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Toecutter

Name and shame?

105 posts in this topic

Earlier on GL a known thief his case was handled by GM's and he was supposedly ordered to return  the Victims silver coins, was selling  x5 items and someone stated he is a thief and after several  minutes of people joining in calling him a thief including myself  we were warned  by a GM to stop it?


 


I thought  there was no rules against naming and shaming and someone once said :your reputation is yours to do with"


 


So what is it ,you are not allowed to name and shame a known thief  and your reputation is not yours to do with ?


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Hey Toecutter,


 


If this is the case concerning me, I wanted to correct something you said......The Thief was NOT forced to return my silvers, the GM's gave me the option of my knarrs or silvers returned, then the GM"s returned the silvers. The thief had nothing to do with the returning of the stolen property. As far as rest of the name and shame, I'm not sure if it is only forum post that are allowed, or if in game as well.


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Warning the community about a known thief is good. Making a scene about something that has already been resolved is not in my eyes. I am assuming we all know what you are talking about, and I think that it was good to receive a warning but the people giving the warning were simply going a bit too far. 


 


People who steal make a mistake. Their reputation will suffer from it, and they will suffer the consequences. When the matter has been resolved, it is in my eyes better to give them a chance to prove themselves, instead of taking their fun in this game by harassing them until they quit the game.


 


No offense to anyone, this is just my opinion.


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Toecutter -- the problem isn't with name and shame, it's that for several days anytime the person posts about selling there are people in GL who go on about for long periods of time. You can name and shame, but a few comments, or link the forum post for people to read. 


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Had to refresh my memory

 

Here's the relevant post: 

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/117723-your-reputation/

 

That post is in the GM Hall and was made by the Head GM. Here is a part I found particularly relevant to this case.

 

(snip)

 

Your reputation is valuable.  Your reputation is your responsibility.  Your reputation is your own!

We will not protect you from your own actions.  If you cross someone and they have something negative to say about you, then you earned it on your own merit.  It is in your hands to protect, preserve, improve, defend, or destroy your reputation.

The main thing we will not tolerate is racism, sexism and the ilk.

So take this message to heart and remember that you alone control your reputation.  We can not and will not protect you from the social elements.

 

(end snip)

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Well there is a fine line between wanting to protect others and bulling the person you are warning everyone about so it seems the GM thought the topic crossed that threshold.  (i keep all chats but local off so i did not see the discussion) 


Edited by Kegan
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Warning the community about a known thief is good. Making a scene about something that has already been resolved is not in my eyes. I am assuming we all know what you are talking about, and I think that it was good to receive a warning but the people giving the warning were simply going a bit too far. 

 

People who steal make a mistake. Their reputation will suffer from it, and they will suffer the consequences. When the matter has been resolved, it is in my eyes better to give them a chance to prove themselves, instead of taking their fun in this game by harassing them until they quit the game.

 

No offense to anyone, this is just my opinion.

How many  thieves have you know to leave the game?

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Toecutter -- the problem isn't with name and shame, it's that for several days anytime the person posts about selling there are people in GL who go on about for long periods of time. You can name and shame, but a few comments, or link the forum post for people to read. 

So you can say "(name) is a thief" in chat  and leave it at that ?

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I do agree that there is a line that can be crossed. You can name and shame, you can point out what someone did, but you have to be careful not to cross the line to harassment as well. Now I'm not defending the thief in this case, as I will continue to warn people about him, but there is warning and moving on and letting people make their own decisions and then there is beating a dead horse I guess. If this makes sense.


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Well there is a fine line between wanting to protect others and bulling the person you are warning everyone about so it seems the GM thought the topic crossed that threshold.  (i keep all chats but local off so i did not see the discussion) 

[06:10:25] <GM> this is everyones only warning on trying to derail (thief)  want to sell topic i suggest you pm each other with your concerns

 

How Efficient!

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So you can say "(name) is a thief" in chat  and leave it at that ?

 

 

I'm just suggesting that it would be better to keep it short. The long drawn-out comment periods are annoying other players, and sometimes they become personal attacks which are against chat rules.

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I'm just suggesting that it would be better to keep it short. The long drawn-out comment periods are annoying other players, and sometimes they become personal attacks which are against chat rules.

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I do agree that there is a line that can be crossed. You can name and shame, you can point out what someone did, but you have to be careful not to cross the line to harassment as well. Now I'm not defending the thief in this case, as I will continue to warn people about him, but there is warning and moving on and letting people make their own decisions and then there is beating a dead horse I guess. If this makes sense.

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So I saw some of the talk in GL, not sure how long it had been going on for but I CAN tell you the GM in question had a chilling effect on people saying not much more than KNOWN THIEF that I saw, the GM in question also deleted posts to that effect on the forums and has declined to answer a pm from me concerning why he is threatening people with a 24 hour mute for naming and shaming.


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I have to disagree with this. Harassment is allowed in the game, costly and nasty destruction, and threats and endless bullying. How can it be that behavior like that is fine, but pointing out theft, for example, is not? Until serial harassment and bullying is stopped in the game, I think threads pointing out theft should be allowed to go on for months, as the in-game harassment is allowed to continue.

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I have two problems regarding why I don't agree what you people are doing to this 'known thief'.


 


a) It is incredibly annoying to us people who are tired of seeing these warnings everytime he writes a message in the global chat.


 


B) This behaviour, if enabled, can cause people to leave the game.  Take a look at this example scenario:


 


New player joins the game, walks around a bit, and stumbles upon a deed.  Being new, they accidentally take some items.  Now this player is named and shamed on the forums, KOS'd by a lot of people who see the thread, and has a lot of the community actively trying to alienate them from the rest of the community.  Player leaves, and will likely never come back, having seen how toxic and hostile this community is.


