Should wurm be easier or more difficult

[Docshades 0]

This game is a GOOD Platform, But it lacks depth in many areas outside of crafting. For example sure you can make these large and impressive ships, but just about the only thing they are good for is transport, pvp on them seems like a cruel joke as you dont move, and it just seems like a pooly planned steering battle combined with who has the best bow skill. That sounds about as apealing as riding a hunk of down a waterfall, a bit harsh, but you get my drift.  All in all this game's market is the last thing to be focused on, pvp/pve need work, it feels like im playing and old final fantasy game when trying to fight, great for Nostalga maybe but when it comes down to it, it does not "cut the mustard" in terms of competing with other games. as far as gameplay goes, this would be a much better gameplay exp if you felt like the fighting was more than a click wait and hope the roll is in your favor, also, Boat warfare needs to live up to the name, perhaps sinnking boats, weapons you can put on boats, I wish we could have cannons but I know were not in that era so its hard to argue for them (perhaps a siege ship that has catapult's on it).  All in all, this game has a lot going for it, it's like a less capable, but more in depth and polished Minecraft (that has a time consuming twist).  I would like to see some custom buildings though. For Example: I wish I could use fencing for things well... other than just fencing.   I want to be able to (within reason) use the set recipies for more that just their designed uses, maybe make a house purly from stacking fencing on eachother, and putting tree's across it or well any combination of things.  I bet you'd find it startling to what people do with the current recipies if things like this "custom buildings" were possible

[Planck 22]

I have a view of wurm in which most people are both buyers and sellers.  Player A's consumption is player B's income.  Player B then turns around and buys things, creating income for Player C and so on.  That is how a healthy economy works. In RL most of us are sellers of labor and buyers of good/services.

 

A healthy economy in those real life terms is incompatible with any game such as this. It's based on extreme specialization, extreme economies of scale, and large capital barriers to entry. In other words, it relies on powerful reasons why the participants must buy things rather than make things themselves.

 

We don't want any of those in Wurm.

 

At best, we could aim to reduce the costs of trade to the point where the small comparative advantages that already exist can make regular trade worthwhile. However, that's never going to happen. The changes required are too fundamental, and opposed to the type of game that Wurm is designed to be.

[Planck 22]

So to take this to Wurm, If I or any other high end player wanted to take over the market for ...say hammers for example. Id do the same thing, Id buy all the existing inventory on the market, resell it for much lower than buy orders and simply crash the market. Everyone goes to greener pastures, if I hold the market in this crashed state for long enough, and when they are gone, I start selling again at a nice profit.

 

I don't think you thought that through.

 

Why do you think that a smith would ever stop producing hammers in this scenario? You're buying every hammer they make, at whatever price they ask, as soon as they put it up for sale. From the supplier point of view that's not a "market crash", it's a bonanza! That's not a sign to exit the market, it's a sign to empty your pocket of every copper you're willing to dump into this foolhardy scheme.

[Wargasm 1,928]

This isn't Eve.  Intergalactic space stations haven't been invented yet, nor has the magic auction house that allows your goods to be available in multiple places simultaneously.  Moving on...

 

In an existing game where there's already 90+ skilled players, it only hurts new players (and the economy) by making it harder to reach this 90 skill.  Adversely, it is unfair to players who have played so many years, clawed their way up the skill grind ladder, for a skill such as channeling to suddenly be made easier and now everyone sells enchants like they're planks and dirt.

 

Merchants are fine.  The economy is fine.  The difficulty of skilling is fine. 

[Cista 429]

This isn't Eve.  Intergalactic space stations haven't been invented yet, nor has the magic auction house that allows your goods to be available in multiple places simultaneously.  Moving on...

 

In an existing game where there's already 90+ skilled players, it only hurts new players (and the economy) by making it harder to reach this 90 skill.  Adversely, it is unfair to players who have played so many years, clawed their way up the skill grind ladder, for a skill such as channeling to suddenly be made easier and now everyone sells enchants like they're planks and dirt.

 

Merchants are fine.  The economy is fine.  The difficulty of skilling is fine. 

 

Items in EVE cannot appear in different locations than where they are placed, although you can see items that are for sale in the near vicinity. The auction house means 99% of trades are facilitated in game, whereas in Wurm most trade (of e.g. tools) are sold through the forum.

 

I love both games.

Having a Wurm Trader at the spawn points do double duty as local auctioneer, displaying goods for more than 1 person, would not seem more magic to me than the job he already does.

Getting the devs to code something workable like that, now that would indeed be magic 

Edited January 22, 2015 by Cista

[sunsvortex 599]

I don't think you thought that through.

