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Black_Legion

Where is the line between PvP and Griefing? Is there one?

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This is an interesting concept to think about.  Pvp server is meant to be full on combat winner takes all.  The post here ask where is the line that is too far I"m guessing.   I'm otherwise unsure how you can be griefed on a pvp server other than verbal harassment which has it's own category.  propheteer made some very keen clean points in his posting that I can strongly agree with.


 


Though some may disagree, My view is when pvp is taken to an extreme with pointed negative passion,   it  in general hurts pvp deeply in ways unintended by even the victorious causing atrophy and disinterest into the future.  Then people wonder why there is not active pvp often by the ones doing that level of destruction.  In short taking pvp to this extreme , will likely choke the life blood out of the server unintentionally.


 


That aside, the examples shown aren't portrayed in the full light.  often provocation exists on both sides creating elevated feelings of frustration and anger so one side is not the baddy and the other the innocent victim.


 


I think the intent of the thread was less about calling out any kindgom, it was more to say, is this style of pvp going too far? Though all mechanics allow for it and pvp is full on combat winner takes all, is this good for the long term of pvp?  I think that is what was hoped to be discussed instead it has derailed into KvK debates and debasing of one to another.


Edited by Bloodscythe
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@Argustin: I'm not sure what your propaganda machine has been spinning to sell you guys the nonsense that you are spewing out but it has no place in this discussion.  All through the night posts have come in from camp rehan all focusing on Kaer Morhen, throwing accusations around and the like. This topic may have been inspired by the recent events at Kaer Morhen and as such has some related content, however the reality is that this can happen anywhere really and it's just rather sad that anyone would do it.


 


The cold hard facts are in the original post in this thread, you are welcome to actually read them and comment on the problems facing the server, if as I believe you are just here to troll, please take it elsewhere as this is intended to be a serious discussion on the currently outdated and viscously abused "no holds barred" mindset in play here.

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@Argustin: I'm not sure what your propaganda machine has been spinning to sell you guys the nonsense that you are spewing out but it has no place in this discussion.  All through the night posts have come in from camp rehan all focusing on Kaer Morhen, throwing accusations around and the like. This topic may have been inspired by the recent events at Kaer Morhen and as such has some related content, however the reality is that this can happen anywhere really and it's just rather sad that anyone would do it.

 

The cold hard facts are in the original post in this thread, you are welcome to actually read them and comment on the problems facing the server, if as I believe you are just here to troll, please take it elsewhere as this is intended to be a serious discussion on the currently outdated and viscously abused "no holds barred" mindset in play here.

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I've never PVP'd in a situation where you could have a scorched earth policy like that so such vicious gameplay is a bit new to me, but here are a few thoughts to consider.


 


Say you and I agree to have a wrestling match. (PVP)


 


We toss and tumble and...


 


1.) I pin you to the mat. Match won, we shake hands, good match.


2.) I pin you to the mat. Then I fart in your face. Match won, but you leave with a sour taste in your mouth (so to speak) as to the poor sportsmanship.


3.) I pin you to the mat. Then I bounce your head off of the mat a few times. Then a few more times. Then I laugh at you, come back, and do it again.


4.) I pin you to the mat. Then I kick you in the groin. Then bodyslam you, Then remove the mat and bounce you off the floor a few times. What, you aren't having fun?


 


At what point is your own zeal becoming detrimental? At what point will people simple refuse to wrestle you? That's the question that I think is being asked.


 


I don't PVP, but it looks to me as if you may just be killing the golden goose.


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There is simply no other way to gain land than to remove a whole deed nowadays. If there was a mechanic that meant if you drain the deed once all buildings and walls pop then people wouldnt have to use current the mechanic of removing deeds lol. besides


 


1. We remove your deed. Match won, we offer to shake hands, BL go cry on the furoms.


Edited by demondan

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People defending a deed always have the edge. Still if the enemy are able to completely destroy you, means lack of your defence. This is just like those posts asking mayors to be given lockpicking bonus on their own deeds when enemies raid their deeds, because if enemies lock the bsb's of the deed owner with high QL locks, its considered griefing??? You let them step inside your deed, you lost. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should even listen to you in that regard. 
It is very difficult to deed on chaos with less people, so would someone who doesn't have a deed go on about saying "Help am being griefed, they are not allowing me to make a deed on chaos" .This is an endless argument, because the side who chose to pose this question is certainly ignorant or dumb.

