Do not deal with Ant

[Galadhel 92]

 

There's also a difference between a theft report and a convicton for law breaking.

 

 

For the first part of that statement I can only say that english isn't my native tongue and that I often just dont know  the exact terms so i can be absolutely precise in what i WANT to say...so thats probably my fault to some degree.

 

But you seem to be very familar with what formerly happened (that Gnomegates incident and the stuff was done to the alliance that I'm a member of) so you would prbably be able to tell us players IF that...individual has been "convicted" or if it has "only" been reported. Because your statement sounds as if he has NOT been convicted to me.

 

 

the fact that it happened again is the fault of the police?

 

What do you think whose fault it is if the police catches someone stealing and IF he is indeed convicted by the jurisdiction, but yet they dont arrest him or whatever they could have done to avoid that he will do exactly that again. Whose fault is it then ? Whom would YOU, in this special case, hold responsible ?

 

Edit: And if, for some reason, your justification is, that the laws simply havent been elaborate enough....well then...whose responsibility is that ? and shouldnt tose laws in question have been readjusted accordingly, so that whatever injustice has been happening before cant happen again ?

 

But as we both know THAT certainly will NEVER ever happen, right ?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Galadhel

[Galadhel 92]

That's not the point, you're now taking specifics of the example and comparing them to the situation. My example was solely used to prove how asinine your original comment was:

"If you let someone do something bad and you wo not do anything about it even if you could, then you're as guilty as that very person. Period."

I could have used plenty of other examples to show how wrong the above mindframe is, but I thought that the school shooting one would clearly explain it.

As for the rest of your nonsense comparison: Just like in real life, criminals around here aren't sentenced to death (banned) for minor infractions. Theft is considered a minor infraction on PVE, not something you can be permabanned for immediately. On the other side of things, macroing is a major infraction, which can result in an immediate ban upon first incident, to the offending player and any characters associated with it.

You mention calling the police. The team is the "police". I am willing to bet 100s that Griphyth has filed a /support and that this thread is just a warning for the rest of the playerbase. So, as far as calling the cops, it's been done. I still don't understand how you assessed that I wouldn't call the cops if I saw a bleeding person on the ground, though...

 

 

What i was trying to say in my posting was that "calling the police" would be the appropriate action if you had to deal with someone that would possibly harm your life....as opposed to what you wanted to imply by your analogy.

 

Admittedly I should have added that the measures you have to take against whatever wrongdoing youre supposed to stop have to be within certain (reasonable) limits. But your analogy was so over the top and didnt relate at all to what we're talking about (although i do NOW understand that you chose that analogy as some sort of stylic device <--exaggeration) that it appeared to me that you were conciously misinterpreting what i meant to point out....and obviously I'm still unable to make myself clear (to you)...maybe thats due to me not being perfectly familar with the english language.

 

I dont know if "omission" (*1) is a thing in the USA laws, but it certainly is where I'm coming from, so to me thats a perfect mindset. And it actually makes sense to me.

And if it doesnt make sense to you, then thats the reason for what i assesed.

 

Edit: On a side note....banning doesnt nessecarily mean "sentenced to death" (that punishment isnt part of MY mindset btw) it can also mean "going to jail" either for a certain period of time or even for the rest of your life. Mind you, that punishment isnt applicable for some sort of revenge, but to protect the society (in this particular case the players of Wurm <--Freedom in particular) from such individuals as these AND additionally tothat  teach the subject that what he did was wrong (social rehabilitation)

 

 

(*1) which basically says that IF you could have done something -within reasonable limits- to help or avoid that someone is being harmed and you DONT...whatever is is that you can possibly do, then youve ASSISTED to do whatever crime this is related to and therefore youre as guilty as if youd done it yourself

 

Also looked it up and "omission" indeed is a thing in the US laws...you might want to look it up as well (and again as a side note: i do point this out for the US, not because Wurm falls under the US jurisdiction, but because you are from the US)

Edited May 5, 2015 by Galadhel

[Samusen 532]

LIkewise, and it's why I'm not in any alliances.

 That sounds so lonely

[Hashirama 870]

Its not staff's fault. It's no one's fault but his. Some people said that the players who listened to his apology are at fault. But no, everyone deserves a chance. IF its the same guy, then he blew everything for himself. 
And I know now he will sell it with his main account and say "I could have sold this with an alt" but seriously, its a reverse psychology bull**** .