 

Why do you think that a smith would ever stop producing hammers in this scenario? You're buying every hammer they make, at whatever price they ask, as soon as they put it up for sale. From the supplier point of view that's not a "market crash", it's a bonanza! That's not a sign to exit the market, it's a sign to empty your pocket of every copper you're willing to dump into this foolhardy scheme.

Because Im putting them back on the market for ridiculously low prices. Once the market is sufficiently saturated I stop buying. They then quit selling there, I dont care if they quit making them, just that they quit selling them. They can try to put them on the market, but Ill make sure that its not worth the time or effort. What your describing is the same thing I was, two people going at it with a battle of wallets. Its not a good thing.

 

Where as in EVE this strategy relies on PVP, in Wurm it would  rely on Dmg/decay. The point is to force oversupply. So if you buy the items right back at the new lower price, your inventory continues to get higher and higher, until everyone has an item, or the items start becoming more trouble than they are worth or someone says im out of money.

 

Now in EVE this works very well in null and low sec, not sure about high sec, which is why im still looking a things before I proceed. Eve has a very different setup clearly, but the concept would be the same, flood the market with item x till competitors move to greener grounds or move to a different item. It has worked in 4 other markets quite well so far, this is however my first run in high sec with the strategy, which is why im still looking it over. Much more difficult to achieve in high sec. But you have to love War Decs.

 

And the bottom line is this, the above was just an example of how it might be possible in Wurm, under a real trade system, to flood a market.(Not the only way) If we get a real trade system in, I can always prove it, unless of course controls are put in to stop it from happening.

Edited January 22, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Bachus 462]

Sunsvortex if you wanted to crush the market on 'hammers' it would be even easier now than it would be with an auction house.   You could simply buy every 'hammer' on the forum, but as Planck said it would not stop people from producing but encourage them to produce more.  Then when you resold the 'hammers' at a lower price you would be resetting the price of 'hammers' forever, much like when I started a 5 speed horse was 5 silver now you can get one for 1 silver or less.

I have seen this scheme tried in other games and rarely does it work for long.  People are encouraged to produce for skill not money and if they can get some money out of the things they make for skill then they will get as much or little as the market will allow and thus break the bank of the schemers.  In WoW I saw these schemers trends and profited from it myself by buying up their low priced merchandise and selling it when they had given up.

 

Also an auction house on each server in wurm would be a much greater time-sink than in WoW or other games due to the much longer travel times needed to stock each one.  As far as the buying end sure you could just have an alt on each server watch and buy for you but you would still need to travel to stock the auction items back up.  The current forum model everything would be sent to you and you could repost it later making it easier to take over.

 

So why has no one tried this before?

Answer they have and gave up.  Wurm producers are not in for just the money.  Thorgot for example has probably given away as many mallets as he has sold and he is not alone in this.  Wurm cannot be ruled by those just out for money because the players will break them.  If you ever did get a monopoly on ' hammers' then make them too expensive to buy the ones you shut out of the market would simply give their stuff away crushing your scheme.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Bachus

[Audrel 2,223]

Unlike on EVE, here I have to contend with QL. I have to make hundreds of items to even start to see a value for them. In EVE, once I know how to make a popular ammo round, that's it. I can churn out the exact same round by the thousands day in and day out. They never get better. They never get worse. As long as the ore costs less than the round, it's profit.

 

Here I can churn out hundreds of low QL arrows no one wants, not even myself, and imp them up until eventually someone will want them. I have to sit there and do it for hours on end. I don't drop them into a machine and go do an Incursion and make tons of money while my wares bake in an oven for me to pick up later. Also, in EVE, people will jump 20 systems to save a buck. Of course, you always have the instant gratification people that you can depend on to pay double so they don't have to bothered by visiting a hub. But in Wurm, I doubt they will sail from Chaos to Release to save a couple coppers on arrows. For one, it would take too long to get here by boat where 40 jumps is not much at all in EVE. I would regularly go back and forth between Dodixie and Hek or Rens. You can make a nice income buying things that are cheap in Dodixie and not so cheap in Hek, do the same in Hek and turn around and go back. Of course, there is more risk but compared to the safe arrivals and that popped transports are few and far between, you make good on the money.

[Cista 429]

 But in Wurm, I doubt they will sail from Chaos to Release to save a couple coppers on arrows. 

 

Buyers would not, but traders would, something that Wurm has never seen, but which as you know is a huge profession in EVE.

Traders would facilitate trade for everyone, making sure every regional auction house / trading station was worth visiting for the local consumers.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Cista

[sunsvortex 599]

Sunsvortex if you wanted to crush the market on 'hammers' it would be even easier now than it would be with an auction house.   You could simply buy every 'hammer' on the forum, but as Planck said it would not stop people from producing but encourage them to produce more.  Then when you resold the 'hammers' at a lower price you would be resetting the price of 'hammers' forever, much like when I started a 5 speed horse was 5 silver now you can get one for 1 silver or less.

