Should wurm be easier or more difficult

[sunsvortex 599]

A far more effect way of figuring out why people don't trade would be to ask them. For example:

 

 

If you don't trade often explain your opinion, in 50 words or less, on why you don't. We don't need to hear your solutions to any problem.

 

!Note! no arguing will be allowed. Do not quote other people and try to explain why they are wrong.

 

 

Something like that should provide a large number of reason why players don't trade and then the dev's can address the most common issues.

IM not really looking for why people dont trade, they dont trade because they dont want to, perfectly fine. I dont need or want an explanation. If its not someones interest its not someones interest. No one is suggesting to force anything on anyone...

Edited January 8, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Ayes 3,715]

Ayes:  I was wrong about you spouting a monologue.  I thought you did not read what i said, it appears you did but just perceived me to be deceitful in my intentions- fair enough.

EDIT:  Dont let my wurm name give you the wrong impression, i can see how that could be easy.  After years of Econ courses and extra reading, I am no longer a Chicago/Austrian type economist.

 

1.  The entire purpose of this thread is to take into consideration the ramifications upon the whole game, specifically how easier play results in more solo play and less player interaction.

2.  IF the game reverted back to difficulty levels similar to 2009, things will necessarily become more time consuming IF you choose to solo play.  Things will become more expensive IF you choose to only buy and not sell.  These are TRADEOFFS that you will be faced with.  Sure, it would be nice in the short term if there were less tradeoffs and we just got everything we wanted, but that would make a dull long term game.

3.  I fully believe more incentives to interact and cooperate with others will contribute to the long term enjoyment.  Too many players have joined and fallen in love with wurm, only to become bored after 6 months once their deed was done.  It is interaction with other players that will keep more of these players around longer.

 

It seems to me you view 3 types of wurmians: 1. Sellers, 2. Buyers, 3. Those who do not participate in market transactions.

This view is very zero-sum, in that any benefits to sellers automatically equates to an equal loss by buyers.

I see 4 types of wurmians: 1.Net Sellers (profit seekers), 2. Net Buyers (sugar daddies), Neutral profit (Sells what they can, buys what they can), Off The Grid (does not participate in the market economy).

 

It is my opinion that many of wurms players are in between Net Sellers and Net Buyers, in that their main motivation for selling items is to turn around and buy items.  IF this is the case, then helping out sellers will not automatically "be to the detriment of those majority of the player base"

I could be wrong about the make up the player base, and that it is comprised of mostly profit seekers and sugar daddies.  My intuition and experience say otherwise.

 

Having lived much of my Wurm lifetime within the vicinity of new player concentrations, I have enjoyed observing their behavior. I have seen them come and go. I have seen players that have stuck around longer than others. I have seen what they spend their time doing. Very few of these have ever focused upon crafting with the intent of selling anything that they would be able to sell in the future when their skills were higher. The interest in this sort of goal was never there. From this my opinion has formed that those who play the game with the intent to craft items to sell for profits are a very minor portion of the player base.

 

This is to the advantage of those who do focus on selling their created items to others, since those who purchase these items are happy to do so if the prices are reasonable, as in the end to them the cost translates into RL monies, since they have no intent to make money from playing the game. The myth here seems to me to be a fear of the crafters for profit that everyone wants in on their action. Simply not true, far from it.

 

So whenever I read posts about stimulating the economy, making crafting more viable, stabilizing crafted item prices or encouraging trade, I know immediately who will profit and who will be paying the price for it. With this in mind I see attempts to build in obsolesce into crafted items as benefiting the crafters at the expense of the purchasers, no matter in what way they are shaded to conceal the intent. Possibly in making these types of suggestions the person doing so does not even realize this is the end result, as they somehow see this as benefiting the Wurm "economy".

 

Then trying to "socialize" others to benefit "trade" or supposedly the game, it again becomes clear to me who the benefits are intended to go towards. If players want to socialize with others they will do so, if not they won't. This is both a personality trait and a preference of how a person wants to spend their time within this diversion from RL constraints. The game mechanics work against any socialization anyway, with their excessive travel times that discourage this. This should be the focus of any concepts that advocate for increased social activity, not item sales or purchases, which process should only be made easier.