Although I strongly think, if a person is making alts to steal from people, that highly damages the realtionship and trust among players in the game. Because no one knows if its a new player or some thief's alt that is joining your village. Best thing to do? Track their IP and if they do it , then yes ban their IP.

 

It's a person's fault for not securing his items, yes it is his fault. But if you keep telling him that, he will never trust anyone. Just because someone is making alts to steal from good players, you can't point out the fault in that good player. You simply ban the person doing this. He who steals, makes a bad name. But once no one trusts him, he makes another alt to do it all over again? That just sucks.

 

Thankyou for informing us about this alt named Ant.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Hashirama

[Mordraug 2,542]

What if the police punished that person for the first law breaking and need to gather evidence for subsequent events? the fact that it happened again is the fault of the police?

 

There's also a difference between a theft report and a conviction for law breaking.

 

Way to represent the GM team there.  Guy's already been busted and even took GM directive to return the silver.

 

Some disciplinary action THAT time with full evidence in hand, he was gleefully on the WTS a couple of days later.

 

As for Code Club management... 

 

 

If we're supposed to go on full lockdown, fence our deeds off, and never leave with anything beyond newbie gear.. may as well buy that LiF bundle where I can run my 2x2km server.

[Redd 4,281]

Had good dealings with this person, im sorry to hear this has happened.

[bdew 2,462]

Actually I've got to say, that its NOT Bruhamoffs fault that he did it YET AGAIN. Its the fault of all the persons that have dealt with the past events that sloppy, that it was possible for him to steal again...and YES this goes out to the persons in charge (The Dev Team and the GM Team...but I guess they can't do anything about it that theyre not approved to by their superiors..so take that with some grain of salt) and everybody that has previously defended him ! You are the ones who has to take responsibility for yet another crime ! And if this posting has some kind of consequence for me personally then I can only say, so be it, cause I dont give a damn about it...all this just had to be said by someone finally !

 

Disdainfully Galadhel

 

Nice victim shaming.

[Hordern 2,177]

For the first part of that statement I can only say that english isn't my native tongue and that I often just dont know  the exact terms so i can be absolutely precise in what i WANT to say...so thats probably my fault to some degree.

 

But you seem to be very familar with what formerly happened (that Gnomegates incident and the stuff was done to the alliance that I'm a member of) so you would prbably be able to tell us players IF that...individual has been "convicted" or if it has "only" been reported. Because your statement sounds as if he has NOT been convicted to me.

 

 

What do you think whose fault it is if the police catches someone stealing and IF he is indeed convicted by the jurisdiction, but yet they dont arrest him or whatever they could have done to avoid that he will do exactly that again. Whose fault is it then ? Whom would YOU, in this special case, hold responsible ?

 

Edit: And if, for some reason, your justification is, that the laws simply havent been elaborate enough....well then...whose responsibility is that ? and shouldnt tose laws in question have been readjusted accordingly, so that whatever injustice has been happening before cant happen again ?

 

But as we both know THAT certainly will NEVER ever happen, right ?

For the first part what you said made sense, I was just pointing out that just because someone files a report, doesn't mean that person has done something wrong. As for bringing in the knarr incident etc, you're the one who used police examples before, I wasn't talking about any particular incident in Wurm. Since you bring it up though, yes, I am somewhat familiar with both the cases you refer to - it was me that issued the first warning.

For the latter part, you seem to be assuming that players we catch breaking rules don't get punished. That's an incorrect assumption. Just like RL, punishments escalate with repetition, we don't often start with the maximum penalty, just like a first theft case in RL won't net you life imprisonment. That doesn't stop people being repeat offenders in RL too - THAT is up to the individual involved, NOT the police. The police just have to try and control matters, rehabilitate where possible, and cut out what can't be saved when it's completely clear that's the case.

 

 

 That sounds so lonely

 

It's not so bad, I use IRC chat rooms in game to stay in touch with various groups, and as staff I have a myriad of other concerns to occupy my time. I'm also a hermit in game, so prefer peace and quiet on the whole

 

 

Way to represent the GM team there.  Guy's already been busted and even took GM directive to return the silver.

 

Some disciplinary action THAT time with full evidence in hand, he was gleefully on the WTS a couple of days later.

 

As for Code Club management... 

 

 

If we're supposed to go on full lockdown, fence our deeds off, and never leave with anything beyond newbie gear.. may as well buy that LiF bundle where I can run my 2x2km server.

