine. Their free to play system is really great and similar to what I suggested about buying to unlock the next step and more content instead of only having a premium option. I started playing with the idea to grind turbine points but I ended up paying for some items when they had sales which is also a good way to make people pay for things. Here's a very obvious hint to peeps opposed to 'free to play'. Free to play never really is, except for a tiny majority who is willing to sink the ungodly amount of TIME into it to make it so. Everyone else will eventually pony up some cash. And often in big ways, as people will pay for things when they feel THEY are in control of their gaming experience. Heck, I know people in LOTRO who spend thousands per annum just on cosmetics and then sit around the Prancing Pony in Bree roleplaying all day. They don't even quest. Their toons are like level 20. But they play the way they want to play and pay the way they want to pay. That's a concept that's not too difficult to wrap one's head around that people will pay much more for things when they feel they aren't being led by the nose. Many game companies (like Turbine) have figured this out. I read endlessly about Wurm's funding trouble. About how it can't pay to have more staff, about how Redbaron Johan got let go from lack of funding. Then I see all of these very solid options staring us in the face. If Wurm isn't making money, it's because Wurm doesn't WANT to make money. Or rather, Rolf refuses to do the things that will make it make money. And so, I've decided, if that be the case, he doesn't need mine, and I'm happy to spend it elsewhere where it's wanted and/or needed. Edited May 28, 2015 by Belrindor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