Griefing on PvE and PvP are different, and are clearly mentioned in the Game Rules. If you want to know what's griefing on PvP, have a look here

 

 

Challenge, Epic, and Chaos Servers (Griefing)

Definition:

Griefing on PvP servers is very simple, no defamation of character (insulting their race, gender, creed, nationality or sexuality).

 

Punishment:
 You may be given a directive, warned, or even banned based on the situation.

 

 

Quoting OP

"So I finally get to the question, when does pvp/raiding turn into griefing and is it actually good at all for the server, or the game as a whole when this sort of thing goes on and is seen as “completely legal�"

 

On the sever you play, what you consider or might even think is griefing, is actually allowed. What griefing actually is on that server, is given in the above spoiler. With that said, what's the point of this thread? I smell propaganda post on town square section.

 

With that said am out of this discussion. If you don't even read the game rules properly and term a legal activity as griefing, your ignorant and there is no point in arguing, caus am sure such posts wont affect rolf or any developers because they are sane! :P Cheers!

Edited by Hashirama
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This is just like those posts asking mayors to be given lockpicking bonus on their own deeds when enemies raid their deeds, because if enemies lock the bsb's of the deed owner with high QL locks, its considered griefing

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First of all, we raided KM with 3 people for 2 days. You showed 0 interest into defending the deed, not even logged an alt. When you actually realised, you started popping alts and well, it was too late already. So what was the point of deeding that island if you can't defend it? We took care of that and conquered our old lands by removing the old deed. I see no griefing here since the dirtwalls are DEFENCE, not somekinda heritage site. So next time show up and defend if your deed is really important, or just don't deed random deeds on another side of the server.


Edited by Blazer

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Let me instead turn this around, as you are focusing on the 'this happening to me' view, how about if the enemy put a deed near one of your deeds that you REALLY did not want there.


 


You get your group together, catapult in, get the drain and go home with plans to return and drain tomorrow, the next day etc, until the deed disbands, so you can reclaim your land.


 


You return the next day and the deed is rebuilt, and now there is a small army of alts there building layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of low stone wall.


 


You catapult in again, but this time it takes longer, and the alts sit repairing the walls and generally being a pain in the rear.


 


After several hours, you finally get through, and for all your effort, you get a drain.


 


Day 3 rolls along, and the alts have now got walls all over the deed, and 20 tiles around the deed to boot.  Still no likelyhood of pvp, just alts and walls.  This time it takes you 12 hours to get in, only your group doesn't have the time, so you leave without the drain knowing that the alts will just continue making it stupid to get in past all the walls. And now the drain has lapsed so you're back to step 1.


 


How do you deal with this?  How do you disband the deed, or do you just give up and accept defeat? Honestly, I would like your answer, because your post hints that there is another way, and that we have simply chosen the most 'griefy' way of doing things, for the sole purpose of being malicious.


 


We chose to remove it, Ikea style.  It meant that there was no dirt to reraise walls. There was no safe areas to hide and gather resources.  


 


Ofcourse, using KM as the example this time.  This applies any time you wish to take land, a key part of the game.


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Ofcourse there is always the option of breaking into a deed with a minimum of catapulting and farming it for items, but there are only one or two deeds left on chaos that that this can be done to. Teleporting has a lot to answer for, but hey it suits me atm

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Whilst I appreciate your input, this thread is about the overall problem, I'm not interested in getting into a debate with a group of forum trolls regarding the deed in question or your misconceptions surrounding it.

 

This has happened on many different occasions on many different deeds, this is not an attack on Mol Rehan, its merely a thread to highlight the very real problem that is facing the chaos server and it needs to be addressed.

 

Please kindly refrain from posting any further flaming/baiting posts in my thread as they are not welcome.

