Constructive Discussion on Shield of the Gone

[Horsch 151]

Here's my practical evidence:

 

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh95P02yeaA

 

First kill - almost 45 seconds to kill a CRASHED player with shield of the gone while overcrowded. That's absurd.

 

i also see mainly people with swords attacking a player with scale...

 

swords = crap.

 

i do however see a few big hits too, so, he is still taking big amounts of dmg as well.

 

that's evidence that sword sucks vs scale, which everyone already knows.

 

get better weapons for those guys. kthxbai.

[Kagrenac 812]

i also see mainly people with swords attacking a player with scale...

 

swords = crap.

 

i do however see a few big hits too, so, he is still taking big amounts of dmg as well.

 

that's evidence that sword sucks vs scale, which everyone already knows.

 

get better weapons for those guys. kthxbai.

Except scale is weakest to cutting, which is half of what swords do.

 

Do you expect everyone to carry around axes to switch to whenever they fight someone with scale?

[Qaay 100]

This entire thread is like a bunch of politicians voting themselves pay raises versus the taxpayers. The common sense answer is obvious, but half of the whole is in denial. 

 

Yup, politicans always want to rob taxpayers of their money or whatever they worked for, using old slogans like "social justice", "solidarity", "equal chances" etc... Just like nerf callers on this forum... fortunatelly enough taxpayers here can say "NO".

 

While we're making self-serving arguments, I'd like all servers but JKH to have the CR nerf removed, only JKH gets the ore cap removed, I'd like GMs to spawn me several million dirt to cover the western border, I'd also like enough bricks and mortar to put longhouses on that dirt, then GM protection on the houses to prevent decay and bashing. There would still be one open spot in the north west to allow crossing near the JKE side.

 

This would make a lot of people join JK because we would have vastly superior defenses given to us by the game. There would be no reason to join other kingdoms because they would be vulnerable while JK would be extremely well defended (but not entirely invincible). People would be safe here, and they could leave to PvP elsewhere if they wanted to. The only people who would join MR, BL, or a PMK would be those who want the challenge of being at a severe disadvantage, which would be very few in number.

 

Does this sound like gone yet? Change the kingdom to BL, MR, or TK, it really doesn't matter. It's still broken regardless. Yeah, this is exaggerated, but I tried to get some critical thinking going here.

No it doesnt... i require hell a lot of "intelectual acrobatics" to to be even remotely comparable... How something which is given to some specific group of players can be compared to something every player can aquire thru individual work?

 

 

Strong arguments? It clearly is unbalanced (according to the definition of unbalanced), which right off the bat suggests a change. It is the single best ability, has no counters, leaves all but one other option useless (that one is still inferior). There is no argument for the other side.

 

I think people are missing how opinions don't overrule facts. "I died using it" isn't an argument at all. It doesn't make you invincible, and if it did it would be overpowered. The logic (or lack thereof) here is that its not overpowered unless it makes you invincible, which is wrong. I honestly can't understand why you are arguing with experienced game designers (David Sirlin) about this kind of stuff, then telling me I don't know anything about this and facts need to be presented. That's just hypocritical.

 

You can't use "I have a right to my opinion" in a thread that needs facts. You can't base a balance change off of what players think, because as stated most are only in it for themselves. The only good thing gone does is mitigate abuse of other overpowered mechanics (artifacts and damage buff stacking), which also need a change (which won't happen because your kingdom is stone walling that the same as they are this). You can't use one broken feature to compensate for another. Broken mechanics need to be fixed properly. 

 

According prolly to your definition of ballance or your "balance guru" - tabletop game producer, totally unknown in sandbox community whose "multiplayer" experience is limited to 1vs1 fighting games. Wurm is not 5v5 arena game with gearscore/elo matchmaking system and never will be, go play any other sandbox game on the market and maybe you will learn something about this genere. Sorry, but lookin at lame analogies you wrote above, i dont think you are competent enough to talk about logic or common sense.

[Fooligun 591]

I see so many people having a go and the OP because they think his ideas are dumbfounded, yet have yet to show where the sense in providing such a buff that has such minimal disadvantages is beneficial to the game?

A game with good balance means you have people trying every combination and it works in some situations but there are counters, that's for every single game and not excluded for wurm

And those saying nothing is wrong, more than half atm (close as it may be) disagree with you, just few have the patience to try and argue with your dumbfounded view nothing should change as getting the double health bonus is "available to everyone so is fair" does not mean it isn't OP.

