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Nappy

PVP from a PVE perspective - Are the players all bloodthirsty?

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One of the giant surprises for me since embarking on my trial journey into Wurm PVP on Epic Elevation has been the absolute lack of poor manners and blood thirsty behavior that I have encountered thus far. Internal kingdom theft appears to be non-existent and I haven't yet seen an act of griefing. 


 


This contrasts greatly with the preconceived notions I (and I suspect many other PVE players) devised from reading the various PVP threads on the forums. It also contrasts strongly with the poor anti-social griefing and thieving behaviour I have either witnessed or heard about on the PVE servers.


 


In thinking about how I could have been so wrong with my notions I have come to realize at least part of what I think the reason is. The Wurm forums serve three main audiences when it comes to PVP. They are:


 


1) The general Wurm population with little or no Wurm PVP experience


2) The PVP interested people who haven't yet PVPed but go to the forums to learn more about Wurm PVP


3) The PVP players themselves who use the forums in many ways as an extension of their wartime strategy. They taunt, argue, and act nasty to each other in an act to draw the other kingdoms out of their safe fortresses and on to the battlefield. This matches many real-life strategies that were practiced in history.


 


I think it is unfortunate that the third group only has the forums as a way to advance their cause. Unlike the Freedom PVE servers the PVP kingdoms do not have a cluster specific channel (tab) to use to taunt each other to come out to fight. I think this is a great mistake because it leads to the forums being used instead with the net result that the first and second groups form what I am coming to believe are largely incorrect assumptions about Wurm PVP.


 


In terms of the general respectful behavior people seem to have for each other on the PVP server I think a lot has to do with the fact that actions have consequences here. When something happens you do not have to wait impotently for a ruling from afar. Instead you and your community can take action to properly judge the matter. Even the strongest player with the highest possible skills cannot stand against the might of an entire kingdom or server. As a result everyone from new players through to the high end players seem to be respectful in their behavior. While theft is possible it isn't something that is done lightly and there are definite consequences from doing it.


 


I have yet to witness an act of murder on Epic. Fighters die in fair combat with the enemy yes, cold, calculated murder no.


 


One cautionary note. In real life many people have a simple request that you call ahead before making an unplanned visit. This applies in PVP as well. The quickest way to die is to approach a village without permission. Simply contact the village recruiter first or at the very least as soon as you come into local, stop, take no aggressive action and explain what you want with an indication that if this is unwelcome then you will immediately leave. 


 


So if the preconceived notions of bloodthirsty PVP players are wrong then what is a typical day in PVP land like?


 


Most people on PVP servers do the same things that people on PVE servers do. They craft, farm, pray, meditate and grind skills. As part of always being prepared when they hunt they tend to use one handers with shields instead of two handed weapons. More time is spent making sure everyone has good weapons, good armor and good horses. Combat skills like shields and shield bashing also receive a lot more attention. Automated fighting is largely turned off in favor of manual fighting (well worth a try btw if you haven't done this yet).


 


The threat of a PVP attack is the glue that pulls people together in a common direction. Unlike the single person villages back on PVE here it is not uncommon to have a village with 30+ people and rare is the day when less then 5 people are playing together during the same time.


 


Other differences are that in PVE if you are building something you typically end up doing all the parts yourself. In a PVP village it is common to hear someone ask if someone has a high skill in a certain area and ask them to assist. Money doesn't exchange hands. Instead when a favor can be returned it is.


 


PVP players often use a form of vocal communication software like TeamSpeak. While optional and not required this type of additional software allows a village to easily interact and when the rare PVP action occurs coordination is much easier and smooth. This also means that the villagers tend to get to know each other more and with time that interaction becomes a very important part of the game.


 


As promised in my previous post I mentioned that in this post I would reveal the kingdom I chose to join. Before I do I would like to say why I picked the one I did.


 


When looking for a kingdom to join on Epic I wanted to emphasize the following key areas:


 


1) Continue to have fun in Wurm and if possible improve my gaming experience even further


2) Learn more about how this game works


3) Look for a group that is interested in dynamic/fluid guerrilla warfare  rather then static defense with very rare big battles. Emphasis on fun short fights where people can shake hands when they finish rather than an all out, razed earth approach


 


The only real guide I had in my search was reading the various village recruitment threads as well as the battle/skirmish threads. This point is why I started this post referencing the three audiences who read the forums.