 

Thank you

How is it trolling you to inform you we are evicting you from our territory?   If you want to argue with that point do it in game.  

 

If you want concessions, I don't see how trying to make a deed unable to be removed from the face of the server, will advance the game.   It already has enough things that make removing a deed very difficult.   The entire gameplay in Chaos revolves around control of territory so you can see why a kingdom will occasionally try to take territory.   To do that you have to destroy deeds. 

 

I personally witnessed members of your kingdom using alts to hold a deed rather than use mains.   That can only go so far, to be able to defend a deed you need the participation of your entire kingdom, while it's possible to cause us a lot of frustration it won't stop a kingdom that has as many members as MR indefinitely.    Eventually we will punch it's ticket.    

 

I've been playing for a very long time, and have seen hundreds of deeds rise and fall, many of those I called home for long periods of time, but life goes on and things change.    You lose a deed.... well that is just part of playing, you either rebuild it or you find a better location to consolidate your power.   If you can't find that, you go out and take territory.    

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I've never PVP'd in a situation where you could have a scorched earth policy like that so such vicious gameplay is a bit new to me, but here are a few thoughts to consider.

 

Say you and I agree to have a wrestling match. (PVP)

 

We toss and tumble and...

 

1.) I pin you to the mat. Match won, we shake hands, good match.

2.) I pin you to the mat. Then I fart in your face. Match won, but you leave with a sour taste in your mouth (so to speak) as to the poor sportsmanship.

3.) I pin you to the mat. Then I bounce your head off of the mat a few times. Then a few more times. Then I laugh at you, come back, and do it again.

4.) I pin you to the mat. Then I kick you in the groin. Then bodyslam you, Then remove the mat and bounce you off the floor a few times. What, you aren't having fun?

 

At what point is your own zeal becoming detrimental? At what point will people simple refuse to wrestle you? That's the question that I think is being asked.

 

I don't PVP, but it looks to me as if you may just be killing the golden goose.

The trouble with territorial control in a sandbox game is that it can only really be compared with the same thing in the real world. I.E War. Comparing a wrestling match would have to be compared with a spar in wurm. Not only does RL war include scorched earth at times, but in RL the dead stay dead. They don't respawn and come back to try and kill you again, so scorched earth becomes more of a neccessity in Wurm than in RL because otherwise they'll just come back.

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The trouble with territorial control in a sandbox game is that it can only really be compared with the same thing in the real world. I.E War. Comparing a wrestling match would have to be compared with a spar in wurm. Not only does RL war include scorched earth at times, but in RL the dead stay dead. They don't respawn and come back to try and kill you again, so scorched earth becomes more of a neccessity in Wurm than in RL because otherwise they'll just come back.

 

Yep, you will see than in almost every sandbox PvP 

 

Every game I've ever played that puts you in control of territory, you are trying to control three things:

 

1.  The land it'self.  

2.  The enemy respawn

3.  The resources of the enemy to rebuild.   

 

Just count yourselves lucky that resources can be stored in complete safety in Freedom, in most sandbox games I've played with base building your base is everything.  You lose it, you lose most if not all your progress.   

 

And sandbox PvP has to be more "brutal".   It's not a match, its a free-for-all.    It comes down to participation, and willpower.    In a free-for-all you can't count on there being fair numbers, the advantages you have are the ones you make for yourself.    

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The trouble with territorial control in a sandbox game is that it can only really be compared with the same thing in the real world. I.E War. Comparing a wrestling match would have to be compared with a spar in wurm. Not only does RL war include scorched earth at times, but in RL the dead stay dead. They don't respawn and come back to try and kill you again, so scorched earth becomes more of a neccessity in Wurm than in RL because otherwise they'll just come back.

 

This might be why most sandbox FFA PvP games disappear into the abandonware void.

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This might be why most sandbox FFA PvP games disappear into the abandonware void.

 

How so?  There are a ton of good FFA games out there.   

 

DayZ:  It's one of the most popular FFA mods for an FPS ever devised.  If you've ever played Epoch or any of the other base building mods for DayZ you also know that bases are pretty much your lifeblood, you defend it or lose it.   

