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Remember Greed Monger?

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Yeah, it was the sandbox mmo that was being hyped up as some kind of Wurm killer.


 


There was some lively discussion here on the wurm forums and some skeptics basically called out Jason Appleton for having no experience with game design predicting that Greed Monger would fail here on these forums.


 


Turns out he ran Greed Monger into the ground while blaming its failure on everyone under the sun and has run off with the  90k in kickstarter contributions.


 


Jason Appleton gave off some huge slimy scumbag vibes back then. Turns out that gut feeling was right.


Edited by Shrimpiie
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Too bad, really. That game looked like it had a lot of potential.


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Hmm.. and here we are still playing wurm like always wonder what will be deemed the next "wurm killer" 


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Number 1 problem with Kickstarter/EA and the like: No incentive for people to finish what they're doing if they've already gotten paid.


(I realize this case is slightly different as they haven't met the kickstarter terms but many games are guilty of this)


 


Create media hype -> Get funding from kickstarter/early access -> Release crude alpha riddled with bugs/missing features -> Patch a lot the first few days/weeks -> Once hype wears down and most are bored of playing the alpha, stop releasing updates frequently and let the game die


 


Much easier than actually making a good game then selling it and open to all sorts of abuse, as can be seen in this case.


(Kickstarter does help a small portion of projects actually come to fruition that otherwise would not be possible)


Edited by Outlaw

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Bad thing is now even steam has an early access that is more or less the same thing. I learned my lesson i will not fund any more new games anymore i don't need a fancy forum badge or early access to play an unfinished game anyway.  (not this game posted about here but i have funded others i was unhappy with) 


Edited by Kegan

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It's nice of Jason Appleton to win at his own game, and become the ultimate Greed Monger. :ph34r:


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Number 1 problem with Kickstarter/EA and the like: No incentive for people to finish what they're doing if they've already gotten paid.

(I realize this case is slightly different as they haven't met the kickstarter terms but many games are guilty of this)

 

Create media hype -> Get funding from kickstarter/early access -> Release crude alpha riddled with bugs/missing features -> Patch a lot the first few days/weeks -> Once hype wears down and most are bored of playing the alpha, stop releasing updates frequently and let the game die

 

Much easier than actually making a good game then selling it and open to all sorts of abuse, as can be seen in this case.

(Kickstarter does help a small portion of projects actually come to fruition that otherwise would not be possible)

Believe me, developing anything after initial motivation from starting new project starts to run out is impossible without alternative source of motivation, for example in form of feedback or/and money, especially when working alone or in very small group (properly managed groups can deal with this).

This is why I don't like Kickstarter and "open alpha" too much as well - both of them will drain your motivation quickly if done incorrectly.

Edited by Warlander
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Kickstarter affords the perfect opportunity to abscond with contributors funds. Of course the contributions are voluntary so the loss is attributable to those that contribute to these schemes. Why people will give their hard earned (or otherwise) funds away to finance others operations through this K site is beyond me.


 


Anyway, yes I remember this guy came into Woodscraps hyping his "project" with quite the belligerent attitude. He who laughs last, laughs best, the saying goes.


*laughs*


 


=Ayes=


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Believe me, developing anything after initial motivation from starting new project starts to run out is impossible without alternative source of motivation, for example in form of feedback or/and money, especially when working alone or in very small group (properly managed groups can deal with this).

This is why I don't like Kickstarter and "open alpha" too much as well - both of them will drain your motivation quickly if done incorrectly.

 

Not only that, even for the few games that do end up being completed to a high standard (can't actually think of any), most people are bored with them by the time they get developed that far after having played the alpha/beta for so long already.

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I try to always remember that the real Greed Mongers are Kickstarter...


 


5% of every project...


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Not only that, even for the few games that do end up being completed to a high standard (can't actually think of any), most people are bored with them by the time they get developed that far after having played the alpha/beta for so long already.

A fitting video talking about that phenomenon and more,
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmLz00L6CmY

Edited by Raamkozijn
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Number 1 problem with Kickstarter/EA and the like: No incentive for people to finish what they're doing if they've already gotten paid.

(I realize this case is slightly different as they haven't met the kickstarter terms but many games are guilty of this)

 

Create media hype -> Get funding from kickstarter/early access -> Release crude alpha riddled with bugs/missing features -> Patch a lot the first few days/weeks -> Once hype wears down and most are bored of playing the alpha, stop releasing updates frequently and let the game die

 

Much easier than actually making a good game then selling it and open to all sorts of abuse, as can be seen in this case.

(Kickstarter does help a small portion of projects actually come to fruition that otherwise would not be possible)

 

I wouldn't say no incentive, but it sure would be interesting to see a class action or two where backers who haven't received rewards take action, and another where the project wasn't delivered. KS make it quite clear that you are obligated to deliver on your rewards and to make every reasonable attempt to complete your project.

