My Apology to the Community

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

Here's what works for me personally:  I've found in life, few will attempt to own their errors.  Apologizing is a step towards the right direction.  We are all prone to error and would want forgiveness as well.  I do accept peoples apologies as it recognizes at some level their wrong done unto another.  This does not mean i'd forget or still not have caution.  I have had a few do wrong to me in this game yet I chose to be accepting with a sense of forgiveness.  It's my way to stay happy in the game, not carry bitterness or grudges yet to instead celebrate and embrace the community with positive energy.  I think how you handle others that want to be a problem is more reflective of you than them and never let someone of ill character rent space in your head or be part of your character.

[RockyBalboa 565]

I still think perm. Ban will stop all drama

[Marshlander 188]

I seriously doubt being caught and made to pay back the silver was his 'life altering event' that caused him to rethink his ways.

 

If I was him, I'd have just laughed in all of your faces and would be busy plotting how to manipulate you further. Forgiving fluffybunnies are so easy to manipulate. He sees you as weak and pathetic. I know I would have 30 years ago. I'd do what it took to 'redeem' myself, get invited to one of your deeds as a village, gain your trust for another 6 months, and the entire time be plotting to gank the silverware when you weren't looking...

 

I have a lot of problems with you spinning your stories and exactly interpreting the perpetrator's mind. You jump to a lot of conclusions just based on your personal backstory. I say this while agreeing with you on not trusting him, and having posted to support Gnomegates in his pursuit of GM fairness in one of the other threads, and while having never had contact with Bruhamoff in or out of game.

 

In this game, a wrong choice is basically just a click away. It is not the same as punching people in the face IRL, or harrassing or bullying them face-to-face. Most fantasy MMOs revolve around looting and murder, you take what loot you can get - it's your reward. Wurm is different in that people's property is actually persistent, available to be stolen or misappropriated, and nothing drops out of thin air (or a loot table, well, except for unique drops) but has to be player-created. And still even on Freedom it's a competitive market environment, land-grabbing, selling and reselling at a higher price, etc. People use what resources they can get to their advantage. But generally, a lot of people play computer games for challenge and competition, and use whatever means available to them to do so. There's a discovery process "oh I can do that and beat the game this way" involved in many games. I guess this type of thinking carries over into Wurm for some people, and they have a hard time getting into the Wurm community because of it.

 

I have come across situations where I was tempted myself - an unsecured mine with a rare anvil lying about. There was the itch of opportunity for a moment, the thinking of how I'd transport it etc, before the thinking kicked in that this belonged to another player I hadn't met before (and who just opened in a mine in my vicinity without me noticing before). Of course I could resist knowing this belonged to someone, but the moment of felt opportunity was undeniable.

 

I'm not defending Bruhamoff's actions in any way - they are wrong and he has no way of denying knowledge of the consequences for the other players involved - but the decision from what I can surmise was done in a moment where he saw he could pick up his coins again out of the container. I know you have blamed him for having plotting this all along (in quite some long posts) but I simply see no proof of that during the course of the conversation posted in the other thread and I think you are going out of your way and into drama land by doing so. What I do think I see (if I have to even go on and try judge his character to compare to your stories) is an inclination of Bruhamoff's to give in to this kind of competitive mindset I have outlined above in apparently several cases, and a failure to empathize with the loss of the other player involved. I'm reducing my assumptions to the minimum proof I see in the facts stated, not even to give him the benefit of doubt. But I'm also not spinning this into assumptions about the wider RL moral character of the player behind the keyboard. Because people play games partly for competition, and empathy over the internet is a more indirect thing than when we deal with other people directly.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Marshlander

[akaedis 429]

I still think perm. Ban will stop all drama

 

if people continue to harass bruha, would not be surprised if the harassers got banned/muted permanently and made more drama.

 

A ban on bruha would be absurd, Otherwise i want a ban on all the people who attack bruha since they are equally guilty in terms of crime here. 

[Oldwolf 17]

 

 Otherwise i want a ban on all the people who attack bruha. 

 

 

I would bet money that you are.

[RockyBalboa 565]

if people continue to harass bruha, would not be surprised if the harassers got banned/muted permanently and made more drama.

 

A ban on bruha would be absurd, Otherwise i want a ban on all the people who attack bruha since they are equally guilty in terms of crime here. 

well now you sound like you are one of players who support all that drama and scam and keep it going... that is wrong... mybe even you will need to get ban.  