 

Minecraft PvP:   Faction warfare is quite popular across many servers.  You really haven't lived until you've played on a tekkit style modpack where an ICBM to the Knee is quite amusing.    

 

Rust:   Yea... this takes the term "Free-For-All" To a whole new level.   

 

Just three examples of those sort of games, but I could list hundreds more, the genre is constantly expanding and sandbox gameplay is very popular, if not becoming the new norm.   

 

Wurm's gameplay isn't just a Free-for-All on the PvP servers, it translates to the PvE servers as well, as players play deed it or lose it games with each other, land and territory is just more of a waiting game or economic game than on Chaos.    

 

Here, we sees you on land we want, we can take it.   It has nothing to do with fair play, it has to do with who wants that land badly enough.   

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How so?  There are a ton of good FFA games out there.   

 

DayZ:  It's one of the most popular FFA mods for an FPS ever devised.  If you've ever played Epoch or any of the other base building mods for DayZ you also know that bases are pretty much your lifeblood, you defend it or lose it.   

 

Minecraft PvP:   Faction warfare is quite popular across many servers.  You really haven't lived until you've played on a tekkit style modpack where an ICBM to the Knee is quite amusing.    

 

Rust:   Yea... this takes the term "Free-For-All" To a whole new level.   

 

Just three examples of those sort of games, but I could list hundreds more, the genre is constantly expanding and sandbox gameplay is very popular, if not becoming the new norm.   

 

Wurm's gameplay isn't just a Free-for-All on the PvP servers, it translates to the PvE servers as well, as players play deed it or lose it games with each other, land and territory is just more of a waiting game or economic game than on Chaos.    

 

Here, we sees you on land we want, we can take it.   It has nothing to do with fair play, it has to do with who wants that land badly enough.   

 

None of the ones you mentioned have any sense of permanence. None of them are MMORPG's. Only one of them is found on a static server.

 

I'll rephrase my statement for additional specification and clarification:

 

This might be why most sandbox FFA-PvP MMORPG's disappear into the abandonware void. The recent showcasing of space FFA-PvP games is endearing, but I don't know if they're going to take the EvE approach, or falter under the weight of self-cannibalization that plagues most sandbox FFA-PvP MMORPG's. (Damn this moniker is obnoxiously long)

Edited by Dairuka

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None of the ones you mentioned have any sense of permanence.

 

None of them are MMORPG's.

 

Does it need permanence?   Hell what is supposed to be "Permanent" about playing in any PvP environment unless your not even talking about sandbox games at all?   

 

The whole point of a sandbox is that things can change, Wurm probably has some of the most sluggish PvP environments in a sandbox that I've ever seen.  If you want to prize things always being the same, you came to the right place.  I've never played any other game where a server has lasted for over 5 years.  I happen to enjoy that legacy, even if other sandbox players think I'm freaking batty to keep at it for over half a decade.   I don't however think that should be the most important thing about a sandbox.  Lol.   :rolleyes:  

 

Honestly, if you manage to lose a deed in this game, it's not something that can happen like in Epoch with a single plane smashing into your base, but something that takes days for an enemy to organize much less the massive time and resource investment to actually removing an entire deed's infrastructure from the server.     

Edited by Battlepaw

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Does it need permanence?   Hell what is supposed to be "Permanent" about playing in any PvP environment unless your not even talking about sandbox games at all?   

 

The whole point of a sandbox is that things can change, Wurm probably has some of the most sluggish PvP environments in a sandbox that I've ever seen.  If you want to prize things always being the same, you came to the right place.  I've never played any other game where a server has lasted for over 5 years. 

 

Honestly, if you manage to lose a deed in this game, it's not something that can happen like in Epoch with a single plane smashing into your base, but something that takes hours for an enemy to organize much less the massive time and resource investment to actually removing an entire deed's infrastructure from the server.     

 

Part of what makes MMORPG's so appealing, is the sense of exploration, accomplishment and permanence that accompanies every acquisition and gain. While it's not the whole spectrum, it's undeniable that it's a big part of it.

