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Caveman

Is it morally wrong to steal items in-game?

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I’ve read some recent threads by people who have had items taken from them in various ways. Some are caused by carelessness such as not locking and mooring a boat, to not properly managing deed permissions and have lost a large amount of goods, animals, etc. This got me thinking, if you steal something in the virtual world, a boat for example, is it morally wrong in real life? That boat is nothing more than 0’s and 1’s but, it took someone a significant amount of time or a sum of real world money to acquire. So while the boat may not have a truly physical existence the cost of the owners real world time and money does have existence and is now gone.


 


So where is the line drawn between right or wrong and real or fake? One argument could use actors in a movie as an example. The actors character may be a horrible person but that doesn’t have any reflection on the actor. A counter argument may be of the view that if you spend your real world money and time on an item than there is proper ownership of that item.


 


For the sake of argument let’s say that there is nothing in the terms of use stating that all data is property of code club etc.  I know there are some people that play Wurm who take theft very seriously. If none of this makes sense please know that it’s 3am and I’m at work and I shouldn’t be allowed near a keyboard


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Some people like to play the bad guys. Having bad guys in a game is good. It adds variety. I did a lot of bad things while playing in Freedom too. Embezzlement to cut in lines, bashing into enclosures, killing bred animals, cutting forests, looting disbanded deeds, having deed-wars with neighbors etc. What would amaze you though is that most con acts need two sides. I wouldnt be able to embezzle top Independence crafters to cut in line and delay others orders if they werent prone to bribery.


 


Game would be boring if we'd only have law abiding citizens.


Edited by Sizzle

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Don't hate the player, hate the game.

ooooo ? Are you a pickup artist sir ?

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Morality is relative, everyone has, and is entitled to, their own opinion on what's right and wrong, and this can vary based on the situation.


 


There are no rules to govern how one thinks.


 


Since theft is part of the game (see Stealing) then it isn't morally wrong in the eyes of the developers or GMs unless it's taken by means of an exploit.  Players on PvP servers are wrongly placed if they feel that theft in game is morally incorrect.  However those on PvE servers may in fact have the complete opposite opinion.


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"is it morally wrong to steal" ...thats what you asked, really? C'mon...


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I’ve read some recent threads by people who have had items taken from them in various ways. Some are caused by carelessness such as not locking and mooring a boat, to not properly managing deed permissions and have lost a large amount of goods, animals, etc. This got me thinking, if you steal something in the virtual world, a boat for example, is it morally wrong in real life? That boat is nothing more than 0’s and 1’s but, it took someone a significant amount of time or a sum of real world money to acquire. So while the boat may not have a truly physical existence the cost of the owners real world time and money does have existence and is now gone.

 

So where is the line drawn between right or wrong and real or fake? One argument could use actors in a movie as an example. The actors character may be a horrible person but that doesn’t have any reflection on the actor. A counter argument may be of the view that if you spend your real world money and time on an item than there is proper ownership of that item.

 

For the sake of argument let’s say that there is nothing in the terms of use stating that all data is property of code club etc.  I know there are some people that play Wurm who take theft very seriously. If none of this makes sense please know that it’s 3am and I’m at work and I shouldn’t be allowed near a keyboard

 

Quote from the floor somewhere in second life "The only things in here that are real, are our feelings, so play nice!"

And for me that's what it comes down to. Yeah, those animals you broke in and stole weren't real. Bits and pixels. But their owner might have loved them, and THAT is. That's what makes it wrong, and that's why I could never do it, not even on a PVP server.

What REALLY does my head in is when I'm coding AI with feelings. I mean those feelings are nothing more than electrical impulses somewhere... but so are yours!

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ooooo ? Are you a pickup artist sir ?

I pickup a lot of things, if you get what im sayin

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I pickup a lot of things, if you get what im sayin

hahahaha :P

 

If I ever have the luxury of going back to freedom in the near future, I'll form a thieves guild that will be specialized on stealing poorly guarded, ill trusted goods from the greedy freedomers. I'd invite all the scum of freedom and we would terrorize the lands and the seas.

Edited by Sizzle

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If you want an insight on this topic, look up George Carlin Human Behavior on Youtube. I'd post it here, but someone might get their knickers in a wad over a few vulgar terms.


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I think it's morally wrong. But this is a game, and developers say robbing and bad guys gives some "spice" and fun to the games. At the end, it don't gives "spice", it gives more income for the game (income from the robbers and income from the honest players paying for not being robbed). Robbing to another players is permitted (and even supported) in many (maybe all) games.


