UPDATED / Warning - DO NOT trust Bruhamoff or anyone associated with him!

[Devily 623]

Exactly.

 

If there is no recourse for such actions, and the victim is continually told that it's their fault, and the perpetrator is 'protected' and nothing done, it only encourages such behavior.

 

There is a very large difference between CAN do nothing against such behavior and WILL do nothing against such behavior.

 

This does bring to light a huge gap in the rules that I think needs closing and which has plagued this game ever since I've been playing. The victim is told it's their fault and the criminal is immune to punishment. That needs to end.

 

Indeed. I also mentioned in freedom chat

 

If you got the proof like Gnome has . You should get help from a gm. Its a game.. it should be fun.

Also.. this is in freedom not chaos not epic.. freedom.. it should be peacefull and fun. Let a GM teleport the guy to chaos as a punishment for his action. ( Sounds a bit like the old medieval days.. A person banished from court )

 

I just hope wurm is going to take more actions against this other than that i said that and have nothing more to say.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Devily

[Belrindor 663]

At it's core, this is a failure of game mechanics and needs to be addressed in some fashion. Things like this should simply not be able to happen on Freedom server, and if they do, then there needs to be wide leeway for recouping the loss and/or punishing those who exploit bugs.

 

Someone who is running a macro is cheating. Someone who is exploiting a known or unknown bug for their own benefit is also cheating and can be banned.

 

How is this any different?

 

Mechanics are being exploited. Knowingly and for gain.

[Belrindor 663]

Indeed. I also mentioned in freedom chat

 

If you got the proof like Gnome has . You should get help from a gm. Its a game.. it should be fun.

Also.. this is in freedom not chaos not epic.. freedom.. it should be peacefull and fun. Let a GM teleport the guy to chaos as a punishment for his action. ( Sounds a bit like the old medieval days.. A person banished from court )

 

I just hope wurm is going to take more actions against this other than that i said that and have nothing more to say.

 

The solution here is a simple one.

 

The thief's accounts (including alts and anything under their IP, not hard to do),  are looked at, the 40 silver found, and stripped from their toons/deed on the back end, and given to the victim. Neat and tidy.

 

The transaction would then be FORCIBLY completed.

 

And I'm going to go out on a limb here as I often do, and suggest that contrary to comment that it IS the GM teams responsibility. If we can't go to them for remedy when griefed, who can we go to?

 

There is a MUCH larger issue here than this particular incident.

 

It's about how griefing in general is tolerated and responded to. Or rather, not responded to.

 

Are the GMs seriously going to make us call them for approval to move a highway 3 squares, but then say don't bother them when we are ripped off for massive amounts of silver due to faulty game mechanics that almost NONE of us knew about? (I certainly didn't and neither did Gnomey, and they trade a LOT.)

 

So the whole, "Suck it up' we can't help you, it's not our problem" kind of response isn't going to work.

 

Any time I've been griefed, the perps got off scott free and I was told I could do nothing. If I did the EXACT SAME ACTION the perp did, it would be griefing. Explain that backwards logic to me.

 

Player A hits player B in the face with a pie. Player B says, hey, you hit me with a pie. I'm going to hit YOU with a pie!

Player B hits player A in the face with a pie. Player A calls foul. Player B is punished for 'griefing'. Nothing is done to Player A. Who then proceeds to pie everyone they can as they now know they can get away with it.

 

Really? I mean... really?

 

Addendum: I'm not faulting the GMs in particular here, I'm faulting the craptastic process that allows people to have no recourse from griefing. They are just following the shoddy process. The process needs change. Every time we see a griefing incident come up on the forums, there is never any remedy and the victim is told it is their fault. Is this a healthy mindset and attitude to have?

