Sign in to follow this  
Black_Legion

Where is the line between PvP and Griefing? Is there one?

Recommended Posts

As many folks are aware but some not, in wurm you have completely open pvp on the Chaos server and pretty open PvP on Epic, however for the purposes of this thread and due to my experience only being on chaos, I’ll stick to that in this topic.


 


Over the past year since I came back after a break, there have been countless instances where I’ve questioned whether or not playing on a pvp server is actually worth it. Usually I’d just tell myself that it was, as all we used was disposable gear and pvp is the reason I’m here, so the risk vs reward argument has always got me through it. Blacklight PMK’s were introduced late into the server, so Jenn Kellon/Mol Rehan had their strangleholds already, any new kingdom emerging will struggle to get off the ground.


 


Of those who don’t know me, I’m a member of one of those ‘new’ PMKs Black Legion, with the other being Ebonaura, we’re pretty tiny compared to the other kingdoms in terms of membership and land control.


 


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Horde of the Summoned: 0.30


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Freedom Isles: 0.96


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Ebonaura: 0.50


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Black Legion: 1.38


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Empire of Mol Rehan: 24.58


[17:24:07] Percent controlled by Jenn Kellon: 14.46


 


As you can see from the above, almost 25% of the entire server is controlled by one kingdom, which whilst a “remarkable featâ€, is also detrimental to the servers continual existence. This is because as I stated above, chaos is a pvp server and as such, you need enemies to fight. The way towers are distributed the “actual†land controlled is likely closer to double that. With that in mind your enemies need to recruit, but if I was to show you those numbers as a prospective member of my kingdom, you’d need to be pretty crazy to say the server looks like it would be even remotely enjoyable to play on.


 


Now let’s say that despite the fact that there are no limits on a kingdoms size, you still decide to take the plunge and join one of these ‘underdogs’, so you join up and assuming you get to your destination in one piece (remember, the only way into chaos is from the east, which is heavily covered by Mol Rehan) you are now a member of chaos.


A few days pass and you start to get settled in, you start telling yourself that all those horror stories you heard about chaos were untrue, you log out in your bed with some valuables as it’s the only real safe storage as you understand that your house might be raided before you get online again.


 


A day passes and you log back into the game to the news that a large force from the biggest kingdom has attacked the deed overnight, not only have they broken into your house and took your gear as you expected; they took your whole house and the dirt that made up its foundations.


You might at this point say “well it’s a pvp server, it’s to be expected†and start to rebuild your house from scratch.


But what if you couldn’t?


 


What if the same force that had come in the night and raided and then catapulted your home, had also did the same to every house on your deed, every single house and dug every single bit of dirt from the ground and took it away to dump in the ocean somewhere? Personally I’m rather stubborn and the more someone did that to me, the more I’d dig my heels in, but many people wouldn’t, many people would pack up and either stop playing or simply return to freedom with a pretty sour taste in their mouths from playing on Chaos.


 


This might sound like fiction, but unfortunately it’s actually reality and it happens on Chaos way more often than one might think, the most infamous incident being Sparta, however the infamy in that case was shrouded by some other issues that arose on that particular deed.


 


So I finally get to the question, when does pvp/raiding turn into griefing and is it actually good at all for the server, or the game as a whole when this sort of thing goes on and is seen as “completely legal�


 


Personally I don’t mind the risk of raids and pvp, however when people stoop so low as to “flatten†a deed, not just once but multiple times, removing every last thing they possibly can, I just don’t think that’s in the spirit of the game and it definitely is not what pvp is. Being able to spend 4 days on a deed and completely wiping it out as has happened over the past few days and of course many times before. But is the excuse "all in the name of PvP" good enough?


 


Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but there's raiding, there's pvp and then there's the horrible display that Mol Rehan puts on every time they feel like removing a deed from existance, health of the server be damned. This is of course just my opinion, I’m curious what others feel about this, particularly freedom players who have considered in the past playing on a pvp server.


 


I’ll leave you with some images taken of a Black Legion deed over the past few days, make up your own minds;  http://imgur.com/a/q6rWM#0


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy crap.


 


I don't even have words for that.


 


I understand PVP is PVP. But PVP to me means that you fight your enemy, conquer the territory, take it over, and expand your kingdom.