I suggest a 50% damage reduction to melle attacks (useful for PVE) but a 200% increase in ranged/spell damage, or there abouts, advantages and disadvantages

[SotG_is_OP 357]

but i guarantee at least half of the people that voted no change do not have sotg

 

So they're supposed to waste a year and a half to get it so they can be knowledgeable enough to talk about it (in your eyes) just to get it nerfed? I'm pretty sure you don't have it, so what makes it acceptable for you to post here and not me? The hypocrisy here is staggering.

 

I guarantee most of the people that wanted light of fo, tentacles, BL spell spam, land of the dead, artifacts, and literally every other broken feature nerfed did not have it at that time. 

 

In regard to the completely invalid "everyone can get it so it's not OP" argument: 

 

Everyone could get level 7 path of love. Everyone could put enchanted olive trees on their dirt walls. Everyone could have invincible dirt walls. Their deeds could still be raided and weren't invincible, it just wasn't favorable for attackers because going through mine entrances is generally a bad idea and tends to get you trapped or killed. Anyone can get anything in this game given enough time or effort.

Yup, politicans always want to rob taxpayers of their money or whatever they worked for, using old slogans like "social justice", "solidarity", "equal chances" etc... Just like nerf callers on this forum... fortunatelly enough taxpayers here can say "NO".

 

No it doesnt... i require hell a lot of "intelectual acrobatics" to to be even remotely comparable... How something which is given to some specific group of players can be compared to something every player can aquire thru individual work?

 

 

 

According prolly to your definition of ballance or your "balance guru" - tabletop game producer, totally unknown in sandbox community whose "multiplayer" experience is limited to 1vs1 fighting games. Wurm is not 5v5 arena game with gearscore/elo matchmaking system and never will be, go play any other sandbox game on the market and maybe you will learn something about this genere. Sorry, but lookin at lame analogies you wrote above, i dont think you are competent enough to talk about logic or common sense.

 

Here are some more sources, since apparently one wasn't enough.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_%28game_design%29

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php  (note: "dominant strategies" section - SotG is a dominant strategy)

 

https://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/level-1-intro-to-game-balance/

 

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27041/game-balance

 

The common themes are:

 

> viable options (gone has no viable alternatives)

 

> the metagame (players keep mental and/or written lists of other players with gone; players factor these into decisions to run, engage, and call targets, often ranking this factor equal to or higher than overall account strength, the players behind the accounts, number of enemies, and others)

 

> dominant strategy (gone is a dominant strategy because it is clearly superior to other meditation paths, thus the majority of PvP players attempt to get this ability)

 

> counters  (gone has no counters)

[New_Unsleep 423]

lol, the butthurt is real 

[MetalDragon 1,630]

lol, the butthurt is real

Nothing left to say >

Let's divert attention to how upset one might think they are.

[Redd 4,281]

Pretty sure a 50% damage bonus against a 50% damage reduction is a strategy.

That being said there's no point arguing, apparently your opinion is more important than others.

[Propheteer 7,139]

Pretty sure a 50% damage bonus against a 50% damage reduction is a strategy.

That being said there's no point arguing, apparently your opinion is more important than others.

 

50% damage bonus is gonna do a lot, its almost not like everyone else you're against is gonna have SOTG too. Its very fortunate that he, the only guy he can target will take as long to die as the hate user now too, its very unfortunate that by the time he kills the first guy, hes going to be dead or his hate bonus will be out and hes going to be dead.

 

But on another note outside of strictly PvP, I'm also pretty sure that 50% damage bonus helps him out with drowning, helps him out with maintaining his stamina because he doesnt have to worry about his HP taking away as much of it, im also sure it helps him out when he jumps into token pits. Its almost like it helps him against mobs, towerguards, templars.

 

Oh wait, it doesn't, its not even in the same category. Stop comparing it. If the fact that its the most commonly used meditation path doesn't scream somethings up with it, i don't even know what to else to say at this point because everyone elses arguments seems to depend on "I died with it or you don't have it thus your opinion is irrelevant".

 

I still remember the conversations people had around when meditating was first released. I was sitting in the MR ventrilo at the time.

 

"Wow, did anyone see what Path of Insanity has?"

"That damage reduction is ###### OP"

"I wonder if it stacks with champ bonus"

"Its ###### ridiculous either way aye?"

"Hate bonus looks nice too."

