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Mishia

So...how are bans handled?

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A very good example of this is using a dedicated server - you can issue IPs on request.

Dont think you understand wan vs lan

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Another example:

A previously banned player calls up his ISP to change his IP. An innocent other player also does this - and by coincidence this player gets the banned players IP. He then tries to connect to Wurm and it says he is banned.

 

The chance of that happening are alot like winning the highest amount of money on the lottery. I simply cant see it happening.

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Another example:

A previously banned player calls up his ISP to change his IP. An innocent other player also does this - and by coincidence this player gets the banned players IP. He then tries to connect to Wurm and it says he is banned.

 

My IP changes on a regular basis as does many people's, if not most. If you aren't a service, there's no real reason to even have a static IP. To IP ban someone and make it stick, they would have to ban entire ranges or even entire domains. To ban an account, they just simply ban the account. If it was my account, they would simply ban the name associated with the email to snare alts or just ban Audrel if they weren't after alts as well. Banning a single IP address would be woefully inefficient.

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Dont think you understand wan vs lan

No - you can buy more IP's on request..

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I was accidentally temp banned a few weeks ago. After a few days and an appeal (which was numerous hours of PMs and e-mails) the ban was overturned, but had the GM in question contacted me before they put the ban on my account, then they would have saved hours and hours of both moderation and my time.


 


EDIT: GMs were apologetic but I just hope that the review of what happened yielded or at least helped to yield some positive change and maybe stricter guidelines. Nobody was in danger, the instant ban wasn't necessary.


Edited by Docterchese
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I was accidentally temp banned a few weeks ago. After a few days and an appeal (which was numerous hours of PMs and e-mails) the ban was overturned, but had the GM in question contacted me before they put the ban on my account, then they would have saved hours and hours of both moderation and my time.

I agree - most incidents are like this.

Edited by Wossoo

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There is always evidence.

No one gets a ban just because we feel like it, and all relevant information is collected and available for the entire GM team to review.

 

Most of the delay in the appeals process is because we never act alone as GM's, and tend to get multiple viewpoints on most cases. Often a ban is not even issued immediately, but only AFTER several GM's have weighed in on the case. 

In any event, usually we do not share the specific logs or records of what we have learned because doing so would reveal details about how the data is collected and stored, making it easier to circumvent.  We DO tell the person that was banned WHY they were banned and what they were banned for but we do not post that information publicly.

 

Nor do we discuss bans (indeed any punishment) with anyone other than the affected player because it is not relevant to disclose those details to the community at large,. 

 

We do not issue bans lightly, and there is always a reason behind the ban. 

 

Just a quick note - It could seem to some that a ban is without just cause simply because of what was said above. If a player figures they "got away" with something, then two days later are banned, they are going to feel like it was unjust.

My only concern with bans, even though I have never been banned myself, is that sometimes the "wrongdoing" is in a gray area. Something not specifically covered in any obvious fashion by the rules, but that the GM team has decided was in violation of those rules. Case in point, banning participants of an active PvP raid after a GM used a non-standard method to alert people of a new GM Directive. That case was discussed to death, but the players involved did not have their bans removed early. It has left a bad taste in my mouth though. The GM staff seem to have a "no buts" policy when it comes to decisions - no matter how valid an excuse may be. In a way, that's important, but it also leaves them looking draconian and unfair, especially when a player may feel they have a perfectly valid reason for what they did or how it may have looked.

 

Another issue is how easy it is to circumvent bans. That needs to be fixed. I won't discuss how it is done here, and I'm sure the GM staff is well aware of "how" people do it. I only know the "how" because of my background in networks and development.

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Being someone who has been playing ever since we all wore green hoodies and rode horses standing up, i've only witnessed someone being banned once, he was a "friend" and a huge HUGE nuisance who pretty much made life hell for everyone near him. No one would even vouch for the guy doing a single good thing, but even then the mods took their time to handle all the grieving cases [yes, plural cases] against him before properly banning him..


So other than the usual IP problems [that are usually solved very quickly], i think the whole banning and rule violation procedures are going fine considering the staff amount dedicated to the game. 