 

Part of the reason why Sandbox FFA PvP MMORPG's tend to fail, is because they cross the line and destroy that permanence. A five hour epic battle, ends in the ruination of five months of another person's work. It's human nature to get attached to what we've created, and to all that we've accomplished, and once it's all been destroyed, most of us move on. Very few have the stones to brush their shoulders off and move on. If you're one of those people who can brush their shoulder off, Kudos, you automatically have my respect.

 

In essence - The victors conquer, the vanquished quit, then the victors quit out of boredom. It's called self-cannibalization or auto-cannibalization because they are effectively eating their own community until nothing is left. Even EvE isn't immune, the influx of new players to outnumber the outpouring of veterans quitting will eventually tip. Eventually, one side will get so ridiculously strong that it will completely dominate everybody else - and then, when that side gets bored (Or butthurt over something), they will absolutely crush everybody else. Then when everybody else quits, they will quit. EvE is an anomaly because it's managed to prolong this cycle for almost a decade, instead of mere months... I can't name a single other Sandbox FFA PvP MMORPG that has managed to do that without it's PvP numbers stagnating. (If you try to pass off Wurm as one, I will laugh at you. Wholeheartedly.)

 

The reason the games you mentioned work so well, is because they attract a crowd that isn't interested in that sense of accomplishment and permanence. For them, it's more about the thrill of the fight. You may lose at most, a day's worth of work - but because there is no sense of permanence, you don't get attached to your creations. The game then becomes entirely about the fight. Dominating a server rarely is a problem, because there are always other servers to start a new struggle (or struggle in a new area, in the case of DayZ or H1Z1) on. That's what makes them such successful PvP games.

Edited by Dairuka
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Disclaimer: Whilst the below might highlight one kingdom in particular its aim is not to attack said kingdom, more to raise general points about morality and direction of travel in Chaos. 


 


Right now the mechanics of the game favour manpower. I mean, hell, it's wurm, manpower drives this game, whether PvE, PvP or the growing PvB (Player vs Buildings) elements.


 


Realising that manpower is key opens up significant advantages, and why shouldn't it? Should there be limits? Can steamrolling a dead, leveling it to the ground and removing its resources be considered 'abuse'? All very tangible and infinitely debatable questions.


 


On Chaos, as Proph and others have said, each kingdom, at one point or another has enjoyed their time 'on top' - things were good, battles easy, map control gloatable. That changed, multiple times, driven by different core groups of players. 


 


But where are we now? 


 


JK, often referred to as the sleeping giant due to their potential, sits, holding tight defending their respectable chunk of the Map. They take chunks out of MR and MR takes bigger chunks back. The history and resources available to this Kingdom mean it can remain stable, it hasnt had to start from the drawing board in many senses for a long time. 


 


MR, out and out the dominant force and play makers of the server. If they want something they can have it, they have resources the likes of which is unmatched by the rest of the server combined. They have an active player base all buying into the Zerg mentality. It feels good to be powerful, doesnt it? If a person or deed in an enemy kingdom gets in their way or upsets them, then pow - its gone, with the opponent relatively helpless. I've heard many rumours, that to them the end game is total Chaos domination, being the only kingdom remaining a total victory. For starters, I hope this is false, but the endless wardrum that is beaten within MR is fairly conducive to that as an end result. This is faction which transcends what a good PvP server and indeed global community looks like. MR matters to MR, not those who dare get in their way or impinge on their overly indulgent and pseudo-arrogant self image. For MR to show weakness, for MR to back down, for MR to stop believing they are the biggest and the best would be for MR to crumble. Its their biggest recruitment advantage, it perpetually adds to their numbers, hey come to chaos, join the biggest kingdom, endless PvP and endless victory. And credit where credit is due, they have a solid core of active and (outside of forum PvP) nice, engaging and interesting people to welcome people into their ranks. They also benefit from the, can't beat em, join em, mentality.