 


Eventually I chose the Black Light HOTS kingdom on Epic Elevation. They had some fun sounding posts where they described a successful boat cutting out expedition on the old Elevation server. I also noticed that while this group also taunted other kingdoms they did so in a very respectful and fun sounding way - with class. Finally Black light is a part of Wurm I hadn't yet experienced so this nicely fulfilled my requirement to learn more about the game.


 


Three weeks into my time on Elevation I have to simply state that the BL HOTS group on Epic Elevation have exceeded my hopes tremendously. I have been welcomed into the fold and allowed to become an active member of the group. Helpful advice has been provided along the way and my own knowledge/enjoyment of the game has grown as a result.


 


The PMK White Light kingdom called Rome has also been impressive to me. They also seem to want to fight the good fight. Skirmishes do happen between the two kingdoms but again the mutual respect seems to be there. In my only PVP combat experience to date I must admit that I was surprised to discover that instead of firing fast arrows that flew hard and true the Roman Emperor seemed to have slow fingers so that the trolls that were chasing me were able to kill me before he could claim the victory instead! (grin)


 


Moi Rehan has made two very brief appearances near the deed. Each time it has been a decisive encounter that left both sides with a good PVP experience.


 


I have heard that Jenn Kellon is actually somewhere on the Elevation server. Hopefully the day will come when they leave their deed and come visit in full combat formation outside our capital city so that I can properly assess the effectiveness of their ability to wage battle. It will be an interesting experience to report.


 


I haven't experienced PVP death yet but I suspect when I do I will dread it less then I do a PVE death. In PVP death you only lose .25 fight skill and whatever you were carrying plus an affinity. In PVE you lose much more in the skill area. The equipment you lose in battle is replenished from village stores after the fight without charge.


 


Next post will likely discuss the Epic grind and how it differs from Freedom.


 


~Nappy


 


 


 


 


 


 


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Make shorter, was a good read, but could not finish.


 


lol otherwise +1 for first 5 paragraphs


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The forums are possibly the worst way to to get a picture of how the PvP community works.


It's an appallingly bad representation of the community as a whole for which the community only has it's self to blame. 


 


Good post. 


Edited by Emoo

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The length of the post is fine. It was very detailed And easy to read.

Thanks for sharing your experience thus far.

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Pretty spot on post. Couldn't have hit the nail on the head more accurately.

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now from a purely PvE perspective:


 


We see in forums all the strife, unbalancing, Rolf interference and bans that happen and it looks ugly.  Then, PvP players come here and loot PvE, because we don't have the PvP mindset and make easier targets.  In PvE, we want to trust everyone. Want to be friends, Want to share our stuff to help friends, allies and neighbors.


 


I get what you are saying about the community there and it totally makes sense, but seriously, from our perspective, it is hard to trust PvP.


 


That being said, when it comes to trading in forums with PvP players, I have zero complaints and many many transactions of goods and accounts.


 


What I would like to see is the PvE servers security changed to make player/deed/cart/boat/house theft an impossibility.  Remove the temptation to exploit weak security settings. It may be impossible, but who knows, maybe it could happen.


 


Great post by the way. I'm not knocking it, just adding some pure PvE impressions.


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i'll have you know, my bow is very bloodthirsty.


 


serious though, looking forward to these updates you plan on doing, its good, and its good having you on epic.


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Started recently with a friend on Elevation (MR chars Quambo (me) and a friend Wambo) and until now it's good, no one to kill us so far, the only thing that annoys me a bit is the lack of communication on Elevation, after several years on freedom you are used that the people talk to each other here they don't what is a bit sad. So all I can say after one week on Elevation is that it's definitely a good choice for freedom player that are bored after several years because they lost the feeling of a dangerous world or just plain annoyed by the lag on Xanadu :P to try Epic. Btw the skill gain and the curve make a new start on epic really enjoyable :).


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I suggested a chaos server chat, but people want to argue on forums and show how stupid the wurm pvp community is, even when its not. Oh well.


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Great post. Keep em coming.