 


What PVP does not mean to me is a 'scorched earth' down to rock policy.


  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well to answer the thread title: Yes. The line is drawn up in the game rules ;)

As for what you're discussing in the post, policing or including game mechanics to prevent 'flattening a deed' would be impossible in the Wurm world, and surely the point of a kingdom vs kingdom server in such a sandbox world is for the kingdoms to strive to remove as much as possible of the other kingdoms? Whether it's attractive or not to play on a PvP server that is basically owned by one kingdom [nb Im not suggesting this is the case at the moment], perhaps it wouldn't be. I guess the only way to find out would be for the other kingdoms to give up on the server and leave, at which points I guess the devs would make a decision on the future of the server. Having said that, just because one kingdom significantly outweighs any other doesn't mean that won't change in the future. A number of years ago MR was on the brink of vanishing.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You deeded somewhere we didn't like.


You pertained and gloated that you had said deed.


You tried to defend.


You GRIEFED to no end on alts upon alts.


You cried.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The deed is pushing on our lands.


 


The enemy is using alts to repair the deed so we can't maintain drains, while having little to no risk to their players.


 


We made it harder for them to repair it, so that we can remove the deed and reclaim our land.


 


This wasn't done just to grief some players, it was done to claim the land.


 


For the record also, this is a war-deed. Has no-one living there, no gear kept there etc.


 


At any point, they could have come over and defended with fighting capable accounts instead of just running around on naked alts.


 


<Rolf>gg


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You might at this point say “well it’s a pvp server, it’s to be expected†and start to rebuild your house from scratch.

But what if you couldn’t?

 

What if the same force that had come in the night and raided and then catapulted your home, had also did the same to every house on your deed, every single house and dug every single bit of dirt from the ground and took it away to dump in the ocean somewhere? Personally I’m rather stubborn and the more someone did that to me, the more I’d dig my heels in, but many people wouldn’t, many people would pack up and either stop playing or simply return to freedom with a pretty sour taste in their mouths from playing on Chaos.

 

 

Coming from a PVE perspective in this "sandbox" atmosphere, that is exactly what I expect of the PVP side of things. I don't see how anyone interested in PVP would fail to see it.

I mean, we are talking about a game where the developers put a mechanic in place that gives the opposing force the ability to steal coins (which have a RL value attached to them) from a village's coffers. Is it really that surprising that opposing forces can and will destroy your lands?

On a last note, I question your "But what if you couldn’t?" comment. How exactly is this player stopped from rebuilding a building?

 

Edited by As_I_Decay
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst I appreciate your input, this thread is about the overall problem, I'm not interested in getting into a debate with a group of forum trolls regarding the deed in question or your misconceptions surrounding it.


 


This has happened on many different occasions on many different deeds, this is not an attack on Mol Rehan, its merely a thread to highlight the very real problem that is facing the chaos server and it needs to be addressed.


 


Please kindly refrain from posting any further flaming/baiting posts in my thread as they are not welcome.


 


Thank you


Edited by Black_Legion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The deed is pushing on our lands.

 

The enemy is using alts to repair the deed so we can't maintain drains, while having little to no risk to their players.

 

We made it harder for them to repair it, so that we can remove the deed and reclaim our land.

 

This wasn't done just to grief some players, it was done to claim the land.

 

For the record also, this is a war-deed. Has no-one living there, no gear kept there etc.

 

At any point, they could have come over and defended with fighting capable accounts instead of just running around on naked alts.

 

<Rolf>gg

Well when you bring 20+ people + artifacts + your champs, its a bit hard to fight back with only 13 people. Alts get the job done with out us dieing pointlessly being out numbered.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be completely real in this post, all drama and stupid ###### aside, and yes, it is my truthful thoughts even though most of you know me like the troll i am.


 


 


 


Every kingdom has had its up and downs. MR got to where it is today because they had an opportunity when two other kingdoms were in a slump, now no other kingdom wants to put forth the effort to remove what MR gained in that oppourtunity simply because they are unable due to something, be it effort, manpower, money, whatever.


 


It's not their fault you were unable to hold your land. It's not their fault you were unable to properly position and build a deed so its vastly easier to defend than it is to attack, its your fault. You are the ONLY person who can get what YOU want. You are the only person in control of YOUR situation.


