Attn: Community. We need to discuss and update the anti-griefing rules

[Kagrenac 812]

Actually, if say, I catch you off guard or uninformed in Runescape and manage to sell you a (translates to Wurm currency) 50 copper cloak for 1G (several ways to do it, switch last minute or hope you don't notice I used an item with very similar skin, etc..), you report me, someone with the right admin access checks my player file for logs of trades and and chats with the person involved.... 1-day to permaban depending on severity and/or reincidence.  Scamming is scamming.

 

Read it closely, covers pretty much any form of scamming in the book, I'd say including "keep forge open til i got the knarrs and then pick my silver back up" if it were possible in that game.

 "Players must not scam or deceive other players. Misleading other players for your own personal gain is not in the spirit of fair play."

 

What does 'item scam' mean?

An 'item scam' is to obtain GP and/or items from another player by via dishonest means.

 

 

See?  That makes for some pretty clear cut cases considering the way computers log stuff that happens in them if configured properly.  

 

"I didn't know tricking newbies who don't know the value of stuff counted as scamming."  Riiiiight... achieved through honesty?  Not really... A Wurm scammer wouldn't last 3 seconds over there with our loophooles.

Except runescapes rules were never really enforced and instead it was made mechanically impossible to trade items unless you had an equal trade.

 

Which essentially makes it the same as wurm, if game mechanics let you scam someone, you probably were allowed to do it (and unlike wurm even if they do rule against the scammer, you get nothing)

[Dairuka 888]

Except runescapes rules were never really enforced and instead it was made mechanically impossible to trade items unless you had an equal trade.

 

One of the reasons I didn't stick around Runescape very long, was predominantly because my friends who were new to MMORPG's were getting scammed left and right, with absolutely no response from the moderation team at the time. Of course, this was all the way back in the days of 2002 when everybody scammed everybody in every game. Things very easily could have changed since then.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Dairuka

[Mordraug 2,542]

Except runescapes rules were never really enforced and instead it was made mechanically impossible to trade items unless you had an equal trade.

 

Which essentially makes it the same as wurm, if game mechanics let you scam someone, you probably were allowed to do it (and unlike wurm even if they do rule against the scammer, you get nothing)

 

That restriction was lifted ages ago, and seen the banhammer fly mercilessly (i joined in 2004, no idea what happened in 2002 to be honest... was already getting heavy on the scammers by 2006 that i do know).... gambling games have been banned too as that was a classic scam, and getting caught doing so ..BOOM you're out.. granted 2 friends playing dice won't get banned and they generally won't do it smack in the grand exchange either.

[Sarcaticous 338]

Rolf did that once before, in March 2009 I think, when overnight and with zero warning Rolf flipped a switch allowing PvP raiding of PvE servers,    I will have to recheck but I believe a large number simply disbanded their villages and left the game, half the GM staff quit in protest, and Rolf finally reversed it when he realized he lost, overnight, most of his customers and staff.  I will try go go did up some old articles on that. I was not playing Wurm at that time so others will have better memories than me on this.

 

EDIT: I did find a "Day After" front page post that Rolf had made, which is .. interesting!

 

 

 

I also found a 10-page forum post of people disputing their Paypal payments due to the rules being changed to allow PvP anywhere, with zero notice. (It was locked by mods after 10 pages else it might still be running today...) 

 

Independence/Freedom server was created in the aftermath of that whole blowout.

 

At that time, Rolf announced that until he could draw up a formal set of rules, there would be one single rule for the new Independence server -- if you are doing it to cause harm to someone else, then it is not allowed. 

 

Hey Brash. That was sometime before Christmas 2008 I think. I don't recall exactly when either. Huge rage quit. Some time later he closed down J/K Home and made another server. I don't recall what it was called. It didn't go well. Towards the end of that server you would have 20 people on a good day. I quit playing and came back after Indy was well established. I can't remember the name of the server between J/K home and Indy. Maybe he called it J/K Home 2, I don't know. I can't find a reference to it anyplace. 

 

About this rule thing. If the lawyers on this forum would go away something might be agreed on. But you get these people in here with all of this legal garbage and you end up going around in circles. This world would be better off if all of the lawyers and politicians would just vanish. 

[KaiH 1,126]

...