 

but we are not here for that right?   lets delete this stupid topic and move on... he will make new account and all will be history.   

 

 

and if is harassment what i says as statement  then everyone writing in this forum need to get ban...

 

 

 

in 90% of cases player normaly get ban for scam, not paying services,,,,

Edited April 15, 2015 by RockyBalboa

[akaedis 429]

well now you sound like you are one of players who support all that drama and scam and keep it going... that is wrong... mybe even you will need to get ban.  

 

but we are not here for that right?   lets delete this stupid topic and move on... he will make new account and all will be history.   

 

and if is harassment what i says as statement  then everyone writing in this forum need to get ban...

 

in 90% of cases player normaly get ban for scam, not paying services,,,,

 

I honestly don't care what bruha did, A scam is a scam. Its not my issue. However, If theirs a person being harassed, Then ill make it my issue. The worst kind of person on this planet, Is a harasser. Worse then a guy who beat an elderly person back in 1985 or some incident decades ago. Why? Probably thinking im insane or broke upstairs eh? Well if you've ever been harassed intensively, You would understand my stance, Its not easy to explain. Best i can say is it leaves you like a broken record.

 

Don't misconstrued my words, i do not support bruhas, Or anyones stances here, But i will defend bruha if people insist on harassing him, And i will continue to report harassment on these forums. If the harassers get banned, Its their own fault, Not mine or bruha's. 

 

I don't want this drama to continue, so iv been reporting certain posts non stop, You know those posts about people saying their posts disappeared, one of the reports on that post was probably me, And im glad i reported them, and i will gladly do it again. Harassment is harassment, I don't care who's side your on, Im on no side here, If you or others insist on harassing bruha or anyone for that matter, ill report the post.

 

I would love for this god damn drama to end, But people like belrindor don't want it to, People like him like to start shi# on this forum, Creating these issues. Thankfully Enki, Shrimp and the other leaders are all evaluating the situation and will deal with it when they reach a resolution.

If you haven't noticed btw, Most CA & GM (Not forum mods tho) talks on this has mostly ceased from public discussion on these matters, Sooner or later theirs gonna be a post from one of them ending this all. I wouldn't be surprised if some people got permanently muted/heavy warnings over this stupid fiasco. 

[princesszelda 23]

yeah you better be sorry mate.

[Sharkin 1,319]

Everyone screw up sometime, what matters is if you learn from it. Mistakes do not define you, they tell you who you're not.

[Wargasm 1,927]

 

I would love for this god damn drama to end, But people like belrindor don't want it to, People like him like to start shi# on this forum, Creating these issues. Thankfully Enki, Shrimp and the other leaders are all evaluating the situation and will deal with it when they reach a resolution.

If you haven't noticed btw, Most CA & GM (Not forum mods tho) talks on this has mostly ceased from public discussion on these matters, Sooner or later theirs gonna be a post from one of them ending this all. I wouldn't be surprised if some people got permanently muted/heavy warnings over this stupid fiasco.

 

 

You make it sound like it's everyone's fault BUT Bruhamoff's that this incident made it to the forums in the first place.  You choose to forget that all of these posts of "harassment" that you refer to could have all been avoided had one more thief decided not to take advantage of a foolish seller. 

 

You cannot blame the effect for the cause.

[FreeTineen 430]

Beee gooodd.

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXepuvLu9ek

[Viti 400]

Just a friendly reminder for everyone.

 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Viti

[akaedis 429]

You make it sound like it's everyone's fault BUT Bruhamoff's that this incident made it to the forums in the first place.  You choose to forget that all of these posts of "harassment" that you refer to could have all been avoided had one more thief decided not to take advantage of a foolish seller. 

 

You cannot blame the effect for the cause.

 

Ofcourse it all could have been avoided, Thats quite obvious. However, It happened, He repented, And apologized multiple times. Thats far more then enough to put an end to this, If you don't think so, Then your just blood thirsty & a drama maker. If you insist on harassing him, ill just keep reporting the posts for harassment. I don't care if its ying or yang, If theirs harassers in ying, or yang, ill report it. 

 

Regarding blame, I can blame the effect, Because its very simple, One can accept his apology and move on, Like any normal person would, Or they can take it to the next step and create 4 different threads based around this person, Approaching from multiple angles, Then go in-game and harass him their as-well, Effectively making this whole fiasco. Sadly, This person didn't do what a normal person would, They blew it out of per-portion and made a big deal out of a little incident that has gotten everyone fired up. Which will probably at this rate, kill this community if its not stopped soon. The effect will, Not the cause. 