 


I have seen people quick to point fingers and permanently damage a reputation if they can, I have never seen one of these accusers go back to correct and apologize for their actions if they were wrong.


 


Afaik the GM's intervened in this boat incident and it has been resolved, this 'never forgive, never forget' policy some of you people have will continue to add drama and hostility to the forums and in-game, this should not be tolerated.

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Sometimes a person doesn't need to "drawn out long comments", a referrence is enough to relight the fire.


 


So far, since the "incident", bashing the player became a habit, more than a warning to others.


I'm pretty much sure everyone knows who he is and what he did, but there's a fine line between "naming and shaming" and harrasment.


 


I do not defend thieves, I do not agree with what he did, nor do I want to do any business with him, but at some point we have to carry on with our own "business". Bashing him is getting old, is getting tiring, and crosses all the lines.


 


Would expect him to have common sense and stay away from the chat and advertising sales for a while, but if he doesn't have that common sense, /snipe him in chat, if you like, do not invite him to your parties, KoS him on your deeds, there are many options, just stop the witch hunt already, such a toxicity doesn't do any good to anyone.


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I have to disagree with this. Harassment is allowed in the game, costly and nasty destruction, and threats and endless bullying. How can it be that behavior like that is fine, but pointing out theft, for example, is not? Until serial harassment and bullying is stopped in the game, I think threads pointing out theft should be allowed to go on for months, as the in-game harassment is allowed to continue.

Yeah i agree strongly with this and it is the major reason why people do name and shame,i have also been  griefed and had things stolen long ago i hate thieves and griefers and i always will.

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I have to ask HarryJPotter, how is turning up the fire on a person who if now known to have got goods through theft for what has it even been a week yet 'never forgive, never forget.'  If they are making money in game to pay for game time to steal more from people, why wouldn't I want to see them hit in their pocketbook?


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I have two problems regarding why I don't agree what you people are doing to this 'known thief'.

 

a) It is incredibly annoying to us people who are tired of seeing these warnings everytime he writes a message in the global chat.

 

B) This behaviour, if enabled, can cause people to leave the game.  Take a look at this example scenario:

 

New player joins the game, walks around a bit, and stumbles upon a deed.  Being new, they accidentally take some items.  Now this player is named and shamed on the forums, KOS'd by a lot of people who see the thread, and has a lot of the community actively trying to alienate them from the rest of the community.  Player leaves, and will likely never come back, having seen how toxic and hostile this community is.

 

I have seen people quick to point fingers and permanently damage a reputation if they can, I have never seen one of these accusers go back to correct and apologize for their actions if they were wrong.

 

Afaik the GM's intervened in this boat incident and it has been resolved, this 'never forgive, never forget' policy some of you people have will continue to add drama and hostility to the forums and in-game, this should not be tolerated.

Your Scenario really is not valid, as if it gets to the point that he is being named and shamed, I hope that there is more then a "accidental" issue. If that player shows an attitude of not caring that they took other peoples stuff, if they have the attitude that they can do what they want and have no concern for the community, then good ridden to them. But if it is truly a simple mistake, and they do the right thing, then it should never get to the name and shame point.

 

In my case, the scumbag thief had the chance to give me back the silvers. I gave him that chance in game before I came here to the forums, HE refused to make things right, so I had no other options. I gave him every way out and to make things right, he refused. Had he done that, I would never had made the post I did, his rep would be intact and life would go on, but HE made a decision to not make things right. If a noob player does something and refuses to make it right after it being pointed out that what he did was wrong, then yes, run him out of the game, because the game is full enough of people that are scumbags.

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Sometimes a person doesn't need to "drawn out long comments", a referrence is enough to relight the fire.

 

So far, since the "incident", bashing the player became a habit, more than a warning to others.

I'm pretty much sure everyone knows who he is and what he did, but there's a fine line between "naming and shaming" and harrasment.

 

I do not defend thieves, I do not agree with what he did, nor do I want to do any business with him, but at some point we have to carry on with our own "business". Bashing him is getting old, is getting tiring, and crosses all the lines.

 

Would expect him to have common sense and stay away from the chat and advertising sales for a while, but if he doesn't have that common sense, /snipe him in chat, if you like, do not invite him to your parties, KoS him on your deeds, there are many options, just stop the witch hunt already, such a toxicity doesn't do any good to anyone.

Please don't use the term  "bashing" with me i never have i just name  him a thief in a few words and i will continue to do that because those are the rules :)

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http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/1996-forum-rules/

Trolling

Definition: Inflammatory or off-topic messages intended to provoke other members into a desired emotional response or to otherwise disrupt the topic.

A ) You may not post with the intention of negatively provoking other members.

- If you must leave criticism, consider your post carefully and word it constructively.

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/2126-chat-rules/

1) You may not purposely disrupt chat in any way or by using such actions as excessive trolling or derailing.

•Trolling / Troll - Is defined as where a user posts inflammatory, or off-topic messages intended to provoke other users into a desired emotional response.

•Excessive is defined as more than one instance in a short period of time, or in such a way to be annoying to most players.

•Do not post with the sole intent of upsetting other players.

•Do not post with the intent of causing unrest.

this is what you are doing every time you derail a topic on the forums and on global chat . the said player had paid his debt and was punished for what he did . let it go already making more forum topic on the matter will get you no place

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honestly, until he earns back a bit of trust with the community, people should continue to mention he can't be trusted and they should be aware of that. all this move on nonsense is ridiculous, his rep shouldn't be restored just like that because you guys think it's unfair.


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We have had plenty of shady characters that are still playing the game so i don't know why you guys are giving this one so much attention. Is it because everyone feels like they can now with the rule change?


 


Maybe the rule change was a bad thing in the end. 


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