Attn: Community. We need to discuss and update the anti-griefing rules

[Stanlee 3,434]

It activates my gag reflex but I keep playing with the idea of giving papyrus-and-pen some kind of contract functionality that removes most of these problems.

 

I just need someone to call it a terrible idea so I stop mentally toying with it.

 

Please.

[Nomadikhan 2,196]

Would be interesting to have a sort of Ethics Committee or Ethics Board that would take charge of reviewing these cases.. then depending on what they find they forward it to GM's for action.

 

This would be volunteer based, as most of Wurm is, it's a seperate team that takes strain and workload off GM's so that they can continue to do their job... only getting involved when it's truly deemed needed.

[Kadore 926]

Very true. It's not at it's core about getting people to abide by rules. It's about providing the infrastructure to get rid of them if they don't.

Because banning your player base and staff swell are the keys to any successful game.

[akaedis 429]

Dude... if you get griefed way things are now, if the griefer's experienced he'll dodge around it to disguise it as something else... second you go back and retaliate, even if doing the exact same thing that was done to you, since your ******intent****** was to give that player a bad day, 3 seconds later you're reported for griefing with a GM chewing on your head.

 

Guess you've been lucky to not catch that end of the stick, but a lot of people haven't had said privilege.

 

If a GM Is chewing on your head about retaliating, Ask about the rule you broke specifically, Record the chatlogs and report it for GM Abuse. 

 

If you read this over VERY Carefully: http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/7-game-rules/#entry1242020

One thing is clear. These rules are to make the game played as intended, NOT Protect players from each other. Their is no rule saying "No Griefing" (Thankfully). So you are free to retaliate as-long as its within the game intended features. 

 

If a GM Ever confronts me about it, ill do exactly what i always do and defend my right to do what i was doing, i broke no rules. Only rule that could POSSIBLY be put on one person is harassment or cyber bullying, but as-long as you keep my mouth shut, im fine. 

 

If someone chooses to grief my place, id thank you rly, i need a moat dug, rl badly atm. And trees removed for me and converted to a desert so i can get sand easier, for mortar. If they lock me inside my deed with siege shields ill just get a GM to remove it since thats what the anti grief rules are for specifically. 

 

Point is here, GM Is not meant to protect your crates, or your land for that matter, They are here to make sure the game is played as rolf want's it to be. If a GM Doesn't do that, And gives you a warning about it, Then their out of line and it should be reported. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by akaedis

[Uberknot 327]

Dude... if you get griefed way things are now, if the griefer's experienced he'll dodge around it to disguise it as something else... second you go back and retaliate, even if doing the exact same thing that was done to you, since your ******intent****** was to give that player a bad day, 3 seconds later you're reported for griefing with a GM chewing on your head.

 

Guess you've been lucky to not catch that end of the stick, but a lot of people haven't had said privilege.

 

This has been going on since Indy opened.. they use alts and friends and act like they did nothing at all.

 

Its one of the biggest underworld problems in Wurm that has caused many people to leave.

 

Some of these folks are even well known and have well known help.....

 

And there is nothing you can really do about it they know how to skate the rules.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Uberknot

[Belrindor 663]

For the record, it's not my intention to babysit the topic, nor respond to every single post here. It's just meant to facilitate the discussion for the community on a topic that many people I have spoken with personally feel is an issue.

 

Although to address a point someone brought up, no, this is not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to the other thread. The way griefing is handled has bothered me for a very long time. It's more of a 'strike whilst the iron is hot' and eyeballs are on the topic kind of thing.

 

My alliance quit over being endlessly griefed and having zero recourse. One by one they dropped off, until I had no alliance. These were good people. Honest, honorable people, fun to play with.

 

Some had multiple deeds. Now they're all gone. However not a single one of them posted in the forum that I'm aware of, ever.

 

Many people just play the game, they don't post in the forum. These people come and go without a single forum member knowing they even existed. But they mattered. And they made Wurm a better place.

 

And now they're gone. But the griefers are still here. Including the one that griefed my entire alliance for months on end and is the direct reason most of them quit.  And yea, some of them are very well known and have very high up connections and alliances.

 

FWIW for the cutesy 'Forum Warrior' commentary, FYI, I can post in the forum so much lately because I'm shackled to my station during most of my playtime with a newborn on my lap, and I don't have much else to do between waiting for the action timer to complete. (Other than play Minecraft, which I do instead from time to time.) So I read the forums, and comment on whatever catches my interest.

 

Realistically, I don't expect much if anything to change. I doubt we'll even see much of a reply on this other to state the same lame ass excuse of why it must stay status quo, instead of working with the community to find an actual solution to the problem.

 

And to those griefers that make our beloved players quit the game, I say to you... No chocolate eggs for you! May the Easter Bunny leave a different kind of chocolate egg in your basket!

 

So... discuss.