 

And then statements such as "im gonna ###### people up when i have SOTG" Its really funny how nobody really wanted anything else, and the community shows that as is with everyone who has it not wanting it nerfed, and everyone on a PvP server going for it.

 

 

 

 

 

Refer to my post before this, you know, the wall of text. Its OP. (could be the reason why nobody replied to it and instead are completely ignoring my arguments and going back to repeating the same arguments they had, except they refuse to look at anything that proves them wrong, but hey could be me.)

 

It should be nerfed, and just because you have it or your dimwitted friends lost a fight because you are too clumsy to properly coordinate yourselves are not reasons not to nerf it. Try again, and think of a better reason that does something beyond heavily benefiting yourself.

 

 

 

Oh, and last I checked, rock paper scissors is balanced, rock rock scissors is not.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Propheteer

[Redd 4,281]

Thank you for proving my point. Hook line and sinker.

[Postinglels 1,270]

Also forgetting that 50% damage bonus is not equal to 100% more effective health. Kkthxbai

[SmeJack 5,806]

30 med vs 70 med its close enough for something that requires no effort at all, and exactly why it was pretty much a requirement of one kingdom for them all to have because it was stupid easy to get. The lazy vs the long term goal players and guess how many more lazy ones there are, hell I didn't even touch meditating for the first two years of epic because I thought it was pure arse and I hated the random skill decided long ago on freedom I would rather stick rusty pins in my eyeballs than meditate, but there you have it, level 7 hate is the meta for lazy players and as such is more than close enough to counter insanity for the few days of skill required to reach it. I could not care less if it doesn't help with drowning or tower guards or its restricted to an activated timed ability, its the cheap alternative for the cheap skill requirement and as such is tailored well. Everyone refuses to look at things that don't suit their argument, not just one side of the fence bubba.

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Also forgetting that 50% damage bonus is not equal to 100% more effective health. Kkthxbai

gg dat math

[Propheteer 7,139]

30 med vs 70 med its close enough for something that requires no effort at all, and exactly why it was pretty much a requirement of one kingdom for them all to have because it was stupid easy to get. The lazy vs the long term goal players and guess how many more lazy ones there are, hell I didn't even touch meditating for the first two years of epic because I thought it was pure arse and I hated the random skill decided long ago on freedom I would rather stick rusty pins in my eyeballs than meditate, but there you have it, level 7 hate is the meta for lazy players and as such is more than close enough to counter insanity for the few days of skill required to reach it. I could not care less if it doesn't help with drowning or tower guards or its restricted to an activated timed ability, its the cheap alternative for the cheap skill requirement and as such is tailored well. Everyone refuses to look at things that don't suit their argument, not just one side of the fence bubba.

 

Your first line is another reason why meditating is unbalanced, however, it doesn't address the issue of this thread and while effort put in is an issue, SOTG is a larger imbalance.

 

 

And while on epic, lazy people may never seek to upgrade, there are certainly at least 6-7 SOTG users to every 1 hate bonus user on chaos, if you disregard kingdoms.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Propheteer

[Battlepaw 585]

So they're supposed to waste a year and a half to get it so they can be knowledgeable enough to talk about it (in your eyes) just to get it nerfed? I'm pretty sure you don't have it, so what makes it acceptable for you to post here and not me? The hypocrisy here is staggering.

 

I guarantee most of the people that wanted light of fo, tentacles, BL spell spam, land of the dead, artifacts, and literally every other broken feature nerfed did not have it at that time. 

 

In regard to the completely invalid "everyone can get it so it's not OP" argument: 

 

Everyone could get level 7 path of love. Everyone could put enchanted olive trees on their dirt walls. Everyone could have invincible dirt walls. Their deeds could still be raided and weren't invincible, it just wasn't favorable for attackers because going through mine entrances is generally a bad idea and tends to get you trapped or killed. Anyone can get anything in this game given enough time or effort.

 

Here are some more sources, since apparently one wasn't enough.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_%28game_design%29

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php  (note: "dominant strategies" section - SotG is a dominant strategy)

 

https://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/level-1-intro-to-game-balance/

 

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27041/game-balance

 

The common themes are:

 

> viable options (gone has no viable alternatives)

 

> the metagame (players keep mental and/or written lists of other players with gone; players factor these into decisions to run, engage, and call targets, often ranking this factor equal to or higher than overall account strength, the players behind the accounts, number of enemies, and others)

 

> dominant strategy (gone is a dominant strategy because it is clearly superior to other meditation paths, thus the majority of PvP players attempt to get this ability)

 

> counters  (gone has no counters)

 

 

If I walked into a history class, and intended to turn in an APA level essay, and instead slapped down my history book and said that's all I needed to do, that's about what you have here when you are accounting for "Sources"    First of all if you would have actually looked at the sources rather than just pull random sites off the net you may have noticed that they do not define the way you look at game balance in any way shape or form in the context you try to use it.   I'm not sure why you would pull up a source for one type of deffinition and not read the parts and refrence those parts in your context but it does look a bit perplexing.   