You're making considerable assumptions about the entirety of punishments dealt out. Incidentally, if someone in RL took something, was then forced to pay for it and served a punishment for the crime; would you say they're not then entitled to sell the item on later? Of course they would, it's theirs legitimately by then and they can post it for sale if they like.

The GM team isn't here to hand out the death sentence to every crime for a first offence. There are very few things we ban for straight off the bat. We first try and get the player to understand the spirit of the game and give them a chance to change and become a valued member of the community. Players who don't learn fast, find they're not welcome pretty fast.

[Wurmhole 3,650]

I for one, would like to see his alts banned and blocked from being sold. Make the punishment be significantly more painful than the crime and maybe it sends the right message.

[Deathly 230]

*My best David Attenborough voice*

 

Here we see the Carebears thrown into a rage over the mention of the word "theft". They will continue in this ritual of fighting and wild accusations for up to a month.

After the initial novelty has worn off they will return to their regular routine, but be keenly listening for the slightest accusation of something upsetting them so they may repeat the ritual again.

 

*End impression*

 

People are gonna pinch stuff no matter how much poop people throw around or how many times they throw blame on the GM team or anyone else. 

You don't want your stuff stolen? good, neither do i. So lock your stuff up and don't throw a tantrum when it gets stolen. Accept that you made a mistake and learn from it.

[Bruhamoff 34]

*My best David Attenborough voice*

 

Here we see the Carebears thrown into a rage over the mention of the word "theft". They will continue in this ritual of fighting and wild accusations for up to a month.

After the initial novelty has worn off they will return to their regular routine, but be keenly listening for the slightest accusation of something upsetting them so they may repeat the ritual again.

 

*End impression*

 

People are gonna pinch stuff no matter how much poop people throw around or how many times they throw blame on the GM team or anyone else. 

You don't want your stuff stolen? good, neither do i. So lock your stuff up and don't throw a tantrum when it gets stolen. Accept that you made a mistake and learn from it.

 

This. This made me LoL. 

 

Also, to the OP, why was my name brought up?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Bruhamoff

[Thorakkanath 444]

I for one, would like to see his alts banned and blocked from being sold. Make the punishment be significantly more painful than the crime and maybe it sends the right message.

 

We need to be very careful here, the option to name and shame is great, fantastic even BUT from that to being the inquisition and becoming over zealous is nothing but a fine line...

 

I agree that the punishments need to be increased, but I also agree that MECHANISMS need to be put in place to disallow certain theft possibilities on PvE and not RULES.

 

Because rules can be bent, forced, even broken - and if you don't get caught (due to the GM's lack of resources or ineffective logging system) you are safe but MAYBE get a reputation hit and need to make an alt to trade your stuff.

 

A mechanism cannot be bent, forced or broken, if it is coded correctly, means it will take developer resources to create, test and implement - but in the long run the staff will have with far less drama to deal with (i.e. used resources) and the PvE player base will become happier and less paranoid - will even trade more (because let's face it, it is nice to see who not to deal with, but at the same time you need to cover your rear for every single possibility that the devious mind of a thief can come up with, which it isn't easy in Wurm as wogic is involved - in the end you might just quit trading alltogether)

 

 

PS. I know not everything can be coded into mechanisms, but please...do try to implement some (of course while keeping the spirit of being a sandbox alive etc etc)

Edited May 5, 2015 by Thorakkanath

[bdew 2,462]

And posts on the subject start vanishing again without notice. GG forum mods.

[Leroy 315]

One thing. I fell in love with this game because of its theft viewpoint. Theft happens, you leave your car unlocked and your stereo is stolen, the wurm cops tell you tuff break and to lock your car from now on. I can't think of another game that is as self responsible as that.

Usually these posts go towards the "your fault for not securing your stuff" but now it seems the opinion is "call a gm to have stuff given back".

I have had stuff stolen. My first cart full of my first tools and horses taken in first month of the game. I was pissed at first then started to laugh because wurm is different, this game is almost designed to see if you survive getting screwed over in life and carry on. Being able to take stuff is part of what makes wurm... wurm.

That said IF your stuff was set properly with permissions and locked then some exploit was used and a gm should investigate and the bug fixed. Otherwise enjoy the drama and carry on with a mischevious grin?

[rixk 830]

One thing. I fell in love with this game because of its theft viewpoint. Theft happens, you leave your car unlocked and your stereo is stolen, the wurm cops tell you tuff break and to lock your car from now on. I can't think of another game that is as self responsible as that.