 


My 2 irons


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Another example:

A previously banned player calls up his ISP to change his IP. An innocent other player also does this - and by coincidence this player gets the banned players IP. He then tries to connect to Wurm and it says he is banned.

 

No, I don't believe this has happened. The odds are astronomical. IP addresses are purchased in blocks by ISP's they are then randomly split into "random" IP addresses and "Statics" The static range is put aside for tech to hand to customers who purchases static IP packages with their account. The "randoms" are handed to engineering that are assigned at random to new customers that join the ISP and can be changed each time the user re-connects to the system (hence why rebooting your router will sometimes assign a new IP address) 

 

With the number of Wurm players, the chance a player with the same ISP as a banned player got that exact identical IP address is un-imaginable. 

A more likely scenario is someone Google's or shared a proxy that had been used before for nefarious techniques and logged on through that, the account was then tagged by logging in through that IP address and was banned,

 

Source: I worked for a UK ISP for 4 years and one of my main roles was assigning IP addresses to business customers.

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Sometimes stupidly. One person is banned for doing the same things others are doing. Subjective and can change from moderator to moderator. So at times it makes no sense. So yes, discuss and then ban to avoid something that should never have been.


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My first hand experience with the ban process (Full disclosure)

 

I found WurmOnline thanks to a friend many years ago. (Indie had just opened) About the same time, I started researching automated scripting for work. (I work in the technology field) And as you can probably deduce by now, I made the very poor decision to merge both my WurmOnline play time with my research for work.

 

I bought all my in game items with real life currency (full black drake set and high ql enchanted tools) and never sold any items I made. I pretty much stuck to myself "skilling". As such I justified my "automated actions" as not hurting anyone else, when in reality they were hurting the value of player skills themselves.

 

Not long after I started scripting, a GM popped into local and stated that both my characters were hereby perma banned, my IP would be blacklisted for 30 days, and I had 5 minutes to "get my effects in order".

 

I panicked and denied everything at first as I believe most in that situation would. I'm not proud of that, but we live and learn I guess.

I PM'd a friend and told him what happened. I explained that I would be dropping all of my items on the ground of my house for him to take. That I didn't want the money I spent on them to go to waste and I thought he would make good use of them. (He never received them and our only thought was that the GM must have taken them)

 

Did I deserve the ban?: Yes

Did the GM do the right thing in taking any items I dropped?: Yep. All assets should become forfeit. I struggled with this one for awhile, but finally put it into perspective. They are just trying to protect the game and its community. There is however "potential" that this could be exploited. (Get people banned just to take their items) However I feel very confident that there is adequate oversight to ensure this does not happen.

Was the issue handled with professionalism?: Absolutely. Oracle was the lead GM at the time and they were very fair and courteous.

Will I ever consider cheating again?: Hell no. I respect and enjoy the game too much. On the plus side, work is automated quite nice now, so I have more game time. :D

 

It took me several years to decide to come back.

All in all, I have more respect for the game and those who donate their time to keep it running.

 

I strongly advise against any form of cheating. They can tell, and are very good at what they do.

Enjoy the game the way it was meant to be played instead. ;)

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As Kamal's latest alt was last known hanging with Mishia.. I cannot help but wonder.. is this post due in part to Kamal's newly found reputation for manipulation?  Just sayin'...


 


That said, back to your regularly posted topic.


Edited by Nomadikhan
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Banning is the best way to lock down an account. It prevents the user from stashing stolen items, changing account details, etc. Ban process is handled well.


 


Source: banned a couple times because idiot.


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To all of you not team members that have responded to this post, I commend you on your very good understanding of these issues.  Most all of the posts here are really spot on.


There are a couple of tidbits I would like to add though. 


 


With the question Mishia put forth about dedicated servers being used, that is a risk you take.  If that dedicated server is being used towards a negative influence on Wurm Online, we will lock it out even if your account on that dedicated server is not the one causing the issues.  There is nothing we will do to assist with proxied services like that as it would be like leaving the front door open during a zombie attack.