 


I have been in a kingdom when it was winning multiple times, in every kingdom when it was winning at least once. You know why they won? They had people willing to put forth the effort to do so and they had people that wanted the same thing, and they had people who understood how to get what they wanted out of their situation.


 


JK regained almost 5% of land when we had the people and effort to do so, now that we don't, we will lose some land. I wanted to fix our situation, and I did it. Metaldragon wanted to fix our situation, and he did it. Duce wanted to fix our situation, and he did it. Fez wanted to fix our situation and he did it. Now that small gain may not be a true "fix", but the point is there.


 


If you want a more historical view, prior to this, prior to epic opening, BL was in a slump. We wanted to fix that situation, and we did it. We gained well over 8% land vs JK and MR. Why? Because myself, posteh, stalk, mikeyyaya, whoever wanted to achieve it, we had the same goal in mind, we planned it, and we did it.


 


Before that, why did MR fix their situation after the thrashing they received and were pushed back to GC + WV? Because Horton, because Nadroj, because Maximustehgreat and because Rudie wanted to fix it, so they did it.


 


It's possible if you make it possible, it's not possible if you don't learn from your mistakes, and it's not possible if you don't put forth the effort, and it's not possible if you don't have anyone experienced at the table, and it's not possible if you don't understand how the game is played.


 


 


 


And while I realize i'm probably rambling at this point, maybe it needs to be said another way:


 


You know why MR is winning? Because Wurm is a snowball. They are winning because they had the few remaining experienced players, took the oppourtunity, got a few wins under their belt so they looked active. They looked active, so they got more people. They got more people, they did more things, those people got more experienced. This is why they are a rounded out kingdom, this is why they are winning, they adapted, they did their job, nobody is taking that away from them.


 


Black Legion, and my own kingdom, JK, have had every chance to dethrone them, we didn't for whatever reason, we always can in the future. We can hold our own, we can win, we can lose, however, you do what everyone wants to do, but do remember everyone is in control of their own situation. The only reason your deed got hit is because it was positioned badly, and you didn't have the means to appropriately defend it. I have single handedly defended JK frontline deeds numerous times against 5-6x my numbers, you don't see any of them rotting away or being griefed. Why? because I made an effort, and I adapted to the way the game is played.


 


If you are unable to defend your deed like that, despite having literally every advantage in the book, maybe it has nothing to do with them, maybe it has everything to do with how you go about taking land, how you go for short cons for short-term land gain with no real backing or plan behind it. So as a general tip, before you whine about having your deed thats well over 20 locals away from any assistance, try something new. Look at JK or MR, JK's entire frontline for instance right now has a two tile highway, guard towers, deeds protecting the flanks, and mines, as to be expected. You don't have that because you didn't plan for that. Chaos is about the long game, so stop whining, play the long game, and adapt.


 


You want it, you take it, stop crying about it, it only makes you look bad.


 


 


If you are unable to adapt or do not enjoy that playstyle, there are alternatives.


 


Chaos is a more siege and conquest based form of Wurm PvP. Epic is the middle grounds between conquest and open-ground skirmish PvP. Challenge is fast paced, no endgame, no conquest PvP.


 


Pick one, learn it, adapt, and get what you want out of the game. Nobody is stopping you from doing that, and yes, i understand that some mechanics make it harder, some mechanics are unbalanced, but work on getting them changed for the better of the game. By better, i mean for the enjoyment of everybody and not just because they may or may not be winning because of it.


Edited by Propheteer
  • Like 16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really have alot to say on the topic besides, don't hate the players, hate the game. 


 




But PVP to me means that you fight your enemy, conquer the territory, take it over, and expand your kingdom.


 




 


This is the expectations of a PvE player of what PvP is about. However what they don't realise is that to conquer territory, take it over and expand your kingdom (Or in this case take back lands that were taken using bugged mechanics). The only way to achieve that is by sometimes completely destroying an enemy village. Rolf has not given us a way to achieve land control in any other manner. Hence why I say, don't hate the players hate the game. 