Usually these posts go towards the "your fault for not securing your stuff" but now it seems the opinion is "call a gm to have stuff given back".

I have had stuff stolen. My first cart full of my first tools and horses taken in first month of the game. I was pissed at first then started to laugh because wurm is different, this game is almost designed to see if you survive getting screwed over in life and carry on. Being able to take stuff is part of what makes wurm... wurm.

That said IF your stuff was set properly with permissions and locked then some exploit was used and a gm should investigate and the bug fixed. Otherwise enjoy the drama and carry on with a mischevious grin?

In current state it isn't possible. I have said it before and will say again: Until the community is able to police themselves, it is the duty of the staff to do so. On PvP servers it isn't a problem as the thief can be hunted down by the victims(or victims friends), which means thievery has(can have) consequences. On freedom on the other hand someone can steal stuff even infront of your eyes, but you can't do anything to stop him(up until recently we couldn't even name the thieves names in public), means zero consequence, when GMs don't step in.

[chademaster 33]

A hypothetical situation: You are walking around in a forest, just wandering around not following any specific trail. You find a small brown envelope and inside is 10000 Euros. Legally you need to put in 'reasonable effort' to find the owner of the money before you claim it for yourself. But how is it enforceable? 

[Kyrmius 188]

A hypothetical situation: You are walking around in a forest, just wandering around not following any specific trail. You find a small brown envelope and inside is 10000 Euros. Legally you need to put in 'reasonable effort' to find the owner of the money before you claim it for yourself. But how is it enforceable? 

 

It's not about enforcement. It's about choosing to do the right thing when faced with a choice to either be selfish or selfless. It's about personal responsibility and integrity.... doing the right thing even when others are not watching.

[jacksonruby 8]

gonna call ant out on global when i see him this is disreputable to us newbies. i joined about 12-13 days ago on wurm. the alliance i was in with suddenly yesterday went sour for a random reason. so i moved to a new village and new alliance right below the old one. trying to fugre out why they didnt like me and a few others askign so many questions/doign our buisness. i come on and read this and now i fully understamd.

 

other people are stealing and reigniting fears thus making life on us noobs harder

[irobotnik8 81]

I would not agree that it has never not been this way, I recall many instances in the past (2011 to be exact) where GMs were brought in to track down players who may have wrongly taken an item or two, I remember calling down someone many years ago after a ton of my items disappeared from my house that I was in the process of constructing, GM tracked the player down and the player gave the items back, was instructed to lock my items up in a chest and that was that.

 

Though I agree theft is a bit of a weird thing on Wurm, definitely a vague term amonst the community where as one side will agree that its "nobodies fault, you should've secured your items", while others question the morals of others and deem the situation worthy enough for a support ticket.

 

I don't think it was until the Jimmybrasher incident that people had started noticing GMs getting involved, that or the Bruhamoff incident (The Jimmybrasher one makes sense though as the items were wrongly acquired through permission exploits).

 

 

 

 

Is this why griefing is against the rules?

Griefing is technically against the rules but the definition is so specific and the enforcement so lax that it hardly matters.

[Corwen 164]

FFS people! Lock your wagons, gates, doors and don't add friends that are not friends!

This game has PLENTY of permission settings to guard against this from happening,, I find it funny how some feel its the GM's or even Rolfs fault.

[hoof2000 278]

Hello Kyrmius, hows going? can you shoot me a pm, tried to contact you but i cannot... so i hope you will read this.

[Ulviirala 431]

Whether or not it's in a game, whether or not it's against "the game rules", whether or not it's off-deed, whether or not it's locked up, if you go take something that is not yours and clearly belongs to someone else, morally... it's stealing. Doing so with full intent is just another level on top of that.

All that arguing about Wurm being a sandbox, or securing your stuff better, is just a pile of bullsh in my opinion.

[Macadelic 199]

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to realize that they must lock up their things, use correct perms, and keep their circle tight. How many incidents of this nature will have to occur before that light bulb fires up?

 

Don't get me wrong, I do not condone this type of behavior by any means, but the bottom line is, it can be prevented with just a little thought and effort. 

[Ulviirala 431]

Although, going off on a tangent slightly or maybe not, a point about locks and society, virtual or real: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQx6Kg0ELuY

Food for thought.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Ulviirala

[Mordraug 2,542]

So we got locks, no real laws, no option to go take our stuff back, and definitely no retaliation option.

 

And definitely won't be seeing tens of thousands at this rate.

 

Sounds like a shitty deal if you ask me.