 

I see a lot of backwards thinking here when it comes to encouraging "trade". It translates more into how can some crafters continue to make more profits through mechanics that will put players into the situation where they will have to repurchase these items over time, again and again. Paying out additional money to play the game for high quality enchanted tools once is enough for me, thanks. Well, since I have 3 premium guys, make that 3 times.

 

=Ayes=

[Nappy 1,369]

I have been reading this thead with great interest. A few thoughts.

 

1) Why not introduce some form of graduated skill offset buff. Could be time based or skill based or number of skills at a level based. Works like the newby eating buff but for a longer time period.

 

So say you go to build your first house. The buff makes it easier however not too easy. As your skills progress the buff eats away and eventually you have the standard difficulty and from there you increase skill like normal.

 

The ending point for this could be time based (lasts for 30 playertime days, could degrade per action (completely gone at 5,000 actions), number of x skill levels achieved (after person reaches 5 skills at level 30 the buff disappears) or could be even based on achievements (built their second building, or first boat or 10th farm harvest session)

 

2) Love the specialization idea of choosing an area to specialize in, knowing that it helps in specific area but makes other areas harder or even impossible to achieve later. Perhaps an option once certain basic skill levels are obtained or once you have level 30 skills in a certain area

 

3) Would love to have a purpose for the boats I build - so like concept of doing some inter-island trading where I pick up stuff at one place cheap and sell it elsewhere to make a bit

 

4) Increased boat/cart/wagon decay would add to difficulty a bit and provide a purpose for players who have the required skills. Would also make those skills more practical use rather then just grinding

 

5) Love the idea of a hard core survival server for those who want to participate on it - perhaps you randomly spawn to somewhere on the island with nothing on you at all and see what happens. I am crazy enough to sign up for that. Increased mob danger as levels increase or something so that it's not just hard at the beginning only. Make it feel like a real struggle to survive with a taste of optimistic forecast of eventually "winning" when life becomes comfortable

[Tinkerer 107]

I have been reading this thead with great interest. A few thoughts.

 

1) Why not introduce some form of graduated skill offset buff. Could be time based or skill based or number of skills at a level based. Works like the newby eating buff but for a longer time period.

 

So say you go to build your first house. The buff makes it easier however not too easy. As your skills progress the buff eats away and eventually you have the standard difficulty and from there you increase skill like normal.

 

The ending point for this could be time based (lasts for 30 playertime days, could degrade per action (completely gone at 5,000 actions), number of x skill levels achieved (after person reaches 5 skills at level 30 the buff disappears) or could be even based on achievements (built their second building, or first boat or 10th farm harvest session)

 

 

The problem with this, is that it can confuse the new player. They know their skills are going up, but because of the buff there is no feedback to the player as to the effect of increasing skills - yes, it makes things easier, but the diminishing buff counters it, by slowly making things more difficult. Nett result until the buff is completely used up, there is almost no perceivable difference in skilling up.

 

If you instead just had it 'çut off' after a time period, then the players instead experience a sudden and confusing jump in difficulty.

 

 

@Ayes:

 

I've never sold anything in Wurm, but have often purchased. However, I find the system of finding what you want, trying to find out a reasonable value for something (to see if you are being royally ripped off or not), and even purchasing said items a real hassle. Checking on countless merchants, refering to forums or chat, marking down prices, to try and compare here and there, then trying to locate the merchant you had previously seen something up for consideration on.. its a tedious hassle that really deters one from bothering to purchase unless its really urgent - or you have nothing better to do with your time.

 

This,I believe then has the knock on effect of making selling via merchants less profitable for the sellers, meaning more and more merchants end up with empty stocks, making it even less interesting for the buyers... and so on.

 

I don't care if the sellers are making real money... they are saving me (and others) frustrations of failures, or time I (we) don't have.So I'd love to see a 'one-stop' location (per market hub) where I can browse and compare everything, and easily choose what I want to buy.  Nothing really changes for the sellers, except that they have to set their prices to be competitive (as I can now see other prices in the same UI), however, it should encourage more buyers to actually buy.

 

'buy orders' and 'sell orders' take this not only a step further, but also allow for a new playstyle of being a market trader, or delivery man. Many have tried this in the past, but the game itself provides no support for it, and it is heavily dependent upon actually chatting with the people involved.Thus most attempts ended up drifting into oblivion and being forgotten failed ventures.