 


As for dedicated IP changes, there is the very rare conflict possibility, however, we are very considerate with an ISP and do our utmost not to lock out an entire ISP if we have an alternative.  Yet it is still possible to run into a future IP conflict in this manner,  Those cases do get reviewed and we will investigate why that IP was previously banned.  In such cases it is possible to lift the IP ban after we can show with confidence that the ne'er-do-well is no longer affiliated with that IP unless there is further issues associated with the IP.


 


In regards to providing evidence.  That is a trap.  We do prefer to provide an explanation as to why the ban has occurred.  Unfortunately, many times the person banned is only requesting information in order to learn what it is we see and by what method they were caught in order to avoid future detection.


 


Taking on the responsibility of a Game Master, we know that it is entirely possible that we will make mistakes, even mistakes that can cost Wurm members, that is why we work as a team with layers of internal review.  You may hear us use the term "Toxic" players in the future.  This will be for those that simply cannot be salvaged from their own negative behavior and negative influence on the game and community.  These sort of cases will always be heavily vetted by the team, as we do not take any of these cases lightly and strive to do our best with the tools we have.


 


Thank you,


Enki (Head Game Master)


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They are handled using both hands, low on the handle, to improve leverage.

Edited by Klaa
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i had a bunch of very dedicated haters over the years accusing me of all kinds of crazy stuff i never did, and i was never banned because i didnt do it. i think if they where banning people first and asking questions later tpikol would have been banned years ago.


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If Wurm GM's were corrupt, I would have been banned ages ago.


 


It's that simple.


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As for dedicated IP changes, there is the very rare conflict possibility, however, we are very considerate with an ISP and do our utmost not to lock out an entire ISP if we have an alternative.  Yet it is still possible to run into a future IP conflict in this manner,  Those cases do get reviewed and we will investigate why that IP was previously banned.  In such cases it is possible to lift the IP ban after we can show with confidence that the ne'er-do-well is no longer affiliated with that IP unless there is further issues associated with the IP.

 

Thank you,

Enki (Head Game Master)

 

I do not know much of IP addresses and all that stuff, but reading this thread about IP changes and IP bans did bring up a big question / worry for me..

 

I am one who travels a lot. I make use of hotel internet and sometimes of a connection that is made possible by FON (this is a service of internet sharing. I open up my home connection to other FON wifi users in the area, in return I get access to other FON sharers/hotspots in a lot of countries). Sometimes I make use of the internet provided in a rental/vacation house. Very rarely I would even use a public wifi just to check up on things or say hi to the village members. I also use a mobile dongle connection when needed which always gives me a different IP address.

 

What would happen if someone got an IP ban, and I happen to log in on this IP address that got this ban? Will I simply not be able to log in until I am on a different IP address again (which I can fully understand) or will my account be banned as well? I know the chances are probably small, but I would like to know I wont be affected by someone else's wrongdoings in the form of a ban and wish to know how much I have to watch out for this.

 

Thank you!

Viti

Edited by Viti

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Viti:


 


An IP ban and an account ban are two very different things, If you by some miracle (the chance is probably on the same order as being struck by lightning) happened to try to connect from a banned IP, the ban would not transfer to your account itself, and as soon as you had a different IP you would connect normally.


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Viti:

 

An IP ban and an account ban are two very different things, If you by some miracle (the chance is probably on the same order as being struck by lightning) happened to try to connect from a banned IP, the ban would not transfer to your account itself, and as soon as you had a different IP you would connect normally.

If you meet the preceding criteria, please come down to Vegas. We have something to discuss.

Edited by Klaa
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I have seen incidents though where multiple temp bans were put in place without any real investigation, on Chaos the great 3 letter word incident.  One person was guilty of the charges leveled against him yet 2 others were sucked into the issue, so be warned terrain modification that spells out obscure Polish profanity can apparently lead to the temp ban of anyone in the vicinity!


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I'll contend  people have to make a concerted effort to reach the point of being banned.

 

Not so. I've seen people banned suddenly, and people that should be entirely booted out of the game stay on almost encouraged.

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Well i only get ban once for 1 week becose i says one player that is not nice to deed in middle of desert.... Harassment ... without any proofs... Player just says what he did and ban was without even knowing for me...

Also i report many players for macro and bug exploids... they didnt care for that.. So i just keep now all for myself

Edited by RockyBalboa
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