 


I've tried to keep  the above paragraph balanced, but the point it, MR have a lot of soft and hard power as well as a great deal of influence (mostly legitimate, some with a more questionable source). In many ways, in an ideal world, this would also give them a great deal of responsibility for the future of the server, and rightly it should. For all  you spiderman fans out there:


 


"With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" 


 


Whether it be MR, JK or the next Giant kingdom to reach the top through determination, resource dominance and perpetual godlike ideologies. Such Kingdoms have a responsibility to this game and to the Chaos community.


 


Yes they have the manpower to do what the hell they want - yes its a PvP server, and if you dont like it, k thx go back to freedom etc. But what is such a kingdom actually trying to achieve.


 


Looking at Black Legion briefly. We were late to the PMK game. We rose from the BL ashes of old and had to start from square one. We didnt have an armoury full of 24 months worth of work and conquest. We had no resources, but wanted to inject the third Kingdom mentality back onto Chaos. Fly the flag for BL and carve out an existence in our ancestral homeland. There was just one problem with this, MR had claimed this land through tower and influence and even today has it surrounded in deeds and Kingdom influence. It's been a challenging and hard push, we've had many losses against overwhelming odds, we've made mistakes, we've learned, had a few spirit lifting victories here and there and I genuinely believe our existence has benefited the server. We've added a new PvP dynamic, split some of MR's focus and had laughs all around. What is our responsibility to the server? We bring back some balance, or the glimmer of balance and add to an enriched PvP arena. We like to pick at deeds, but currently and doubtfully have the manpower to ever 'Flatten a Deed' and why would we want or need to? If that deed is gone, we have to travel further for a fight, which is dangerous for us, isolated and far from safety we would certainly die should we be cut off. Its in our interests to have the enemy at the doorstep so we can have some fun bashing some walls and players and scurry home if needed. 


 


If you're still reading at this point then great! Because here I make my somewhat convoluted point. 


 


In a world where one kingdom calls the shots. Where they may want rid of an entire faction all together, just because hey - its PvP for godsake! - then we have a problem.


 


Wurms perpetual manpower advantage makes it more and more difficult to change an emebedded landscape. The only way changes can be made is hard numbers. In a server with an average pop online of 50-60, if any one power can unleash 30-50 people or even create average odds in any engagement of 3:1 then we have a problem. 


 


If said kingdom decides to use that advantage to systematically destroy, scorch, flatten something that might begin to undermine their advantage. Take no responsibility for the consequences that might have and sit pretty knowing it wont affect their bottom line then we have a problem. 


 


PvP on this server, and this servers future, demands balance or at least the chance to create balance. Slowly, but surely Chaos is being choked of that. 


 


Whilst many of you will be thinking what a lovely piece of philosophy and winging this is Noob, stop moaning and get rebuiling our deeds - I hope that some might see the greater message.


 


I could suggest arbitrary changes like:


 


-Cap kingdom size in terms of number of players.


-Cap deed assault times to prevent overwhelming player presence preventing any defense while its systematically dismantled. 


-Balance influence penalties (both negative and positive) - i.e. right now having more influence only adds a few seconds at best onto a tower cap.


-Change upkeep costs depending on number of deeds within a kingdom.


-Reset artifact locations more regularly to create a bit more tension and parity within the PvP environment.


-Engage with players around what a GOOD PvP arena looks like.


 


But ultimately these arent new, and ofcourse, like all things in wurm require mapower to get behind them. Manpower which may be utilised to maintain the status quo, because, its better for them like that.


 


Long has Wilds:Chaos been free of rules and players empowered to make the server. But now, where the underdog is nurtured on a regular basis. Where the main competition can do little more than hold and advance depending on the season and with the morally responsible super power engaging tactics with a possible 'end game' in sight to keep themselves in the seat of power no matter what, I fear for the future of this server.


 


Edits: Some typos persist, my apologies.


 


http://imgur.com/a/q6rWM#0


Edited by NeoAnderson

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We want total domination, there is nothing immoral to that, no matter how many times you try to beat those drums haha. I find it reallllly amusing the morality stance you are taking here, see how that will change your recruitment efforts.

Ps. Doing nothing is the worse for your recruitment. Nobody wants to be in a kingdom that is boring.