I have seen this scheme tried in other games and rarely does it work for long.  People are encouraged to produce for skill not money and if they can get some money out of the things they make for skill then they will get as much or little as the market will allow and thus break the bank of the schemers.  In WoW I saw these schemers trends and profited from it myself by buying up their low priced merchandise and selling it when they had given up. (Would my example work in Wurm exactly the way it works in EVE?..no...too many differences. Could I go to the forums and buy up all the hammers? yes, would this saturate the market if I put them all back on the market for really low prices? maybe, probably not. The process is too slow and not everyone uses the forums to buy hammers. The current trade system, as is, is not all inclusive by a very long shot. Im not against having an auction house, I put it in my post on suggestions as an item that would ultimately be needed. I just simply do not care for a mail order system. If we had a mail order system then it gets crazy how fast one can crash a market.)

 

Also an auction house on each server in wurm would be a much greater time-sink than in WoW or other games due to the much longer travel times needed to stock each one.  As far as the buying end sure you could just have an alt on each server watch and buy for you but you would still need to travel to stock the auction items back up.  The current forum model everything would be sent to you and you could repost it later making it easier to take over.

 

So why has no one tried this before?

Answer they have and gave up.  Wurm producers are not in for just the money.  Thorgot for example has probably given away as many mallets as he has sold and he is not alone in this.  Wurm cannot be ruled by those just out for money because the players will break them.  If you ever did get a monopoly on ' hammers' then make them too expensive to buy the ones you shut out of the market would simply give their stuff away crushing your scheme. (Again a battle of wallets, do you want to spend your time in game making stuff to give away or do you want to spend your time doing the things you want to do? Time is money,)

Here is the thing - nearly everyone has agreed that to one extent or the other that the market..as is...has seen deflation. Lots of rationales were given, but it all comes back to only a handfull of reasons, most of which, if not all, can be rolled into oversupply. If the market can oversupply naturally, then it can be forced to do so. Exactly how that happens is up to the game mechanics, are there sufficient controls in place to prevent it?, Is trying to forcefully oversupply enough of an irritant to defuse such activity? All just depends on exactly how the system is setup. By simply having AH's, does this prevent a forced oversupply / price crash, nope, makes it a bit easier to do -See Archeage and the Thunderstruck Tree/log debacle. Its a prime example of how an AH with a mail order system can completely gut a market in literally hours and it has never recovered. See Archeage - Trading system where trade packs that were selling for 130% of base price fall to 70% of base price due to oversupply and an AH tied to a mail order system.

 

Plenty of examples out there of an Auction House tied to a mail order system that do nothing to stop market crashes, intentional and unintentional.

Edited January 22, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Audrel 2,223]

I dunno... two days there and two days back to maybe sell 1 or 2 items a week if it's a major trade zone. If they could develop a system where you stock a merchant with large and small crates and bulk goods and can set a price per crate and the merchant dispense the crate with the good onto the ground for loading, I might, but that is a long way to sail having to make a price per arrow with a limit of 50 in stock. If I stocked 50 mallets, I would never have to go back again and it would stay stocked. We also can't manage prices across servers (system in EVE) no matter our skill or know that we even sold something without going there. This type of system is just not possible in Wurm without major programming and I really don't think a mirrored auction house is in anyone's best interests other than the long-time players with the highest skills. I could be wrong, but...

[sunsvortex 599]

Unlike on EVE, here I have to contend with QL. I have to make hundreds of items to even start to see a value for them. In EVE, once I know how to make a popular ammo round, that's it. I can churn out the exact same round by the thousands day in and day out. They never get better. They never get worse. As long as the ore costs less than the round, it's profit.

 

Here I can churn out hundreds of low QL arrows no one wants, not even myself, and imp them up until eventually someone will want them. I have to sit there and do it for hours on end. I don't drop them into a machine and go do an Incursion and make tons of money while my wares bake in an oven for me to pick up later. Also, in EVE, people will jump 20 systems to save a buck. Of course, you always have the instant gratification people that you can depend on to pay double so they don't have to bothered by visiting a hub. But in Wurm, I doubt they will sail from Chaos to Release to save a couple coppers on arrows. For one, it would take too long to get here by boat where 40 jumps is not much at all in EVE. I would regularly go back and forth between Dodixie and Hek or Rens. You can make a nice income buying things that are cheap in Dodixie and not so cheap in Hek, do the same in Hek and turn around and go back. Of course, there is more risk but compared to the safe arrivals and that popped transports are few and far between, you make good on the money.