 

There needs to be an actual recourse. You can't tell people, too bad, so sad, you are just screwed. But that's exactly what's happened in every griefing incident that happened to me or my Alliance, or that I've even read about here on the forums. It's a broken system that needs fixing, so instead of saying that there is nothing that can be done, how about we look at ways to implement real deterrents to griefing. Otherwise, you are just encouraging cyberbullying.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Belrindor

[Aeszhara 29]

*cough* No denial of these accusations been made by Bruhamoff, He even brags about it. *cough*

 

*cough* This is not a isolated case with Bruhamoff *cough*

 

*cough* There's a pretty decent base of people who have been damaged by Bruhamoff so far *cough*

 

*cough* This kind of behaviour CERTAINLY does NOT fit on Freedom *cough*

 

*pats chest* Damn.... i must be getting a cold soon. So many coughs

[Tarator 100]

It was theft , he did it with intent to steal , this has to be addressed surely ? 

 

 

 

Edited to reformat drunk monkey typing 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Tarator

[Belrindor 663]

And Bruhamoff is just laughing all the way to the bank, as he knows, as usual, nothing will be done.

[Kyleshandra 205]

If the silvers were put down, and then able to be withdrawn, and this was done with the intention to deceive and shaft you out of your just payment, then that would fall under the category of 'exploit' at the very least.

Also, I think that shafting someone intentionally is totally against the rules.

If someone can be banned from abusing the mailboxes to send COD stuff to people, or selling enchanted goods that aren't enchanted, then certainly this situation is at least equally egregious.

It sure seems obvious to me that this was an intentional ripoff from the start. Otherwise, why would he have insisted on the separate container instead using the forge or whatever.

[Kyleshandra 205]

I haven't tried this but it seems possible.

I have seen several shallow harbors where Knarrs and litle boats can enter but so can enter along with carts. With that sort of situation, would it be possible to gate the entrance so a lock/key could be exchanged, much like people do with horse merchants?

It wouldn

Edited April 4, 2015 by Kyleshandra

[Belrindor 663]

I haven't tried this but it seems possible.

I have seen several shallow harbors where Knarrs and litle boats can enter but so can enter along with carts. With that sort of situation, would it be possible to gate the entrance so a lock/key could be exchanged, much like people do with horse merchants?

I've never seen a gated waterway... is that possible?

[Wurmhole 3,650]

Hopefully with such detailed info, GMs can transfer the silver back to Gnone, then delete the offending account & IP ban.  Will be a fantastic lesson for others considering a life of griefing in Wurm.  Not read entire thread, so if resolved already to Gnmes satisfaction, then awesome sauce.

 

Great guy to trade with. Fair prices and fantastic service.

[FranktheTank 1,901]

It's not against the rules to be a crook in game as far as I know.  That being said, I'll never do business with the guy now.

Your right, it is not against the rules. If it was I know a lot of people including myself who would be banned.

[Stanlee 3,434]

Afterthought: this is why a game that emphasizes a connection between in-game and real-life value needs some sort of trade facilitation across time-zones, like a contract on a merchant that when you buy it you gain an item that transfers ownership on use of the crate/container, vehicle, writ, deed, etc. We just aren't given the means to do trades for anything that's not an inventory item in an adequate way!!

 

Heck, it'd be a decent use for the already-existing pen-and-papyrus (with a sign function) to create actionable contracts under threat of GM involvement because everyone loves contracts and this idea would never totally backfire almost immediately now that I'm thinking about it

 

People can and will always say that the victim had a hand in causing their situation, but that never means we should accept this kind of ry.

[4neofclubs 97]

I would love to see some action on this situation.  We probably wont hear the outcome, but it'd be nice to be updated on whats happening.

[Tazinsky 93]

I have heard of him a few times, and he's slandered a few people in game calling them scammers etc (turns out they aren't)

 

and then i see this, he's a shady player should be dealt with, personally i don't even need to guess if this is true or not because i hold gnomegates in highstanding through my time playing never had issues with previous deals,  this is totally wrong and hopefully a GM will intervene since it is quite clearly greifing  he intentionally put the silver there to deceive you and then took it back to me thats greifing, if it was in your deed it should of became yours but as far as im aware you need to touch it first but under the circumstances i hope action is taken against him, we dont want nor need players like him in the game.