 

As for EA, there are some really good, interesting games in Early Access right now that would never have been made, or whose development would've stopped without it. I'm sure there's some garbage there too; I do notice quite a lot of caution these days for both KS and EA and I think that's a healthy thing, even if it hurts those who really are trying to deliver content. The number of failed projects is eroding the credibility of these services whether the failure is due to incompetence or a deliberate scam.

 

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I agree Shiraek, there are some great games being made possible thanks to EA.


It is 99% trash though and now that big companies are taking advantage of it, it's just getting worse.


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A video I had linked in the original post that summed up the situation was removed for naughty language.


 


Here's a link to the channel of creator of the video, he's also making new videos and keeping it up to date on the drama:


 


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnxzGCFfybsBOFXy-uGKteg/videos?flow=grid&sort=da&view=0


 


Again, don't watch his vids if you can't handle the occasional 4 letter word.


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vasisuelle reminds me that Jason Appleton owes me a bet:

 





Ey ey! Prepare your wallet!


 


'ElectricCrow', on 25 Nov 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:snapback.png



When the game is finished, I'd bet $100 that you will be right alongside everyone else scrambling to log in on launch day and when you do, know that while I'm giving you the last work here in this thread, I'll have that day when I welcome you to the game you tried so hard to bring down.



 


 



 


 


Who wants to bet on whether he pays off that bet?

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Hey I heard of that game

 

Now I remember who it was who so entertainingly ripped apart the game and creator in the first thread :D

 

 

vasisuelle reminds me that Jason Appleton owes me a bet:

 

 

 

 

Who wants to bet on whether he pays off that bet?

 

Well it seems he can afford it now at least :P However, technically it's not a valid claim as the game's not finished and never will be ;)

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A fitting video talking about that phenomenon and more,

 

I remember that vid and I agree with the basic message. Devs and Gamers alike - proceed with caution. Absolutely.

 

But it can work. The only Steam EA games I've bought are:

  1. Kerbal Space Program

Prison Architect

Subnautica

Of the three the only one that couldn't be released as complete right now is Subnautica, and it's pretty close in my opinion - although of course it will benefit from a longer development.

 

Have I been lucky? Or is it possible that with a bit of caution you can avoid buying crap? (these aren't rhetorical questions I really don't know) As for big studios, them calling something "complete" means nothing to me. How many "complete", "released" games have been a hopeless mess? I've lost count. The last one I bought was Rome 2 Total War. Don't get me started on it... but it was basically in very EA state when it released for $90 or whatever.

 

And by that stage I had already sworn I would never buy another "new" game without reading reviews. After Rome II I don't even trust reviews anymore. After buying it I went hunting for an honest review, found one (to my chagrin) on a major site that I used to trust, and linked it to my friend. He went to the page and said the link was broken, nothing there. I reloaded and the article was gone. And a nicer review was up in its place next to ads for Rome II. I am not making this up, I saw it with my own eyes.

 

So I don't know. As a gamer, the only reviews I really trust nowadays are those by other gamers. I tend to read through a bunch of steam reviews for a game before I buy it. Some will be fanboys, some will be haters, but most are just normal people who checked out the game and what they write usually decides me. Not whether it's in EA, or "released" or whether a big studio or a small one made it (although I can't remember the last big studio title I enjoyed? Skyrim probably...) or what the "gaming press" say. You can even check out the author of a steam review. What other games do they play? How many hours have they played this game? If they spent <2 hours and gave up their view's kind of irrelevant IMO. If they gave it 10 and think it sucks they're probably on the money. If they say it's wonderful and spent 150 hours... they're for real.

 

As a developer, Early Access is a godsend. I would be right now looking for work if we hadn't released on Steam Early Access. Instead I get to keep my job, I get to keep my company, and we might be hiring our third employee soon. Exporting games and hiring local talent instead of working a job someone else could have and working on my dream as a hobby.

 

As for KS. I really don't know what the future holds. It was supposed to be a source of funding for things which would otherwise not get funded, but it's become a place for the big names to go and clean up, and of course it's attracted a lot of scammers, like flies to rotting meat. If you think you get scammed as a backer, try running a project there. I got several emails a day, at one point, offering us various "backer buying" schemes (yes all of them we reported, not sure what happened never heard anything), and we were accused of being a scam ourselves a few days' in - ironically because we didn't have that many backers but were doing well, we had almost no $1 backers which made us really stand out as odd. A few weeks' in it was clear that the number of backers was the only stat KS was using to determine whether a project was "popular" or not, which explained why people were selling batches of $1 backers. I don't think I'll ever run another KS. Yeah, we got funded, but no thanks to KS or the whole sickening economy around it - virtually all of our backers were sent to the page from our website, from in game, word of mouth, facebook page or emails, or the handful of small press sites that covered us.