[Nappy 1,369]

What if the buff was on a curve? So has more impact at first, way less at end - achieves the goal of avoiding the sudden jump in difficulty.

[eyerobot 202]

The questions are made irrelevant by the fact that this game lacks entertainment.  That alone is the reason that we have so few players.

If this game was designed properly, There would be an overflow of players regardless of the difficulty level.  And the economy would would also boost from it.  This is the reason that you can go to any forum anywhere, That has former wurm players in it.  And they will refer to this game as Workonline.  It's just not designed to be fun. 

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

I dont know what mushrooms you ate son, but please give me some.

Hard "well not as hard as you ppl belive" - Freedom , chaos

Middle - Epic

Walk in the park easy - Challenge

What more do you want? Maybe some more servers? You want maybe a server where you do 1 action and you get 100 skill in that? Wow, what mode is that? supermode?

Whats with you people and your quest for instant gratification, maybe its the way society is today and the way of the youths. But it doesnt work like that in real Life. Better remember this or else you will get butthurt!

Freedom hard and epic middle, seriously? No valrei mobs on freedom and no players that can rob/kill you.

[Audrel 2,223]

Freedom hard and epic middle, seriously? No valrei mobs on freedom and no players that can rob/kill you.

 

I might tend to disagree with the rob part but Freedom is not as hard as Chaos I would imagine just for what you said... valrei mobs.

[Propheteer 7,139]

People misunderstand difficult.

 

It should be made difficult, but it should be made difficult in a way that isn't completely unintuitive.

 

Look at catapulting, for example.

Catapulting at its core is easy, however, its difficult because you have to get carpal tunnel to get anything done because for one shot, you have to click about 20 times.

 

Now look at loading a wagon from a BSB.

 

Its difficult, because you have to drag about 30 times per crate. But it should be easy.

 

 

The difficulty should not come from being unintuitive, it should come from depth of the game.

 

People don't realize that.

[Othob Rithol 700]

That was what I was trying to get at comparing difficult-by-design and difficult-by-poor-design. Wurm needs more of the prior and less of the latter.

[joedobo 1,187]

IM not really looking for why people dont trade, they dont trade because they dont want to, perfectly fine. I dont need or want an explanation. If its not someones interest its not someones interest. No one is suggesting to force anything on anyone...

 

I belive its a better idea to collect the opinions of a large number of player and decide what should be done base on that. Listening to a single player is a bad idea and always will be a bad idea.

 

 

I also believe a lot of people do want to trade but the don't because of some reason. If where where to ask the populus why they don't trade I'd expect to see these come up often:

 

1. The whole process of buyers and sellers figuring what each party has to offer is very time consuming and difficult.

 

2. The effort to move goods between parties, especially when you factor in different play times, is too difficult.

 

3. I can harvest and craft anything I want, why would I bother with trading?

[Redd 4,281]

when i played challenge the biggest issue i had was the skill gain. It was way too easy and gave no sense of achievement. 

[sunsvortex 599]

I belive its a better idea to collect the opinions of a large number of player and decide what should be done base on that. Listening to a single player is a bad idea and always will be a bad idea.

 

No one is suggesting anyone listen to anything except the rest of the industry. You really might want to read things before you post.

[Audrel 2,223]

No one is suggesting anyone listen to anything except the rest of the industry. You really might want to read things before you post.

 

Not really. What works in Game X might not work here. If players come here because it's exactly NOT Game X and they implement Game X here, then...

 

The problem already is you have the same game 1000 times with a different name and insert a new model for a monster over a cookie cutter story. Age of Empires anyone? The industry is still churning out the exact same game in a mind blowing array of different looking buildings.

[sunsvortex 599]

Not really. What works in Game X might not work here. If players come here because it's exactly NOT Game X and they implement Game X here, then...

 

The problem already is you have the same game 1000 times with a different name and insert a new model for a monster over a cookie cutter story. Age of Empires anyone? The industry is still churning out the exact same game in a mind blowing array of different looking buildings.

 All successful MMO's have the same 3 foundational pillars PVE TRADE PVP. We have tried being "different" from the rest of the crowd for 10 years now. Hows that working out? The numbers say...not so well.