 

Don't forget wargasm, i can blame you guys for the very same reason, your the cause of this effect/aftermath. So their isn't any fine lining anywhere here. And you are free to blame me all you want, im just here to report the harassment and attempt to stop the harassment, As small as my attempts may be, if i can stop even one(which i have), im happy. Gotta love double bladed swords eh? Works both ways.

[Galadhel 92]

He repented, And apologized multiple times.

 

[Wargasm 1,927]

Sure.  Blame me.

 

I'm the reason Bruhamoff stole.

I'm the reason the GM's chose to intervene on the victim's behalf.

I'm the reason Bruhamoff got "caught".

I'm the one who cried that I was going to quit the game if this wasn't resolved in my favor.

 

No, it doesn't work both ways.  I had nothing to do with the incident, and his actions, his public image, nor the public's opinion of him are not my fault.

[Tazinsky 93]

 

akaedis

The worst kind of person on this planet, Is a harasser. Worse then a guy who beat an elderly person back in 1985 or some incident decades ago.

[KanePT 699]

In real life, people commit crimes against others, get caught and then must serve time, or pay a hefty penalty (or both), depending on the severity of the crime.  Stealing long ships from vikings is pretty much resolved with all out war (keeping in RP a bit here), but while apologies are a good step forward, I think a lot of folks will not easily forget your name and certainly not trust you to do a trade with them.

 

If I were in your shoes, I'd honestly just start a new alt and put this one on ice for a few months.  Out of sight, out of mind.  Build a trustworthy rep on your alt and when you do revive your main, you have the alt's reputation to fall back on for representation of honest trading.

 

Some of my early MMOs, I treated other players are mere pixels that were there to take advantage of, like any single player RPG I'd played in the past. I'd actually ended up really doing emotional damage to someone once and it completely changed my perspective on what is really "real".  Game assets are as real as the digital currency in your bank. Digital emotions and relationships are as real as many face to face relationships. Losing the illusion of "pixels don't matter" is an important step in online gaming and in my opinion, makes the immersion so enjoyable. Building trusting relationships, sharing the load on massive projects, coming to the aid of struggling players... well, you just can't beat that feeling in a game.

 

Anyway... climbing off my soap box... getting a "reboot" might be the best thing for you, to quickly put the past in the past.

Edited April 15, 2015 by KanePT

[Uberknot 327]

It would not have been so bad if not for all the drama during the event.......boasting, smack talking, etc....that all just added to the peoples irritation over the matter.  Which is why some people don't trust even an open admission of guilt.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Uberknot

[akaedis 429]

I'm sorry that I have to use this term, but STOP TALKING ###### !

Please ! Really!

 

First of all, he has only apologized ONCE, not multiple times !

I'm NOT saying that once isnt worth anything, but "Multiple times" is JUST NOT TRUE

 

Secondly, he did "only" apologize for what he did to Gnomegate.

As I have already previously stated that was a good start. But since then he has NOT apologized for any of his other previous wrongdoings, nor has he tried to repair the damage he has done prior to the incident with Gnomegate. Thats not what somebody would do who "repented". Thats what somebody would do, because he was caught.

 

So please stop to spread these obviously WRONG statements, as you either do not know what youre talking about or you're blatantly lying ( I dont want to judge whether one or the other is true )

 

Soo your just gonna ignore everything bruha said in GL & Kingdom chat, and what he said to gnome, the GM's who handled this, and this very thread.

 

Mk

[Aeszhara 29]

Soo your just gonna ignore everything bruha said in GL & Kingdom chat, and what he said to gnome, the GM's who handled this, and this very thread.

 

Mk

 

Let me just say something about this one Akaedis....

 

As both Galadhel and me are previous victims of Bruhamoff.... I can certainly understand why Galadhel is reacting like this. He has every right to do so as the GM's gave Bruhamoff his first warning back then due to what he'd done to us and our alliance. 

 

We never got the larger bulk of our items back. We were told by the GM's that they'd warn him not to do it again but that'd be the only thing they could / wanted to do.

 

I personally have given up on the feud with Bruhamoff due to the multiple threats made towards me for talking about it and throwing out our past grievances with him. 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

So in short:

 

- This is the 2nd warning Bruhamoff has managed to get away with.