[Belrindor 663]

I've heard that it takes one player with bad intentions to ruin the game for many.

 

I don't think that's true.

 

It takes INACTION against one bad player to ruin the game for many.

[Cista 429]

I have skimmed through the thread, and I don't see any posts that have mentioned precedence for handing back money or stuff that was stolen by simply picking them up. I remember it has been mentioned previously that the GMs will deliver money back, but certainly the griefing rules do not mention anything about theft. Also, the game rules certainly allows confidence tricks where a player enlists in a village and runs with what they can get their hands on from communal storage bins and chests.

 

If the GMs do not take action here, then the solution for large Wurm transactions of e.g. ships is to involve third parties (players) that handle the trade. It works well in EVE, and would fit in with the spirit of Wurm as well IMO.. 

[Mormo 353]

As always, the human being is the weakest element of the system.

[Tazinsky 93]

Or simply writs for boats  cista, that would eliminate the middle man.

[Corsan 199]

I know nothing of this situation...just want to state my personal experience with said individual.

 

I previously setup a deal with another player (Name withheld) to buy my corbita and cog...we'd setup a deal where they'd ride out to my place on Xan, then I'd take them over to the other server (Pristine) to get them...and the deal was 'half now/half later' for a total of 12s (Cost of doing two trips + the boat costs themselves.) and so we did one of the trips...and they chose to take the corbita first. We did the trade...and I'd been waiting for them to setup another time for the other transaction...and then Bruhamoff sails by my place...with the boat I'd just sold them...and tells me a story of them badmouthing me...saying I'd charged them 6s for a corb...and that they didn't want to do business with me, and were over there smearing my good name...and telling me that he'd traded 2 decent swords to the individual as he was sorry for them supposedly getting ripped off...to take the boat off their hands.

 

I in turn, offered to pay him the silver that was intended for the second trip back over as I was hurt to hear someone was smearing my name after a goodfaith business exchange. (4s for corb + 1s for travel costs...as it was crossing 2 servers + on the total opposite side of the server...leaving 1 silver that was intended for the other travel costs, or to be returned.) Bruhamoff actually refused to take this coin as offered, and attempted to try and sell me something at cost to take the silvers off my hand, as a business transaction instead, but I had no desire for anything he was selling so we parted ways...I added him to friends list for a short period...in which we chatted a few times and he told me some story about how he was quitting due to RL stuff...and then he proceeded to link me his 'I'm quitting, buy my stuff' sell thread like the next 3 days I logged in...and then proceeded to tell me he'd changed his mind after I saw him setup a new deed and asked him about it...he then asked to 'borrow' my knarr another day to which I replied that 'Yes, I do mind.' and quietly removed his name from my friend's list when he wasn't online another day.

 

So, I'm not sure what his 'game' is here...but this is disturbing to hear...so perhaps my previous buyer didn't do any of the stuff that was said...(He definitely didn't contact me to continue the transaction...as I still sit here with two Cogs to my name.)...and I do know that Bruhamoff turned around and sold my corb to someone on Deli or Inde or one of those old servers...(May they enjoy it!)...I just wonder if he didn't actually steal that from the previous buyer too.

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

[mrfusion 21]

The solution here is a simple one.

 

The thief's accounts (including alts and anything under their IP, not hard to do),  are looked at, the 40 silver found, and stripped from their toons/deed on the back end, and given to the victim. Neat and tidy.

 

The transaction would then be FORCIBLY completed.

 

And I'm going to go out on a limb here as I often do, and suggest that contrary to comment that it IS the GM teams responsibility. If we can't go to them for remedy when griefed, who can we go to?

 

There is a MUCH larger issue here than this particular incident.

 

It's about how griefing in general is tolerated and responded to. Or rather, not responded to.