 


In Wurm it is much more difficult to attack than it is to defend. Unless you are willing to defend your deed ultimately you don't deserve to have it stay on the server. I say all of this aswell in a general sense and not in regard to any specific situation. It would be fool hardy of me to think that MR will be the dominant faction forever, all things change and kingdom rise and fall. Once we were a kingdom on the brink of complete destruction, now we are the largest. It will not last forever and the cycle will continue. 


 


Ultimately to the question of where is the line for greifing on a PvP server, that line is when you make something personal, with personal attacks, threats in a RL sense. As long as the game mechanics are being used in a legit fashion if a player is willing to put the effort in to achieve their goals, why shouldn't they be able to reach them. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are you intended to conquer territory, if you are not supposed to remove enemy deeds in the area you wish to conquer? You are complaining about the very CORE mechanic this PvP server exists to allow. Territory Control. If you don't like that mechanic then, I hear sailing over the east border will put you on Freedom.

In order to disband a deed, an enemy must willingly allow its coffers to run dry. Now think, if a kingdom doesn't do that when it's being raided daily and you've had maximum drain on it for two weeks plus, by simple logic the only tactic you could have left against your enemy is to remove whatever causes them to keep the area deeded. And in most cases that.. is the deed itself.

To conclude with my full answer to this thread, there is no line between PvP and Griefing because they are the same thing. Why do we PvP? Why would you kill someone in game and take their items knowing it will probably cause them some distress? Isn't that Griefing? Isn't breaking into someone's house and taking their things, Griefing? PvP = Griefing. Sure you can be respectable as an enemy if you so wish, and some do choose that route. But that's up to the individual. If you don't like the nature that PvP comes from then you probably shouldn't be playing on a PvP server, you won't enjoy it that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, BL vs MR thread, am a neutral party here. If BL gets a chance they completely destroy shroud and take every little thing, even use alts to steal stuff and keep in houses so that others cant take them and what not. I have seen plenty of BL players do that and also spawnkilling newbie players who hardly know whats going on.

Now, I wouldnt say MR or JK or any kingdom on chaos is playing fair. But on a PvP server, your allowed to do whatever you want. If you feel bad that they raided your deed and destroyed it completely, then think about the starter towns you have raided to steal 99 QL forges.  Or the countless noobs you have killed in the past.

Its a pvp server, defend your deeds or face the consequences. If you feel bad and have to make a forum thread just cause your deed got raided, then this server is not for you.

Neutral party, dont care what happens to either of you.

Dont make such threads to hide the fact that you failed to defend your deed. They raided, took the dirt, dropped it in the ocean, their hard work.

Edited by Hashirama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, BL vs MR thread, am a neutral party here. If BL gets a chance they completely destroy shroud and take every little thing, even use alts to steal stuff and keep in houses so that others cant take them and what not. I have seen plenty of BL players do that and also spawnkilling newbie players who hardly know whats going on.

Now, I wouldnt say MR or JK or any kingdom on chaos is playing fair. But on a PvP server, your allowed to do whatever you want. If you feel bad that they raided your deed and destroyed it completely, then think about the starter towns you have raided to steal 99 QL forges.  Or the countless noobs you have killed in the past.

Its a pvp server, defend your deeds or face the consequences. If you feel bad and have to make a forum thread just cause your deed got raided, then this server is not for you.

Neutral party, dont care what happens to either of you.

Dont make such threads to hide the fact that you failed to defend your deed. They raided, took the dirt, dropped it in the ocean, their hard work.

Completely different case when you have GMs to repair your deed, almost instantly after we leave. Dont forget your 20 guards!

 

PS: we never flattened the shroud or completely removed any buildings. We did normal raiding, not a flattening.

Edited by Nicrolis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Completely different case when you have GMs to repair your deed, almost instantly after we leave. Dont forget your 20 guards!

Read the rest :) Its a completely different case when you grief (by your definition), or abuse support system, and even file absolutely fake complaints using tons of kingdom player's help. But when you are subject to such things, you are the victim? Face the fact, no one is a saint on chaos, only hashirama is. And with that said, dont make stupid posts with forum alts in the town square section.

About your PS edit nicrolis, how are those 99 QL forges? Sold em or still use em?