 

- I personally can't be arsed to continue the fued due to mute / ban threats for ridicilous reasons

 

( Defending a GM's decision... really? I get a mute warning for that? )

 

- And last but not least, I've wasted too much energy on this and it's only brought damage to my own reputation.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Aeszhara

[akaedis 429]

Let me just say something about this one Akaedis....

 

As both Galadhel and me are previous victims of Bruhamoff.... I can certainly understand why Galadhel is reacting like this. He has every right to do so as the GM's gave Bruhamoff his first warning back then due to what he'd done to us and our alliance. 

 

We never got the larger bulk of our items back. We were told by the GM's that they'd warn him not to do it again but that'd be the only thing they could / wanted to do.

 

I personally have given up on the feud with Bruhamoff due to the multiple threats made towards me for talking about it and throwing out our past grievances with him. 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

So in short:

 

- This is the 2nd warning Bruhamoff has managed to get away with.

 

- I personally can't be arsed to continue the fued due to mute / ban threats for ridicilous reasons

 

( Defending a GM's decision... really? I get a mute warning for that? )

 

- And last but not least, I've wasted too much energy on this and it's only brought damage to my own reputation.

 

Well heres the catch about these warnings, Hes breaking no rules. 

Feel free to look over the game rules, and look for a rule that will get him banned for his actions.

You could try wurm online rule C), But a warning is a warning, not a directive order & its only temporary.  So it in itself cancels out after 24 hours really

 

Im glad you've given up with the fued, Not to be rude, don't mis understand just yet, Im glad that you've taken a step forward to Forgive And Forget, Or atleast forget. It would be nice if you'd forgive but hey, to one their own on that. Your not going after him like a shark, I fully understand being vocal about your past experience with bruha, However, Going after him is not the way to go about it. 

 

Regarding getting threats, I am unsure who is threatening you, But whoever it is, Stop. If they continue, i highly recommend reporting them, If it gets worse, contact a forum mod directly, If its horrible, Contact the lead forum mod.

 

Your reputation, Well i don't think many people will judge you for saying "Hey, Bruha stole from my alliance back in the day, just wanted to let you know that". But if you go after him, Well its only gonna have a backwards effect.  Tho if your interested in a little advice, regarding reputation, I recommend seeking a good reputation among friends, Not among strangers on a forum. Its a lot easier & more rewarding

[Karys 77]

Soo your just gonna ignore everything bruha said in GL & Kingdom chat, and what he said to gnome, the GM's who handled this, and this very thread.

 

Mk

 

One could ask you the same thing:  are you going to ignore everything Bruhamoff has said himself?  I've seen much of what he has said both on these forums and in GL chat, and frankly his post at the start of this thread is in stark contrast to all of his previous comments.  The weight of his own words in public statements stands against him, with this post as the sole exception to his expression of attitude.  

 

Are you going to ignore the statements of the GMs who handled this?  Because a few of them had some choice words for Bruhamoff in the previous threads when he attempted to distort the truth of what transpired.

 

From my perspective, if anyone is ignoring what has been said, it is those who continue to defend Bruhamoff and his actions in spite of all the evidence before them.  By all means we should definitely take his public apology into consideration, but it should be considered in light of all his other public statements as well, and weighed accordingly.  In the end, only his future actions will tell which words were sincere.  For now, it doesn't look good; the truly remorseful would have sought to return the silver before being coerced to do so by authority.  According to Gnomegates, Bruhamoff had been given just such an opportunity and turned it down.  But a change of heart is possible, and time will tell.

 

That is an important point to remember about the repayment however; at no time during any of this has Bruhamoff received any punishment for his actions; he was only made to complete the original transaction.  He received a temporary ban for investigation, not a punitive ban for his actions.  He lost no game time, and no assets other than what he had originally agreed to pay.  The real world equivalent here would be for someone to steal five automobiles, and when found out, only being made to involuntarily repay the value of those cars.  He still keeps the vehicles, he faces no prosecution or punishment for committing grand theft auto, no debt to society has been paid, he openly gloated about his actions and success, yet we are asked to restore full faith and trust in his goodness based solely upon an apology worthy of a ten-year old who has been caught swiping a couple of candy bars from the supermarket.  An apology which was only issued after he spent some time finding it difficult to unload the cars as few were willing to do business with him after the publication of all that had transpired.  Some may be willing to accept his apology at face value, but you will pardon me if I wait and see before considering placing any level of trust in someone who has acted in such a manner.  Call me cynical if you will, but in my book trust is earned by actions, not words, and once lost it can be near impossible to regain.