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We want total domination, there is nothing immoral to that, no matter how many times you try to beat those drums haha. I find it reallllly amusing the morality stance you are taking here, see how that will change your recruitment efforts.

Ps. Doing nothing is the worse for your recruitment. Nobody wants to be in a kingdom that is boring.

Edited by NeoAnderson
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Dunno, you should read prophs post, the only people you have to blame is yourselves for the situation you put yourselves in. A bit hard to fathom as it is always MR fault in your eyes. You simply need to read the suggestions you made. No honest part that shows any mistake, it's always about us not yourself.

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Could you honestly say that your kingdom has never made mistakes? Maybe if you list your mistakes then we add the mistakes your missed you can see it was never really about your enemy but actually yourselves lol

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Dunno, you should read prophs post, the only people you have to blame is yourselves for the situation you put yourselves in. A bit hard to fathom as it is always MR fault in your eyes. You simply need to read the suggestions you made. No honest part that shows any mistake, it's always about us not yourself.

Edited by NeoAnderson
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Part of what makes MMORPG's so appealing, is the sense of accomplishment and permanence that accompanies every acquisition and gain. While it's not the whole spectrum, it's undeniable that it's a big part of it.

 

Part of the reason why Sandbox FFA PvP MMORPG's tend to fail, is because they cross the line and destroy that permanence. A five hour epic battle, ends in the ruination of five months of another person's work. It's human nature to get attached to what we've created, and to all that we've accomplished, and once it's all been destroyed, most of us move on.

 

In essence - The victors conquer, the vanquished quit, then the victors quit out of boredom. It's called self-cannibalization or auto-cannibalization because they are effectively eating their own community until nothing is left.

 

The reason the games you mentioned work so well, is because they attract a crowd that isn't interested in that sense of accomplishment and permanence. For them, it's more about the thrill of the fight. You may lose at most, a day's worth of work - but because there is no sense of permanence, you don't get attached to your creations. The game then becomes entirely about the fight. That's what makes them such successful PvP games.

 

You know what I prize most about playing on Chaos?   It isn't my dang grape fields, the tunnels I've built, or any of that crap.  It is a sense of personal acomplishment, just like the deeds I've helped to defend, many of which we lost or that fell into abandonment in the end, its about the thrill of the challenge and memories of your time you invested.   

 

PvP is sucessful in sandbox games that challenge players to strive for something.    If you make a pvp game into something that has nothing to fight for, you remove the player's ability to play the game in any meaningful way.    On chaos, it's about territory, artifacts, and the HOTA.    Mostly territory though.  

 

You have to face the fact that a deed is territory you have to keep under control, and any resources you invest into it, can be taken from you.    This has nothing to do with how powerful your faction is, only with how active it is, and how that faction wants to keep the land.    I've seen MR deeds get flattened, then get back up and dust themselves off.    The players either salvaged the deed and rebuit it, with the aid of the kingdom or they moved somewhere more active where they could enjoy the game better.    

 

For BL:  

 

Don't think of yourselves as underdogs, think of yourselves as wolves.    I'm constantly sick and tired of you guys trying to find excuses,  I've had my own back to the wall in territory games with JK, and the most important thing I've taught myself is to just keep fighting.   You lose gear you get it replaced, you lose a deed you rebuild it.  You want something you take it, you lose the artifacts you take them back.    

 

All of this has little to do with sheer numbers and how active a kingdom is, and how much they want something.    JK wanted our artifacts, and we got complacent, so we lost the artifacts.   We used the artifacts to rally our activity that was undergoing a massive slide downwards, and did what had to be done to get them back.    

 

 

Congratulations, I find it quite perplexing how you venture into a premise of the existence of a 'boring kingdom' yet happily indulge in the idea of total domination.

 

Correct me if mistaken, but might a player consider a PvP server with no PvP due to said total domination completely boring?

 

Well  there is one objective in a territory war.   To win it.     If you are not playing the game to win you are doing it wrong.    This isn't the place to build a fairy tail princess kingdom with occasional tournaments where everything ends with singing kumbaya around barbie's pink camper, it's a place to fight.  If you want deeds that can't be removed, there are servers for that.   

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