Some time later he closed down J/K Home and made another server. I don't recall what it was called.

...

There was MR home server that had a horrible map. Independence was the server where players from JK Home could sail to.

No other servers other than those 2 and Chaos were existing at that time, MR Home was closed before Inde was made though.

[Ayes 3,715]

 

The only game I know of where scamming is actually allowed is EVE Online. In everything else I've played doing it gets you banned.

 

In the early days of Ultima Online different ways of scamming players out of their items was allowed and even glorified with those adept at doing so earning a sort of open admiration from their peers. The game GM's would do absolutely nothing, give no sympathy and just advise players to be more careful in the future. This was the part of my further education within online games to rely upon myself to protect my possessions within them. Not being a trusting person of others no doubt also served me well.

 

Then there was another building game I played called Active Worlds where the first thing you would do to protect your area was to completely cover the ground with flat panels that would prevent others from doing anything on it. When I entered Wurm I immediately grasped the concept of fencing, as it served this same purpose, although no quite so effectively.

 

Deeds then provide complete protection if you are aware of what can and can't be done within them by non-citizens. Trusting other players that you are not completely acquainted with can result in further problems, which ultimately are the responsibility of the person who put this trust in them. The best protection anyone will have within Wurm is that which they provide for their own items. Somehow no one in this game has ever taken advantage of me in these ways because of what I have outlined here but then again I have little need for *everyone* to like how I interact with them in the game.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

Edited April 6, 2015 by Ayes

[Belrindor 663]

In the early days of Ultima Online different ways of scamming players out of their items was allowed and even glorified with those adept at doing so earning a sort of open admiration from their peers. The game GM's would do absolutely nothing, give no sympathy and just advise players to be more careful in the future. This was the part of my further education within online games to rely upon myself to protect my possessions within them. Not being a trusting person of others no doubt also served me well.

 

Then there was another building game I played called Active Worlds where the first thing you would do to protect your area was to completely cover the ground with flat panels that would prevent others from doing anything on it. When I entered Wurm I immediately grasped the concept of fencing, as it served this same purpose, although no quite so effectively.

 

Deeds then provide complete protection if you are aware of what can and can't be done within them by non-citizens. Trusting other players that you are not completely acquainted with can result in further problems, which ultimately are the responsibility of the person who put this trust in them. The best protection anyone will have within Wurm is that which they provide for their own items. Somehow no one in this game has ever taken advantage of me in these ways because of what I have outlined here but then again I have little need for *everyone* to like how I interact with them in the game.

 

Happy Trails

=Ayes=

 

I do see your point, Ayes.

 

And yes, we could avoid these things by being untrusting and unsocial and never letting anyone set foot on our deed, ever.

 

Then build several layers of 65ql+ stone walls around our deed and perimeter.

 

One of my old Alliance mates was like that, and that's why he took up Masonry. He said, and I quote... "Nothing quite says go **** yourself, like a big, tall, stone wall."

 

Whilst I do like my stone walls, I also like people from time to time and don't like having to keep everyone you meet at a yard's length and treat them as a possible criminal just because someone 'might' do something sleazy.

[Belrindor 663]

Can harrassment really be defined?  What insults or freaks someone out may not necessarily freak me out...... 

 

(See your logic regarding theft?)

 

If you walk up to someone and say "Hey baby, nice tush!"

 

If they like it, it's OK.

 

If they don't like it, it's sexual harassment.

Same action.

 

Such things can't be applied in regards to scamming and theft. If you take something from someone's active deed with full intent to pilfer something from them, that's theft.

 

We aren't talking about an abandoned cart on an abandoned deed, or even a saddled horse in the middle of nowhwere with no one in local. (Horse should be branded anyway, making it easy to see who it belongs to.)

 

We are talking about intentional, deliberate, out and out thievery. Abusing game mechanics that most people don't know about to screw them over and profit from it.

 

How is it hard to see that this kind of behavior should be prohibited and punished accordingly?

[Ayes 3,715]

I do see your point, Ayes.

And yes, we could avoid these things by being untrusting and unsocial and never letting anyone set foot on our deed, ever.

Then build several layers of 65ql+ stone walls around our deed and perimeter.