 

If Bruhamoff is truly penitent, then that is good for him and I hope his conscience is eased.  He may yet prove to be a reliable individual and a good influence for the community.  However that does not absolve him of the consequences of his actions, and such actions do have repercussions.  Personally, i tend to choose carefully who I do business with, and I will strive to first reward those who have always chosen to be honest in their dealings, rather than take my business to those who have done otherwise and then claim reformation.  I feel that the first is more deserving, and should not be punished by losing business to the latter simply because the latter has gained attention and publicity.

[Yamuliss 105]

Withdrawn from this topic.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Yamuliss

[Aeszhara 29]

Regarding getting threats, I am unsure who is threatening you, But whoever it is, Stop. If they continue, i highly recommend reporting them, If it gets worse, contact a forum mod directly, If its horrible, Contact the lead forum mod.

 

There's no point in contacting the staff about these threats. T'was a mix of player threats and staff threats that made absolutely no sense.

 

 

 

 

Your reputation, Well i don't think many people will judge you for saying "Hey, Bruha stole from my alliance back in the day, just wanted to let you know that". But if you go after him, Well its only gonna have a backwards effect.  Tho if your interested in a little advice, regarding reputation, I recommend seeking a good reputation among friends, Not among strangers on a forum. Its a lot easier & more rewarding

 

T'was not solely the fact of " Hey, Bruha stole from our alliance back in the day, Just wanted to let you know that "....... I saw alot of mis-information being spread around by serveral people and was simply aiming to prevent from wild rumors and false accusations being brought up. 

 

People were throwing random claims and stories around about the situation, but when asked they'd admit never even having spoken to Bruhamoff or Gnomegates himself but claimed " they had reliable sources or heard about it in Kchat " 

 

Bruhamoff himself also started twisting the confusion to his own benefits. That's why i went after him somewhat hard. I saw what was happening yet again. And i was trying to prevent that from happening a second time. At this point after seeing so much.. frustrating bias .... I'd be highly surprised if anyone even agrees with me on my reason to go after Bruhamoff. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I did read a bit of the rules over again in the mean time. 

 

I personally value this part:

 

 

Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others

 

Now.... then again we as a community hold now power over rules whatsoever and we are dependat on the whims of the staff on grey areas like this.

 

But here's the fun part:

 

The GM who handled our situation with Bruhamoff told us that:

 

" If anything like this happens again. Make a ticket. When he repeatedly does this only then can we really see if we can do anything about it " 

 

I have chat logs of this. I know the name of the GM who said this. 

 

And there's absolutely 0% chance i can get the permission to post the chat logs. And the second i do without they'll be deleted. And me probaly banned for a while from the forums hehe. 

 

I'm curious to see how you think of my reasoning to go after Bruhamoff now. Or at least a bit of an understanding of my dissapointment.

[Karys 77]

Your all forgetting it wasn't theft, A bad business arrangement between the two is not theft! Look it up! He kept the coin and the ships and never gave it back that would be considered theft! People have disagreements, gms get called in they do what they are suppose to do and  then the problem is considered solved and then is suppose to be dropped.

 

You have an interesting understanding of crime if you really think there was no theft.  When both the boats and the coins were taken, that was definitely theft.  When Bruhamoff was forced to return the coins by GMs, it did not erase the fact that a theft had occurred.

 

If, after taking the boats and the coins, Bruhamoff of his own accord had contacted Gnomegates and said, "hey, I accidentally picked up the coins before I left the other day, here you go, sorry about that!" and had given back the coins, then it could be seen as something of an honest mistake and not theft.  But when Gnomegates pointed out to Bruhamoff that Bruhamoff had in his possession both the ships and the coins, and Bruhamoff still refused to repay Gnomegates, then it was clearly a theft.  Authorities stepping in and making Bruhamoff pay for the ships does not change the nature of the original action, and it remains a theft.

 

For example, in real life, what if someone were to steal a valuable object. If later they were apprehended and the object confiscated by the police and returned to the rightful owner, it would not erase the fact that the object had been stolen to begin with.  The thief would still face charges, be tried, and if found guilty he would serve time in prison.  Why?  Because it was a theft, regardless of the fact that the object was recovered.

 

Bruhamoff did not "give" anything back, despite being given the opportunity to do so.  In the end, he was made to return the coins, which is a significant distinction.  Owning up to a mistake and trying to fix it yourself goes a lot further than denying it, getting caught, and then being forced to make reparations for it.