Edited by Hashirama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, BL vs MR thread, am a neutral party here. If BL gets a chance they completely destroy shroud and take every little thing, even use alts to steal stuff and keep in houses so that others cant take them and what not. I have seen plenty of BL players do that and also spawnkilling newbie players who hardly know whats going on.

Now, I wouldnt say MR or JK or any kingdom on chaos is playing fair. But on a PvP server, your allowed to do whatever you want. If you feel bad that they raided your deed and destroyed it completely, then think about the starter towns you have raided to steal 99 QL forges.  Or the countless noobs you have killed in the past.

Its a pvp server, defend your deeds or face the consequences. If you feel bad and have to make a forum thread just cause your deed got raided, then this server is not for you.

Neutral party, dont care what happens to either of you.

Dont make such threads to hide the fact that you failed to defend your deed. They raided, took the dirt, dropped it in the ocean, their hard work.

 

This is not quite on topic, there's raiding a deed, which is what happened at the shroud, then there is flattening deeds, like we've seen from as far back as the sparta incident to this weekends Kaer Morhen incident.

 

If you wish to input some constructive feedback on the topic at hand then by all means feel free, but if you wish to open a separate discussion about raiding in general to rob and leave, then you are of course welcome to do so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do I input any constructive feedback? all the dirt is gone, nothing left for construction? :P

If you have something on topic to say, please by all means. Otherwise please leave the thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the nature of PVP, and all that, and hindering rebuilding. But... damn. :P


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand the nature of PVP, and all that, and hindering rebuilding. But... damn. :P

 

And yes, PvP is all about the materials.

 

We were burning well over 20k mortar and brick a month, and we didn't even sustain the damage BL did.

Edited by Shrimpiie
Moderation Edit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL Propheteer xD He is a guy who talks big and then buys your kingdom accounts for cheap to help your kingdom. And then you see him applying in other kingdoms soon enough. 

Btw you want to sell kix? Buying for 250, selling for 1250? right? Duce must be angry with you.
#Response to your personal remark proph

Edited by Hashirama
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL Propheteer xD He is a guy who talks big and then buys your kingdom accounts for cheap to help your kingdom. And then you see him applying in other kingdoms soon enough. 

Btw you want to sell kix? Buying for 250, selling for 1250? right? Duce must be angry with you.

#Response to your personal remark proph

 

am i being trolled or do you actually think this

Edited by Propheteer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like an... interesting game design.


 


Wouldn't a mechanism to take over deeds be less detrimental and lead to a more fluid conflict? Especially if there was some bonus to the original owner attempting to take it back, however temporary, like CIV's culture bonus?


 


As to the original question, there's two answers really:


  1. "Griefing" is defined by the rules, or
  2. Any time you do something and your "opponent"'s negative emotional reaction is part of your reward, it's griefing. That's probably the "dictionary" definition of it.

As for why I'm responding on a PVP thread... it's posted to town square. I'm tempted to write that the only solution is for everyone to come over to PVE servers ;)


  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me 'griefing' is a freedom term. Pvp in wurm is open to everything the players interact with. It has been stated many times, chaos is very siege based, removal of seigable obstacles and the Battle is almost won. Preparing for a seige takes time. This is why I think wurm Pvp is so cool, even though I participate very rarely.

It seems to me there are many that think Pvp should --- meet on the open field, equal amounts of enemy and fight.

I like what we have here, sometimes we win big, sometimes, we lose bigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool pictures, i like them. For me this is not griefing. I was one of the people on that deed and i would like to remind everyone how much work that really was. I was there for a short period of time so can´t take alot of credit. Now the reason. That deed was planted into another kingdoms (MR-s) influence using bugs. Then it was advised, how awesome BL is because they are winning vs MR? What do you think will happen if you challenge someone directly? Tell them they are losing, bluffing vs them? You know very well what happens. That happens. Big mouth is never a good thing and expanding into enemy lands might end like this. I had fun, others had fun and chaos is all about utter destruction, otherwise it would not work. Truth be told, most of the aggressions vs BL are result of some of your members "tough guy attitude and we win slogans". If you tease a bull you will get the horns.


  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and this thread looks like another propaganda way to show how "bad and nasty" MR is. Reality, you asked for it and you got it. Now gl rebuilding or not rebuilding, your choise.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this