 

Of those 3 pillars Wurm has the following

 

PVE (1)

Trade (.5)

PVP (0)

 

Its half a game according to that. Hmm wonder if we would get and retain new players if we had the other half? So its good they are working on challenge/storm. Hopefully they find a good combination thats popular. But after that we need a trade system, if for no other reason than to address most of the issues listed in this thread.

Edited January 10, 2015 by sunsvortex

[Audrel 2,223]

 All successful MMO's have the same 3 foundational pillars PVE TRADE PVP. We have tried being "different" from the rest of the crowd for 10 years now. Hows that working out? The numbers say...not so well.

 

I play Wurm. Not World of Wurmcraft. Not Lord of the Wurms Online. If I wanted a game in the same cookie cutter as them, I would just play them. Being different is not a bad thing. That being said, an actual in-game Auction House at spawn would be nice. The numbers though are a bit of a problem. We have the low numbers because we are different. It seems cookies cut from the same cutter with different icing are very popular. That doesn't make them special.

[sunsvortex 599]

I play Wurm. Not World of Wurmcraft. Not Lord of the Wurms Online. If I wanted a game in the same cookie cutter as them, I would just play them. Being different is not a bad thing. That being said, an actual in-game Auction House at spawn would be nice. The numbers though are a bit of a problem. We have the low numbers because we are different. It seems cookies cut from the same cutter with different icing are very popular. That doesn't make them special.

If I take a wire frame, planks and some paper machete  I can make anything i want. For instance I can make a 7 foot replica of the statue of liberty or I can make a life size version of the pyramids of Egypt. Both those are made from the same foundation materials, yet in fact they are very different from one another. If I build a shack out in the woods, then go to a gated community and build a magnificent mansion, they are both built using the same materials yet are very different from one another. EVE online and Archeage are both built using the same 3 foundations but are very different (Pure sandbox and pseudo sandbox).

 

Using the same successful foundations doesnt mean being cookie cutter.

[joedobo 1,187]

Audrel, Thanks for stepping up and reminding Sunsvortex that his personal opinions may not be best.

 

Again, the best way to understand why Wurm folks don't trade is to ask them. Then, once we got a large collection of opinions on this we can actually suggest some solution to improve trade. Trying to mimic other games, games that don't work like wurm at all, isn't a good idea. What is a good idea is understanding your player base and making changes to improve the experiences that the majority wants.

 

I find it interesting that Minecraft doesn't make it on Sun's list of similar games. It is more successful then all of the games he mentioned combined. It is very much like Wurm. Heck many oldschool Wurminians even think that Notch basicly make the "Wurmonline-like" game that he wanted to make in the first place but couldn't because of Rolf.

[Othob Rithol 700]

Pot, meet kettle.

 

Every post here is opinion, just some of them have something to back them up.

 

Now I don't agree completely with the complexity of what Sun has suggested, but there are elements there that would improve them game. Try discussing the specifics of his suggestion in that thread and object to the parts you don't like.

 

It'll be a helluva lot more productive than this foolish bickering over whose opinion smells better.

[hankrearden 144]

Been some good reasons why at least item loss would be bad for the game overall, i might have to agree now.  I would imagine any type of solution would need to focus around something that feels positive.  The problem is that this usually involves adding a new mechanic into the game making the devs more reluctant to even consider.  I think minecraft was not mentioned because it isnt an mmo. 

[Audrel 2,223]

If we are solely discussing trade then yeah, it's severely lacking here in a traditional MMO sense but it is a bit more realistic. I can get things mail order IRL but if I want to buy a car (cart/boat/wagon), it generally is not delivered to my door in a box. That being said, I don't go to other countries (servers) to pick up an oven either. LOL

 

So it's all relative and still subjective. It is opinion, no two ways about it.

[hankrearden 144]

I really don't think forum browsing mail order is the best model for trade on this game.  I can imagine it turns a lot of people off from this game.  Only thing i could think of to fix that is maybe double mail fees, make merchant contracts super cheap (1s?), and find a way to store enchants in a gem.  Storing enchants would help because the extra mail fee would be too harsh on re-imps.  Instead suck the enchants into a gem and apply to a fresh new tool you can find at the market.  A type of searchable database for merchants like others have suggested would be good.  First two things should be really easy for devs.  Enchant storing would have to be worked out/coded in, and a searchable database could be worked on for future implementation. 