Lots of good points here -I think the big thing your pointing at is the Combo 1&2 sinks. They are not efficient enough and that EVE's big sink is PVP and to some degree mission runners. Something has to go boom in order to take things out of the game. This is one of the reasons I had put in tie ins to pvp. Am i suggesting that we do this to the level that EVE does..NO...NOT AT ALL. But a few tie ins would be helpful in some areas. Specifically arrows. This is also an area where the OP's suggestion of using specialization could come into play, assuming a setup something like that of priests.

[Cista 429]

We also can't manage prices across servers (system in EVE) no matter our skill or know that we even sold something without going there. 

But I have heard that some players in Wurm have alts

 

Anyways, I know quite a few people that would be all over a transport-and-trade system in Wurm, providing local residents with a great local marketplace if it was made possible by the devs.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Cista

[Audrel 2,223]

In some ways, the system is much easier here for the creator. In EVE, you either have to go into Null at some point to get materials or buy from someone who does. Risk skyrockets. So do profits. When you reach this point, you are supplying literally all sides of the things going pop.

 

In Wurm, you may have all the resources you need a couple steps apart, on your deed, safe (on PvE anyway). The risk can be 0 and the profits nothing more than based on time.

 

In essence, it's possible to eliminate most risk here where you can't there. But that also means everyone can do it. In EVE, it would be a death warrant for me to go into Null for parts. I'm just not that good.

[Audrel 2,223]

But I have heard that some players in Wurm have alts

 

Anyways, I know quite a few people that would be all over a transport-and-trade system in Wurm, providing local residents with a great local marketplace if it was made possible by the devs.

 

Good point. :-P My alt is my priest who stays chained to an ore vein until I need her to cast something. LOL

[sunsvortex 599]

I dunno... two days there and two days back to maybe sell 1 or 2 items a week if it's a major trade zone. If they could develop a system where you stock a merchant with large and small crates and bulk goods and can set a price per crate and the merchant dispense the crate with the good onto the ground for loading, I might, but that is a long way to sail having to make a price per arrow with a limit of 50 in stock. If I stocked 50 mallets, I would never have to go back again and it would stay stocked.(Yes travel needs worked on, this is clear) We also can't manage prices across servers (system in EVE) no matter our skill or know that we even sold something without going there.(Yes we do know that something has been sold via wallet transactions (EVE) would be same in Wurm as youll recieve payment via mail system) This type of system is just not possible in Wurm without major programming and I really don't think a mirrored auction house is in anyone's best interests other than the long-time players with the highest skills. I could be wrong, but...

Just a couple things for clarity. ^

As long as trade is not tied directly to a mail order system AH's are fine, and would be something thats needed in the end to help with top end items, rares and such from having a standard pricing.

 

We can go in for a start with a player driven model with only buy and sell to look and see what happens.make it just for bulk items just for a live test. After the initial implementation lots of things should be red neon sign obvious. So little steps at a time. Make sure that everything is going to work and then implement another part, say Buy Orders, AH and individual item sales. Watch it and see what happens, yet another set of red neon sign issues/successes should be visible. Then go in and do some PVP tie ins, add further logic to cross server trade, ect ect ect. Just little bits at a time.

[Ayes 3,715]

Lower prices for items within Wurm (so called deflation) is bad for the seller and good for the purchaser. When more producers enter the market the price for items is lowered due to their competition, good for the purchaser. Eventually a stable price range is reached, which I believe is the current situation within Wurm.

 

Any suggestions made that will restrict the purchasing of items freely will benefit the sellers, not the purchasers. Travel times to make purchases have a great effect and will benefit the sellers of these items, be they within local marketplaces, trade hubs or whatever. These types of ideas are set up and endorsed by (some of) those who sell these items, as are making the mailing system less effective and increasing travel times through various impediments.

 

The ploy is shallow here, even with this OP post title suggesting that it is about making Wurm "easier" or not, to inject a bias against those who would oppose these shadowed suggestions as players who want the game to be easy mode. Instituting impediments to fast and easy purchasing of items only benefits the sellers of these items, not the game as a whole. Too much covered rubbish talk within this thread to obscure this intent.

 

=Ayes=

[sunsvortex 599]

The only "ploy" I have seen in any of this is your incessant Anti pvp crusade. Enough already, really.

[Ayes 3,715]

The only "ploy" I have seen in any of this is your incessant Anti pvp crusade. Enough already, really.

 

My post that you have responded to above yours makes some references to pvp? Normally you at least make your counterpoints on a rational basis, responding to the content within the post of the other person. Sorry to see you have degenerated to this level of nonsense out of frustration but at least it reveals your attachments to those who have used this reference in other posts concerning that topic.

 

=Ayes=