 

Either something will be done, or it won't. That's not in my hands in any way. At least the attempt has been made.

[Mordraug 2,542]

This has been going on since Indy opened.. they use alts and friends and act like they did nothing at all.

 

Its one of the biggest underworld problems in Wurm that has caused many people to leave.

 

Some of these folks are even well known and have well known help.....

 

And there is nothing you can really do about it they know how to skate the rules.

 

Cost Redbaron his job... /justsaying ......... 

[Uberknot 327]

Cost Redbaron his job... /justsaying ......... 

Oh yeah sooner or later someone does get busted....which is great.

[Mordraug 2,542]

Cost Redbaron his job... /justsaying ......... 

 

***Clarification***

 

People get griefed away, people don't pay, no funds, people get fired.  

^

I meant that, not Redbaron was up to wrongdoing.

 

Keep saying "it's just pixels" now.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Mordraug

[Uberknot 327]

***Clarification***

 

People get griefed away, people don't pay, no funds, people get fired.  

^

I meant that, not Redbaron was up to wrongdoing.

 

Keep saying "it's just pixels" now.

 

ohh... ok, well you need to speak the whole story I didn't even know what you were talking about. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by Uberknot

[Depends 220]

Dude... if you get griefed way things are now, if the griefer's experienced he'll dodge around it to disguise it as something else... second you go back and retaliate, even if doing the exact same thing that was done to you, since your ******intent****** was to give that player a bad day, 3 seconds later you're reported for griefing with a GM chewing on your head.

 

Guess you've been lucky to not catch that end of the stick, but a lot of people haven't had said privilege.

 

In the case of 2 people or groups going back and forth like that, whoever reports first ends up being the (semi)innocent victim while the one who didn't report is seen as the griefer. This seems to be especially the case when the actions being taken aren't against the rules. THe majority of the time though it's completely based on the GM that responds, the mood they are in, how much time they have, and whether or not they know the rules.

 

We've had players threatened with bans from GMs for "griefing" by grinding woodcutting in a forest too close to another deed. The deed owners had decided the forest was within 100 tiles of their deed and so belonged to them.

There was an alliance member killed by a GM for intimidation because he was reported for being afk on the highway next to the deed of someone who had reported him the previous day.

[Belrindor 663]

***Clarification***

 

People get griefed away, people don't pay, no funds, people get fired.  

^

I meant that, not Redbaron was up to wrongdoing.

 

Keep saying "it's just pixels" now.

This is a very good point, and one that I hadn't thought of in context with this issue.

 

When my alliance mates left, they took several hundred dollars of month income for Wurm with them.

 

One of my alliance mates had VERY deep pockets. We used to call him 'Scrooge McDuck'. He shelled out several hundred a month on his own, and was very generous to his alliance mates. Heck, I still have my 80ql toolbelt he bought me from when I first started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrooge_McDuck

 

By contrast (most) of the griefers I've seen sell their stolen booty and then brag about using the silvers to pay their premium. They aren't paying cash.

 

(Nothing against productive Wurmians that pay with silver, as they contribute to the economy in other ways and facilitate trade and a healthy economy.)

 

So griefed players quit and take Wurm income with them.

 

If griefers were removed, how would Wurm income suffer from those players being gone? Largely it would not. And that's the difference.

 

Who knows? Maybe if the 20 people that I used to play with still played, and didn't get 'griefed out' of the game, Johan would still have a job. Poor Johan.

 

No, these aren't 'just pixels'. They're real people, and real people depend on this game to feed their families.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Belrindor

[zMole 12]

Rules need to be clear and precise, having a rule like

"Do anything that I do not like and you are banned"

will not help the game. Griefing on this forum usually just means someting has happened that the poster did not like.

 

Agreements made in PMs should not be GM enforced

[joedobo 1,187]

Not that it matters, but if I had my way the rules would be simple as follows.

 

 

1.  If you can do it, it's intended and legal.

 

2. You can not control, in any way, off deed land. For your perimeter tiles, your only control is the ability to stop new constructions of houses and prevent repairing of houses belonging to non-associated village member. 

 

3. Its your responsibility to secure things.

 

4. If someone is annoying you add them to you /ignore list.

 

 

 

Of note, I don't trust the GMs so obviously I'm not going to want such open ended and personal opinion interpretive rules as the OP is suggesting.

[mrtaccgnol 60]

if I can pick it up, it wasn't stealing

[KanePT 699]

Not that it matters, but if I had my way the rules would be simple as follows.

 

 

1.  If you can do it, it's intended and legal.

 

2. You can not control, in any way, off deed land. For your perimeter tiles, your only control is the ability to stop new constructions of houses and prevent repairing of houses belonging to non-associated village member. 

 

3. Its your responsibility to secure things.

 

4. If someone is annoying you add them to you /ignore list.

 

 

 

Of note, I don't trust the GMs so obviously I'm not going to want such open ended and personal opinion interpretive rules as the OP is suggesting.