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I remember that vid and I agree with the basic message. Devs and Gamers alike - proceed with caution. Absolutely.

 

But it can work.

Certainly, EA / KS can very much work very well. Plenty of games (including board/card games!) that successfully brought something into he world by help of EA/KS.

I think the video simply means to relay that blindly backing any and all games that promise the world and more while a small team (or solo person) within a surrealistic timespan, might not be wise.

Another thing is to try and keep your expectations low as a gamer. As in, try to be aware that what you're playing is just an alpha/beta version and thus not a full release experience.

 

Early Access can allow a developer to keep their own vision for their games and such, rather than finding investors who then will likely "demand" changes. Especially when you're trying to make a game that isn't mainstream so to speak, it can be detrimental to make such changes.

 

No idea what the future holds for KS. There are still very potential projects on it, and I think it'll stay that way. The question is, how much further will the genuine:scam rate go down over time? Sadly, greed is a big incentive for some to abuse and exploit an otherwise great system. I don't know how that can be fixed, it exists in not just KS but in day-to-day things just the same. Such things tend to only get "Fixed" by making it harder to use and thus a bit more difficult for greed to take over; sadly oftentimes it also negatively affects those who could actually make use of it the way it was meant to be.

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Oh holy hell O.o


 




A video I had linked in the original post that summed up the situation was removed for naughty language.


 


Here's a link to the channel of creator of the video, he's also making new videos and keeping it up to date on the drama:


 


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnxzGCFfybsBOFXy-uGKteg/videos?flow=grid&sort=da&view=0


 


Again, don't watch his vids if you can't handle the occasional 4 letter word.




 


Holy *beeping* hell .....


 


I NEVER knew that Jason Appleton threatned to sue Wurm Online over the whole conversation on the Wurm forums <.<


 


As shown in one of the video's: 


 


" - At the same time a poster from Wurm Online (maybe the same guy idk) exposed the same information which culiminated into Jason Appletons meltdown where he threatned to use the Kickstarter to sue Wurm Online forum and also penned the above threat to the poster " 


 


I'm quite shocked at this haha :P In a good way. Just shocked at the amount of stupidity of Jason Appleton,


 


-------------------------------- Fun Edit ------------------------------------


 


Apparently he's also threatned to sue his only programmer who worked on the Greed Mongers project for wanting to leave. And after the guy actually left he's throwing even more lawsuit threats at the poor guy O.O


Edited by Aeszhara

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Newer update of the Greedmonger derpdrama.. I've took a quick glance at the GreedMonger forums and found the following post:


 


http://www.greedmonger.com/forum/showthread.php?2063-Papers-have-been-signed-I-leave-Greed-Monger-in-others-hands&p=29950#post29950


 


Jason Appleton has left the developement and signed over all responsibilities and ownership of GM to James <.< 


 


So yeah... That's it... He left :P 


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To pull off a game of that scope with $90,000 is possible, but you'd have to be extremely careful in what you decide to create first. You would also be living off of Chicken and Rice up until the date of it's release, predominantly because even a single cent spent on yourself will result in lower odds that your game will be funded up until the moment you can start charging players to play for a game they'd actually want to pay to play.

 

Though I have an extremely little amount of knowledge about this game, or it's development process - I'd wager this whole ordeal could've been avoided by setting proper and clear design plans for a simplistic and fun game, then tack on the extras that will make it shine as you find other sources of revenue. (Many great games did so by finding publishers after they had a working and interesting product to offer. A great example would be Mount & Blade. There have also been additional kickstarter events for games that have released, but look towards expanding upon their core game. Shadowrun Returns would be an example here.)

 

From day one, I've been with Mount & Blade, and there is one thing I've learned as it, even still, is going through it's growing stages. People will forgive you for a flawed game, if your game is engaging and fun.

 

Even though this guy is as skeezy as it seems, I still mourn the loss of a game that looks like it could have been genuinely interesting. Losses in this tiny niche of ours will only hurt us in the long run, as future developers may shy away from the premise for fear of ending up like Greed Monger.
 

A video I had linked in the original post that summed up the situation was removed for naughty language.

 

Here's a link to the channel of creator of the video, he's also making new videos and keeping it up to date on the drama:

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnxzGCFfybsBOFXy-uGKteg/videos?flow=grid&sort=da&view=0

 

Again, don't watch his vids if you can't handle the occasional 4 letter word.

 

This guy deserves more attention. He should probably eliminate the number of obscenities from his rants to appeal to a wider range, but I see this guy going places - the way he talks is very inviting and very informative.

 

Thanks for the link.

Edited by Dairuka

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as i said then, i seen this coming. Hes a scammer, who bought assets n called it a game.


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