 


But if you steal money to the game itself (using hacks, exploits, macros, glitchs, etc...) you will be quickly banned.


Edited by Enderman

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"is it morally wrong to steal" ...thats what you asked, really? C'mon...

I think you missed the point. It is really more of a question of weather or not a virtual item has a real existence to merit morality. Then the original question still remains.

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I've never scouted out a site, waiting to see tokens/walls drop. Never lifted things out of someone's boat or cart (that I didn't have permission to). Never have stolen their vehicle (and that includes livestock). I don't pay attention to other's deed settings, and half the time I don't even bother killing the aggros on a deeded road because I assume that the settings won't allow me to pick up my butchered goods. 

Now... for the "juicy" stuff:

I have enclosed traders left over from fallen deeds. I salvage heavily damaged items from places that are abandoned, including precious bsbs and the materials found within (if they're of "worthy" quality). I have bashed into the fortifications of abandoned sites to dispose of the ungodly amount of creatures found to be penned (and abandoned) inside.  

Basically, I am very respectful of your property... until there is clear evidence that you are gone and your items are on the verge of poofing from decay. Then, they become mine.

On the morality of it, I think Shiraek summed it up nicely. We are playing a game... and that's why I have no qualms about salvaging an abandoned site. My morality loosens up a bit because it is a game. I don't go out graverobbing in real life or anything. :P

Edited by As_I_Decay
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If you have to ask if something is morally wrong it probably is.  :rolleyes:


 


This is a game though.


 


 


 


 


BTW it is frankly scary to think some people find morality relative/subjective whatever. Things like that I guess are why crime occurs.


Edited by Elen

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Your point about it being a virtual item, so therefore it isn't real doesn't hold up.


 


Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it is OK to steal. Think of intellectual property rights in 'real life' etc. Sure, it's just an idea/concept, but it's against the law to steal. (That is arguable more complex an idea than stealing a virtual item) Or stealing other digital goods, such as code for a game/program.


Due to Wurm's 'real life' economy, i.e. euros for silver, items in Wurm have a very real value. If someone just spent 20 euro on 20 silver and you steal that 20 silver, well you've essentially just stolen 20 euros from someone. (Sure, you have to 'RWT' to extract the value back into euros, but you've gained a monetary sum within the game even without doing so.


 


Another way to look at it is from a time spent / work done / value added aspect. If someone spends an hour chopping logs and you steal said logs, you've stolen an hours worth of time/effort from them, no different to in the 'real world'.


 


Steal 5 silver, an hours time spent, whatever, it affects you just like losing something in 'real life'.


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Doesnt it give more than take when 'stealing' from someone.

If they learn it 'the hard way' in a -game- doesnt that more likely prevent things like this in real life.

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Doesnt it give more than take when 'stealing' from someone.

If they learn it 'the hard way' in a -game- doesnt that more likely prevent things like this in real life.

On that branch of topic, a video game is not the place one should be acquiring valuable life lessons.  The parents/teachers should have taught them before they even picked up video gaming.

Edited by As_I_Decay
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If you have to ask if something is morally wrong it probably is.  :rolleyes:

 

This is a game though.

You just said that it is morally wrong, then contradicted yourself by adding "This is a game though" and you roll your eyes...

Edited by Caveman

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Your point about it being a virtual item, so therefore it isn't real doesn't hold up.

 

Just because something is intangible doesn't mean it is OK to steal. Think of intellectual property rights in 'real life' etc. Sure, it's just an idea/concept, but it's against the law to steal. (That is arguable more complex an idea than stealing a virtual item) Or stealing other digital goods, such as code for a game/program.

Due to Wurm's 'real life' economy, i.e. euros for silver, items in Wurm have a very real value. If someone just spent 20 euro on 20 silver and you steal that 20 silver, well you've essentially just stolen 20 euros from someone. (Sure, you have to 'RWT' to extract the value back into euros, but you've gained a monetary sum within the game even without doing so.

 

Another way to look at it is from a time spent / work done / value added aspect. If someone spends an hour chopping logs and you steal said logs, you've stolen an hours worth of time/effort from them, no different to in the 'real world'.

 

Steal 5 silver, an hours time spent, whatever, it affects you just like losing something in 'real life'.