Problem is we know for a fact that our devs are humans, half are volunteers, and Quality Control is all but non-existant.

So end result is half the time they can't predict "what you can do". And sometimes "what you can do" can have wayy to big a impact on others or how the game is played.(hence the creation fo the term exploiting a loong time ago).

Once again you manage to show us just how little beyond your nose tip you can see.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

Activate pvp on all freedom servers for 24hrs

 

Call it the Purge

 

Problems solved.

[joedobo 1,187]

 

Once again you manage to show us just how little beyond your nose tip you can see.

 

Insults mean nothing to me. Again, "If I had my way".  I been playing Wurm for a long time and my view is based on what I've seen and experienced. While my forum post count doesn't mean much what it does show is I'm somewhat active on the forums. Consequently, I have at the very least been aware of the various situation that have come up over the years.

 

Joe's /playtime

[15:53:07] You have played 861 days, 12 hours and 55 minutes.

[15:53:07] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of the Wurm, week 4 of the starfall of Omens, 992. That's 2341 days, 23 hours and 22 minutes ago.

 

Qex's portal date (my first wurm toon)

[15:57:11] You have played 316 days, 15 hours and 36 minutes.

[15:57:11] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of Sleep, week 2 of the starfall of Diamonds, 982. That's 2803 days, 16 hours and 27 minutes ago.

[Mordraug 2,542]

if I can pick it up, it wasn't stealing

 

Yeap... Wurm wouldn't suffer from losing certain players.

[Sarcaticous 338]

 

Insults mean nothing to me. Again, "If I had my way".  I been playing Wurm for a long time and my view is based on what I've seen and experienced. While my forum post count doesn't mean much what it does show is I'm somewhat active on the forums. Consequently, I have at the very least been aware of the various situation that have come up over the years.

 

Joe's /playtime

[15:53:07] You have played 861 days, 12 hours and 55 minutes.

[15:53:07] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of the Wurm, week 4 of the starfall of Omens, 992. That's 2341 days, 23 hours and 22 minutes ago.

 

Qex's portal date (my first wurm toon)

[15:57:11] You have played 316 days, 15 hours and 36 minutes.

[15:57:11] You entered through the portal to Wurm on day of Sleep, week 2 of the starfall of Diamonds, 982. That's 2803 days, 16 hours and 27 minutes ago.

 

[Belrindor 663]

 

As for the rules, I prefer the 'if it ain't yours leave it the he** alone' rule. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Belrindor

[Hordern 2,177]

I did not mean to discourage you. I would like it if Wurm decided that it was a mistake to drop the Code of Conduct.

I don't think any staff especially wanted to remove it as far as any understanding of how people should play the PvE game goes. It was removed because people kept quoting it in place of rules [despite big warning's stating that it was not part of the rules directly], twisting things and generally causing more work and difficulty than it ever solved.

[Mordraug 2,542]

I don't think any staff especially wanted to remove it as far as any understanding of how people should play the PvE game goes. It was removed because people kept quoting it in place of rules [despite big warning's stating that it was not part of the rules directly], twisting things and generally causing more work and difficulty than it ever solved.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Mordraug

[Shiraek 464]

Activate pvp on all freedom servers for 24hrs

 

Call it the Purge

 

Problems solved.

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Rolf did that once before, in March 2009 I think, when overnight and with zero warning Rolf flipped a switch allowing PvP raiding of PvE servers,    I will have to recheck but I believe a large number simply disbanded their villages and left the game, half the GM staff quit in protest, and Rolf finally reversed it when he realized he lost, overnight, most of his customers and staff.  I will try go go did up some old articles on that. I was not playing Wurm at that time so others will have better memories than me on this.

 

EDIT: I did find a "Day After" front page post that Rolf had made, which is .. interesting!

 

 

I have hinted about it and written posts stating that the game would go in that direction. I did not give warning the day it happened. Not to the players, not to the staff. The obvious question is why not?

There is not one single answer to that question. The move was a mix of frustration, stress, enlightenment, timing and determination. I was not interested in discussing the decision at all. I got the feeling that it was time. It had to be done. When that happens I usually give in. I would gladly discuss things that I am unsure of but not this and not this time.
...

I hear that a lot of the nice players and staff members that make up the caring core of the home servers already have or consider to quit because they just don't want to be close to PvP. I respect that and I am glad if I made the decision easy for you. It is sad since if I had given warning and discussed it a lot of you may have stayed and maybe realized that you can cope with it. Some may even have started to enjoy the benefits the change will bring.
...

It is too early to let the vision be ruled by you the customer. I must have faith that I see things that many of you do not.

I hope that right now you assess the situation and take it for what it is. See if you actually do get raided and how bad it actually gets. If you don't do that I know you have good reasons for your decision.

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Brash_Endeavors