 


Great to have you with us on the dark side!


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Kingdoms and specifically PMKs are families. Even when you're miles away from the action, your heart echoes through every catapult winch and sword clash. One thing is for sure. PVP in Wurm forges great friendships and even greater rivalries ;)


 


Enjoy.


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now from a purely PvE perspective:

We see in forums all the strife, unbalancing, Rolf interference and bans that happen and it looks ugly. Then, PvP players come here and loot PvE, because we don't have the PvP mindset and make easier targets. In PvE, we want to trust everyone. Want to be friends, Want to share our stuff to help friends, allies and neighbors.

I get what you are saying about the community there and it totally makes sense, but seriously, from our perspective, it is hard to trust PvP.

And just how many times has this actually happened? A pvp player going to freedom for the sole purpose of stealing and makeing your life miserable. Heh. Edited by Rudie

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Then, PvP players come here and loot PvE, because we don't have the PvP mindset and make easier targets.

 

Wait what?

 

Please don't make generalisations like this.

 

If you are refering to the recent spate of thefts and griefing on freedom, know that it has nothing to do with "PvP".

Edited by Alden

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It depends on which PvP servers you look at, too. Epic is the "fresh and new" place to go for PvP. It has a more active population and draws in more new players. There's less reason for people to flock to the much older Chaos server, so you're dealing with a much more stagnant group of players who are fighting the same wars and grudges that started years and years ago.


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Make shorter, was a good read, but could not finish.

 

:o

 

Oh come on - it took me less than 4 minutes to read the entire post!

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Great post. Keep em coming.

 

Great to have you with us on the dark side!

 

I think he meant to say the dork side.  :lol:

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One of the giant surprises for me since embarking on my trial journey into Wurm PVP on Epic Elevation has been the absolute lack of poor manners and blood thirsty behavior that I have encountered thus far. Internal kingdom theft appears to be non-existent and I haven't yet seen an act of griefing. 

 

This contrasts greatly with the preconceived notions I (and I suspect many other PVE players) devised from reading the various PVP threads on the forums. It also contrasts strongly with the poor anti-social griefing and thieving behaviour I have either witnessed or heard about on the PVE servers.

 

In thinking about how I could have been so wrong with my notions I have come to realize at least part of what I think the reason is. The Wurm forums serve three main audiences when it comes to PVP. They are:

 

...

 

~Nappy

 

Nice post, Nappy, I enjoyed the read.

 

There's an explanation why you are so surprised by the player behaviour, and it's that Elevation is not Epic. It's a frequent misconception, Rolf has it as well, thinking that Epic and Elevation are the same, in fact they're not. Elevation is a server very suited for the more competitive PvP-ers, with partly set goals and party set battlefields like HotA. Elevation has structure to it, one could even make the point that it's probably the least sandboxy of all Wurm servers. From the get-go you're part of a kingdom and who's your friend and who's your foe is set in stone. That leaves little room for griefing and anti-social activities.

 

That's quite a different beast than what you see on the Epic home servers though.

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The forums are possibly the worst way to to get a picture of how the PvP community works.

It's an appallingly bad representation of the community as a whole for which the community only has it's self to blame. 

 

Good post. 

 

YEP, in general this is 100% correct.  There is so much freaking drama on the forums it's hard to sort out reality from fantasy on a good day, much less when people try to bang their own agendas around.    

 

My own experience on Chaos has quite a long span and I've rarely ever had a problem with my own kingdom or community, or at least nothing that wasn't solved peacefully and with good manners.    The reason for the lack of internal issues vary but mostly amounts to the fact that you can't live on a PvP server if you piss off your mates.    

 

That said, the kingdom vs kingdom crap can get out of hand sometimes, which is why the forums are plastered with so much disgusting crap people spew.    I don't normally have any issues with players even when I'm bantering with enemies, or working with players from other kingdoms on Challenge, Epic or when I'm helping out with events on Freedom, its just a few bad apples that are a pain in the butt.    

 

The biggest issues I've had are actually dealing with PvE players that take their prejudice towards PvP players to such heights it borders on both bigotry and ignorance on the best of days.    In those instances, again it's normally just a minority of the community that act like that but tend to ruin a good conversation, or event for me whenever it happens, where as that rarely happens with other players from Chaos.  Even ones I regularly debate with on the forums over PvP issues, or who I've encountered on Chaos, or are currently enemies.        