 

Are the GMs seriously going to make us call them for approval to move a highway 3 squares, but then say don't bother them when we are ripped off for massive amounts of silver due to faulty game mechanics that almost NONE of us knew about? (I certainly didn't and neither did Gnomey, and they trade a LOT.)

 

So the whole, "Suck it up' we can't help you, it's not our problem" kind of response isn't going to work.

 

Any time I've been griefed, the perps got off scott free and I was told I could do nothing. If I did the EXACT SAME ACTION the perp did, it would be griefing. Explain that backwards logic to me.

 

Player A hits player B in the face with a pie. Player B says, hey, you hit me with a pie. I'm going to hit YOU with a pie!

Player B hits player A in the face with a pie. Player A calls foul. Player B is punished for 'griefing'. Nothing is done to Player A. Who then proceeds to pie everyone they can as they now know they can get away with it.

 

Really? I mean... really?

 

Addendum: I'm not faulting the GMs in particular here, I'm faulting the craptastic process that allows people to have no recourse from griefing. They are just following the shoddy process. The process needs change. Every time we see a griefing incident come up on the forums, there is never any remedy and the victim is told it is their fault. Is this a healthy mindset and attitude to have?

 

There needs to be an actual recourse. You can't tell people, too bad, so sad, you are just screwed. But that's exactly what's happened in every griefing incident that happened to me or my Alliance, or that I've even read about here on the forums. It's a broken system that needs fixing, so instead of saying that there is nothing that can be done, how about we look at ways to implement real deterrents to griefing. Otherwise, you are just encouraging cyberbullying.

100% agree.   Game mechanics need to change or the STAFF ATTITUDE needs too, that includes the owner/operator.  I've come back after a 1 year break, and I'm dealing with Xanadu lag and seeing a long-time and honest trader (Gnome) getting pissed-off.  I've seen multiple power-players (people that spent a lot of time playing) that got mad at the way the staff handled things (or didn't handle them) and left for greener pastures.   Lag is one thing.   Poor customer service is another.  People can forgive lag, if it is explained to them, and they are kept updated.  Why do I feel like I'm wasting my time here. . . . . 

[Belrindor 663]

You know why I hate bullies so much? I was bullied as a child. Horribly. Sometimes physically, always verbally. I was a pacifist. I abhorred the use of violence in any form.

 

I was told by the teachers that I couldn't defend myself. If I did that made me 'worse' than the bullies. I was told it was 'my fault' for being such an easy target, and to grow a set and 'suck it up'.

 

So I did. I put on 50 pounds of muscle and took martial arts. I also put the bullies in a hurt locker the next time they laid hands on me, and they never touched me again ever again. Granted, that's not to be recommended or considered here, but the simple fact is a bully will not stop until they are stood up to. You MUST stand up and to the right thing, or your lack of action WILL be seen as a weakness and exploited.

 

They really aren't laughing at Gnomey here. They're laughing at Wurm and how easy it is to do the things they do, and never be punished for it.

 

And that's what this is, pure and simple. It's not mutually agreed to conduct. It's bullying. One side is having fun at the (literal) expense of the other.

 

It's either stopped, or encouraged by lack of response, and it's really just that simple.

 

I love this game, I really do. I very much enjoy my time crafting and farming and the like.

 

But this fetid breeding ground for cyberbullying/griefing has really got to be nipped in the bud. That will require a change of attitude and/or policy, but it needs to be done.

 

Otherwise we'll continue to lose good, productive Wurmians whilst the trash run all over us. And no one wants that. (Other than the trash, of course.)

 

 

Play Nice Or We Will Rip Your Heart Out (griefing)

Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others.

A ) You may not block access to deeds, merchants, or structures not belonging to you.

B ) You may not call guards to kill penned animals on deeds you are not a citizen of. (They ain't hurting you!)
C ) You may not steal deeds from the original mayor or residing citizens.

 - resident citizens on democratic deeds may vote a new mayor for any reason.

D ) You may not intentionally create player traps. (i.e. Using siege shields to trap other players)

 

Can we get this to have some actual teeth? Please? Perhaps append it in some fashion to include out and out swindling?