 

 

Taking things to a bit extreme here, eh? A general attitude of not trusting others does not indicate being unsocial, more like not gullible. Being selective in who one trusts or is even friendly with, I don't view as unsocial-ability.

 

I have deeds where players actually need to travel right through the center of them to get to points beyond. They are never blocked off to travel nor will they be and yet nothing has ever been taken from them. This is not a fluke but proper planning and precautions. I find it enjoyable to see others passing through knowing that I have contributed to their journey, even if not saying anything to them.

 

Some people are cautious and wary by nature and others are not. Can't much change one's personality but just make adjustments to keep items secure by understanding the way the game functions. Still, there will be times when players will abuse others and take advantage of them, so when it is not just poor judgment on the individuals part the matter may require GM intervention.

 

=Ayes=

[Leroy 315]

Not that it matters, but if I had my way the rules would be simple as follows.

 

 

1.  If you can do it, it's intended and legal.

 

2. You can not control, in any way, off deed land. For your perimeter tiles, your only control is the ability to stop new constructions of houses and prevent repairing of houses belonging to non-associated village member. 

 

3. Its your responsibility to secure things.

 

4. If someone is annoying you add them to you /ignore list.

 

 

 

Of note, I don't trust the GMs so obviously I'm not going to want such open ended and personal opinion interpretive rules as the OP is suggesting.

 

 

Then comes along someone with digging skill 1pt higher than yours and maxes out a workable slope around your deed, now go grind it after you crawl over it.

[FreeTineen 430]

The highway rule is most certainly broken I agree, optimization (which i'm sure is being worked on but is time consuming for a small team) are all things that can lead to players growing frustrated. I shall reiterate as I have said before I believe wurm is a good game, this is no way a rant. Yet, things such as randomly changing the dynamics of an entire method of play (war machines on chaos) without for mentioned WHEN WE HAVE A SUPPOSED NEWS SECTION leads to the presumption that either 1) the team don't communicate 2) They don't communicate to their pr department or 3) they haven't got a clue. I'm assuming two is the answer as I don't blame volunteers in any way for trying to do a job.

 

Before this seems to off subject allow me to show my point, rules on wurm are quite like the additions to the game, seemingly appearing often at random and regularly poorly thought out. The highway rule is an example, why can people just plop down a protected road wherever they feel like, what's stopping me popping a highway up to someones deed. Nothing, I know that land isn't claimed but there's nothing the other person can do to remove said highway without consulting a gm within the rules. Makes sense, no.

 

I'm sure the gm team probably can't handle every single minor complaint within the game, because their players too and this is after all a game and not a job but a simple "be good or bye" ruling would probably sort out a lot of problems. Someone been proven to have stolen, warning, warning, ban. Someone proven to have stolen money from another play, well ban. How to address the hearsay, transcribe a copy of logs onto the game when you quit, which can be accessed for this sort of dilemma. Ergo, things can be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Saves up volunteer time, saves up player time and less drama. we don't need more vague open to interpretation rules like the old enclosure rule, or the fcc.

 

Be good, or get gone.

[Depends 220]

Before this seems to off subject allow me to show my point, rules on wurm are quite like the additions to the game, seemingly appearing often at random and regularly poorly thought out. The highway rule is an example, why can people just plop down a protected road wherever they feel like, what's stopping me popping a highway up to someones deed. Nothing, I know that land isn't claimed but there's nothing the other person can do to remove said highway without consulting a gm within the rules. Makes sense, no.

 

We were stopped by a GM from building a highway in someone's perimeter. We were told that if the deed holder didn't want a highway in their perimeter we had to go around. 

[Belrindor 663]

We were stopped by a GM from building a highway in someone's perimeter. We were told that if the deed holder didn't want a highway in their perimeter we had to go around. 

That sounds like a bit of a fluke, considering that perimeter is not considered to be 'owned'. Also, was this before, or after 'legal enclosures' dropped?

[Depends 220]

Just before. We thought it was odd so we asked another GM who verified it. A third one said no, that isn't a rule but since the first two said it was then we had to abide by it.

[Belrindor 663]

AFAIK you can drop a highway anywhere you can drop a highway. It's not the building of one that is restricted, only the removal of one. Yes, this could be used as a form of griefing.

[Uberknot 327]

AT one time they were looking into ways to make it harder to make official highways....might be a good time to revisit that option.