 

On the forums, what annoys me the most is the complete entitlement some PvE players have that want the same kinds of rewards you get from Chaos, or Challenge, or whatnot, and don't respect the fact that the game is inherantly different.    It's both silly and selfish to think that everything should be the same for everyone, in a game built for a niche crowd and interpreted differently depending on how you play.    

Edited by Battlepaw

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The vast majority of PvP players are level headed, quiet, sensible, and fun. Yes, we mainly do all of the same things the PvE players do 90% of the time. The other 10% is spent on PvP activities. That small portion of playtime involves a lot of risk and will get the juices flowing. And in typical fashion, with lots of emotion, the drama is born immediately following an engagement.

PvP is brief in game. As a result of that, the drama must continue on the forums, and that is why the forums are always in that state. Having a cross kingdom chat channel in game would clean up the forums a good bit...if it wasn't for one thing. That other portion of the community that isn't sensible, level headed, or fun, would poop all over that channel 24/7. For that group of children are a very vocal group.

I'd still love to see something like a cross kingdom chat channel. You can always filter out the unwanted.

Nice post again Nappy. Have fun bubba.

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The vast majority of PvP players are level headed, quiet, sensible, and fun. Yes, we mainly do all of the same things the PvE players do 90% of the time. The other 10% is spent on PvP activities. That small portion of playtime involves a lot of risk and will get the juices flowing. And in typical fashion, with lots of emotion, the drama is born immediately following an engagement.

PvP is brief in game. As a result of that, the drama must continue on the forums, and that is why the forums are always in that state. Having a cross kingdom chat channel in game would clean up the forums a good bit...if it wasn't for one thing. That other portion of the community that isn't sensible, level headed, or fun, would poop all over that channel 24/7. For that group of children are a very vocal group.

I'd still love to see something like a cross kingdom chat channel. You can always filter out the unwanted.

Nice post again Nappy. Have fun bubba.

I wouldn't be against it, just as long as it was moderated.  Inter-kingdom chat should be left up to the discresion of the kingdoms that use it but a global channel wouldn't be bad.   

 

Last time Chaos had one was right after the set kingdoms were exchanged for making everyone freedom isles directly proceeding the introduction of PMKs.   It however, was not well controlled and there was way too much trolling.  I think I still have logs of some of it lol.    It wasn't intolerable though.    

 

A good alternative, is that the global freedom isles channel is also avaliable to everyone in every PMK, not just if you are Freedom isles, or replaced with a cluster global channel.    I's never made much sense why the entire freedom cluster dosen't have a global channel that anyone can talk on, and IRC is too clunky for most people to bother with.    

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Spot on breh.


 


Keep in mind that Elevation is a far different experience from Chaos and the home servers. I've almost solely played on Elevation and I look at home server dwellers as about equal to Freedomers. Probably half of home server players have never seen pvp, and there are countless deeds that look as if they were pulled from Freedom (no defenses).


 


Don't be afraid to PM other kingdom players and get to know them. While we all have a bit of bark in us on the forums, in-game a lot of us are different people.


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Spot on breh.

 

Keep in mind that Elevation is a far different experience from Chaos and the home servers. I've almost solely played on Elevation and I look at home server dwellers as about equal to Freedomers. Probably half of home server players have never seen pvp, and there are countless deeds that look as if they were pulled from Freedom (no defenses).

 

Don't be afraid to PM other kingdom players and get to know them. While we all have a bit of bark in us on the forums, in-game a lot of us are different people.

 

Same with Chaos for the most part.   I don't consider Chaos disjoined from the freedom Cluster even if it is indeed a completely different environment.   The communities are usually made up of decent people in any case.  

 

PvP is part of the cluster and not separate, just another aspect of it.   As long as that is true the game should encourage players across the cluster to interact freely with each other, and trying to isolate and divide the cluster is part of the reason why there is so much tension between PvP players and some of the PvE community on the rest of the cluster.     

Edited by Battlepaw

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Good post, enjoyed reading with my morning Cheerios, give it the official +onekins

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