 

Because right now, it's looking an awful lot like a lion with no fangs. Actually it doesn't LOOK too bad... It's just not enforced. The griefers know this, and capitalise on it.

 

I would say that the case with Gnomey definitely falls under "Definition: Activities that are not constructive and with deliberate intent to do harm to others."

 

If you swindle someone out of 40 silver AND THEN also make off with the boats you were supposed to be buying with that 40 silver, that (to me) is definitely 'not constructive' and sure as heck is with deliberate intent to do harm to them.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Belrindor

[Aeszhara 29]

@Mrfusion,

 

That's the entire reason i've been throwing this post up on Xanadu freedom chat whenever i'm on. Partly due to our alliance being stolen from by Bruhamoff and partly because i keep seeing people like this getting away with horrible acts like this without any sorts of punishment. Only warning, warnings, warnings and yet again warnings. (although 90% of the time we get told its our own fault)

 

Yes i fully understand that we should have been more cautious. But then again. If the game forces us to basically be as security tight as can be without KOS'ing anyone we don't know for at least a certain amount of time. Then what kind of economy does this warrant in Wurm Online?

 

I'd fully understand a staff response of " Should have been more carefull, can't ban / punish for this " if it were a one-time situation. But with certain people (Bruhamoff being the most recent example) it's just become painfully clear that there ARE people who are taking advantage of the community's good faith and way of playing the game.And isin't our community the most valuable thing we have in Wurm? The tight knit player base. Which acts due to maturity and common sense.... Only to be ruined by people like Bruhamoff and then see them walk away laughing in our faces for the .... .well.... " crimes " they commited?

 

Seeing as we as a Freedom community have no way whatsoever to protect it.... Then who should we look for? In my own honest opinion it'd be the GM's. To handle these cases seperatly and individually. One time offenses should warrant a warning and then give the perps a chance to redeem themselves. But with people like Bruhamoff doing it over and over and over again..... I hope to god (rolf in this case haha) that'd it at least warrant a slight tap / full hit to the face with the almighty ban hammer.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

That said. I'd really like to see a staff response to this. As to what they think about it. This latest situation with Bruhamoff being a massive *beep* riled up the Xanadu population to some extent. Gaining some response from the staff would give us something to grab hold onto or give us peace of mind in the case of proper punishment.

 

As i've said in Xanadu Freedom chat... The entire decision falls with the staff. We as a community can only express our concern / outrage over these cases and hope the staff will take that into account somehow. To that end i have full faith that the staff will deal with this to their best capabilities!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Aeszhara

[Uberknot 327]

Always get the money first....

[Corsan 199]

@Corsan,

 

He most likely used one of his alts to conduct the trade with you or your buyers. He's known for having a small army of alts or associates who participate in his shady dealings.

 

Nah, I talked with the prospective buyer and his friend that he brought along to pilot his other boat on TS. I actually hung out in TS for awhile after, thinking the deal was still on, and hoping to sell the cog off too. Bruh came in there and was chatting too, and that user actually disbanded his deed and 'moved in' with Bruhamoff for a time...though I saw he setup another deed eventually somewhere else...(He'd told me he was moving on from Bruh's place as soon as he could.)

[Aeszhara 29]

Nah, I talked with the prospective buyer and his friend that he brought along to pilot his other boat on TS. I actually hung out in TS for awhile after, thinking the deal was still on, and hoping to sell the cog off too. Bruh came in there and was chatting too, and that user actually disbanded his deed and 'moved in' with Bruhamoff for a time...though I saw he setup another deed eventually somewhere else...(He'd told me he was moving on from Bruh's place as soon as he could.)

 

Ah okay. Well that's one of the problems xD 

 

Too confusing when people have so many damn alts! (which i have myself as well.. It confuses both me + my alliance when i suddenly respond from an alt to a topic i started with my main >.< )

 

But thanks for clarifying it for me at least