[Ayes 3,715]

I really don't think forum browsing mail order is the best model for trade on this game.  I can imagine it turns a lot of people off from this game.  Only thing i could think of to fix that is maybe double mail fees, make merchant contracts super cheap (1s?), and find a way to store enchants in a gem.  Storing enchants would help because the extra mail fee would be too harsh on re-imps.  Instead suck the enchants into a gem and apply to a fresh new tool you can find at the market.  A type of searchable database for merchants like others have suggested would be good.  First two things should be really easy for devs.  Enchant storing would have to be worked out/coded in, and a searchable database could be worked on for future implementation. 

 

I have to disagree with you here. Just look at what has happened to weapon sales since they have been reintroduced into the mailing system without restriction. They have dramatically increased, as well as sending them off for imping purposes. Also other previously un-mailable items such as rakes, shovels, etc are now being purchased eagerly by others. This convenience has benefited both parties involved, the crafter and the purchaser, eliminating the need to travel to handle them over and also the logistics of personal contact.

 

Raising the mailing fee in an attempt to make players travel to local markets or points beyond just puts players back into the previous restrictive manner for this process. It is even worse, since then the price is jacked up for mailing all items, not just the previous un-mailable items. Structuring the game so as to make players use up more of their enjoyable game time just to obtain desired items makes little sense to me. There has always been the option for face to face purchases, if that is what players desire.

 

I really don't see it as a positive objective to attempt to put in place game mechanics that will penalize other players who want to make trades in a faster manner and get on to using the objects that they have purchased. The mailing system facilitates this ability for faster trades and that is why it is as popular feature as it has shown itself to be. Again it comes down to the choice players have made to purchase by mail and not travel to Merchants to purchase items. The results are already in as to it being the preference.

 

=Ayes=

[ShadowRonin 407]

I really don't think forum browsing mail order is the best model for trade on this game.  I can imagine it turns a lot of people off from this game.  Only thing i could think of to fix that is maybe double mail fees, make merchant contracts super cheap (1s?), and find a way to store enchants in a gem.  Storing enchants would help because the extra mail fee would be too harsh on re-imps.  Instead suck the enchants into a gem and apply to a fresh new tool you can find at the market.  A type of searchable database for merchants like others have suggested would be good.  First two things should be really easy for devs.  Enchant storing would have to be worked out/coded in, and a searchable database could be worked on for future implementation. 

 

I've had the thought about storing enchants on gems before, the problem with that is it makes it way too easy to create skiller tools without a chance of failure.  Raising the mail cost probably wouldn't accomplish much, I think anyone willing to spend a decent amount of money to buy the item and have it mailed will probably fork over the extra coins, thus removing them from the economy all together.

 

What you see in Wurm parallels what a lot of businesses are dealing with in real life right now.  The price of entertainment is at an all time low, everybody streams or downloads content for a flat fee (if they bother paying at all).  They've sort of conceded the fight, as it's one that would be ridiculously hard to win, and instead have altered their business models.  Perhaps those set in their ways who care about the economy in Wurm need to adapt and do something similar.  I'd honestly have no idea how to go about spearheading that, but I know whoever figures it out will stand to do better business than most of us.

Edited January 12, 2015 by ShadowRonin

[Othob Rithol 700]

I'd think that an alternate to making mailing more expensive would be to develop some sort of point to point trade network similar to what Sun has been posting about. The key point being that the sender can convert the item into a generic cargo (via an item or npc) and another player can transport the item to a point near the receiver, where only the designated receiver can collect the item.

 

This sort of transport, because of it's slower speed and lower reliability, would not warrant as high of a fee as mailing. Patient players could, and would, choose to use this method to save money just the same as ordering online and accepting slower, but cheap or even free, shipping.

 

The mechanics involved, in my opinion, are best implemented as part of a fixed trade post system, where the system itself generates 'transport cargo to X' missions based on its own internal calculations to deliver person-to-person shipments, fulfill buy orders placed at other trade posts and/or to attempt to diffuse goods through the system. Transporters receive a high decay 'cargo' item that they receive a payment based on how quickly it is delivered. Loss or theft would not be possible since the goods only move from post to post and only when the 'cargo' is redeemed at destination.

 

Such as system would, of course, include a browsable inventory of goods for sale and their prices plus delivery costs, replacing the forum portion of the mail order. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by Othob Rithol