I like the points you bring up and I mostly agree with you that it is stealing. To quote you "Another way to look at it is from a time spent / work done / value added aspect. If someone spends an hour chopping logs and you steal said logs, you've stolen an hours worth of time/effort from them, no different to in the 'real world'." When you say that it's no different than in the real world, what exactly do you mean? For example if a truly good person, someone who has never stolen anything in their life spends their time on wurm stealing and doing other things of that nature are they no longer a good person in the physical world because of how they choose to roleplay in a virtual world?

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I guess it depends on the persons value system.....Morally wrong can be different for each person.


 


There are rules to be followed in the game thats about it.


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I guess it depends on the persons value system.....Morally wrong can be different for each person.

 

There are rules to be followed in the game thats about it.

 

I would argue that morals are on a societal/cultural level rather than a personal.

Also if stealing isn't going against your moral code, there can't be much left.  Other than physically harming someone, there isn't much else left. I would argue that theft is both emotional harm (distress caused, lack of feeling 'safe' etc) and also uhm...'time harm?'. By that, I mean you only have so much time in your life in which to do things. If you steal 1 hours worth of someones time, you essentially remove that 1 hour of time from their available resources. (Essentially the same as stealing 1 hours worth of wages in monetary terms) That sounds extreme, but if you could 'buy/sell time', wasting someones time would be deemed a crime. (Which really, it should. I'd someone steal 5 euro from me than waste an hour of my time, as I earn more than 5 euro an hour, that 5 euro is worth less to me than my time)

 

I'm rambling now and that was very poorly worded...

Edited by Nyjah
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I would argue that morals are on a societal/cultural level rather than a personal.

Also if stealing isn't going against your moral code, there can't be much left.  Other than physically harming someone, there isn't much else left. I would argue that theft is both emotional harm (distress caused, lack of feeling 'safe' etc) and also uhm...'time harm?'. By that, I mean you only have so much time in your life in which to do things. If you steal 1 hours worth of someones time, you essentially remove that 1 hour of time from their available resources. (Essentially the same as stealing 1 hours worth of wages in monetary terms) That sounds extreme, but if you could 'buy/sell time', wasting someones time would be deemed a crime. (Which really, it should. I'd someone steal 5 euro from me than waste an hour of my time, as I earn more than 5 euro an hour, that 5 euro is worth less to me than my time)

 

I'm rambling now and that was very poorly worded...

 

 

Of course there can group by laws and a moral code, but that doesn't mandate anyone actually has to have those morals or follow those laws.  Pirates and Priests would have very different moral codes, but each person can have higher or lower morals than the code suggests.

 

If someone is starving and has to steal to eat I don't see that as a bad thing to do.

 

If you steal something of a group you are at War with I don't see that as a bad thing to do.

 

So yes each person can have different personal morals depending on what the subject is about regardless of what society thinks.

Edited by Uberknot

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Of course there can group by laws and a moral code, but that doesn't mandate anyone actually has to have those morals or follow those laws.  Pirates and Priests would have very different moral codes, but each person can have higher or lower morals than the code suggests.

 

If someone is starving and has to steal to eat I don't see that as a bad thing to do.

 

If you steal something of a group you are at War with I don't see that as a bad thing to do.

 

So yes each person can have different personal morals depending on what the subject is about regardless of what society thinks.

 

My reasoning behind why I said they were cultural/group orientated is that I see them as unwritten agreements between two or more people.

 

Basically, if someone else doesn't agree to your moral standpoint, you are free to break it, as it is useless to have on your own. For example, like your war scenario. If someone is at war with you, feel free to steal from them as they would do the same to you.

However, if you're in a peacetime situation, like we are in the civilian western world, morals help us live together. If we both agree not to steal from each other, we both benefit. If we both agree not to murder each other, we can work together and benefit as a whole.

Having morals no one else follows is just going to be of detriment to you and make you worse off than the rest. (Assuming you get caught / your moral standpoint is known to others)

 

Just like in Wurm. If 5 people agree to live together and not steal/murder each other, they can survive and prosper with much greater success than if 1 of the 5 killed and looted the other 4. Sure, they would get a huge personal benefit instantly, but in the long run, they lose out.

Edited by Nyjah

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Personal view or rather my personal morals:


 


Its bad when on a pve server.


 


Its okay when on a pvp server, and the mere act of being on a pvp server gives consent to be killed, robbed, etc. Kill or be killed.


 


 


Granted morals can differ from what a society as a whole can consider ethical.


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