 

So which particular of your sources can you actually put into context into wurm?       

 

1.   Metagame, has nothing at all to do with the context of this issue, as someone does not need to metagame to know the path leaders, and it really dosen't figure into the balance at all.    Unlike other games, Wurm online's PvP isn't affected by metagame in terms of most mechanics, what affects it is the alts, spying, etc.  This does not affect this paticluar issue.    

 

2.  Viable alternatives.  You clearly and completely lied in this statement, there have been multiple alternatives proposed to using SOTG, or bringing up the other meditation paths to be as useful.    This has been presented over and over in this topic and the lack of transparency in your statement is just a bit amusing.    If you want to present a balanced argument please refrain from pretending we can't scroll up and read the rest of the topic.   

 

3.  The dominate strategy, does not revolve around SOTG, as you can tell if you watch most of the videos and even the recent one you referenced earlier.   The dominate strategy on Chaos, at least is not SOTG, it is teamwork, crit hits, and gate hopping with very conservative gameplay mixed in.   The ratio of players who pvp, who do not have SOTG, and/or are on another path at this time currently well exceeds those who have SOTG, in fact even the players working for SOTG if you factor them in do not meet a majority.    

 

4.  There are several counters to SOTG, as a few other players who have it, and/or are on other mediation paths can attest.   While it is difficult, you can counter SOTG players if you know how the mechanic works or you can out-damage the player.    Even in that recent video you can see Miniroll taking most of his damage from a few high level players.   We were all surprised he lasted as long as he did because of how many players were on him.  This included other SOTG players that have commented on that fact and know the limitations of having it.    

Edited January 16, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Propheteer 7,139]

If I walked into a history class, and intended to turn in an APA level essay, and instead slapped down my history book and said that's all I needed to do, that's about what you have here when you are accounting for "Sources"    First of all if you would have actually looked at the sources rather than just pull random sites off the net you may have noticed that they do not define the way you look at game balance in any way shape or form in the context you try to use it.   I'm not sure why you would pull up a source for one type of deffinition and not read the parts and refrence those parts in your context but it does look a bit perplexing.   

 

So which particular of your sources can you actually put into context into wurm?       

 

1.   Metagame, has nothing at all to do with the context of this issue, as someone does not need to metagame to know the path leaders, and it really dosen't figure into the balance at all.    Unlike other games, Wurm online's PvP isn't affected by metagame in terms of most mechanics, what affects it is the alts, spying, etc.  This does not affect this paticluar issue.    

 

2.  Viable alternatives.  You clearly and completely lied in this statement, there have been multiple alternatives proposed to using SOTG, or bringing up the other meditation paths to be as useful.    This has been presented over and over in this topic and the lack of transparency in your statement is just a bit amusing.    If you want to present a balanced argument please refrain from pretending we can't scroll up and read the rest of the topic.   

 

3.  The dominate strategy, does not revolve around SOTG, as you can tell if you watch most of the videos and even the recent one you referenced earlier.   The dominate strategy on Chaos, at least is not SOTG, it is teamwork, crit hits, and gate hopping with very conservative gameplay mixed in.   The ratio of players who pvp, who do not have SOTG, and/or are on another path at this time currently well exceeds those who have SOTG, in fact even the players working for SOTG if you factor them in do not meet a majority.    

 

No, it certainly revolves around SOTG. You can do so much more with it. SOTG is effectively having another person on your team. Lasting for 15 seconds, and lasting for 30 seconds are very big differences, HUGE actually. You would know this if you actually PvPed.

 

And no, I know WAY more people who are trying to get SOTG/already have it than i know people on any other path. Pull out a rug, check path leaders on your account and any other account on any other path. You'll laugh at how stupid that just sounded. "The ratio of players who pvp who do not have SOTG exceeds those who do" What a joker! the key word was do pvp, not just attend a casual raid.

 

4.  There are several counters to SOTG, as a few other players who have it, and/or are on other mediation paths can attest.   While it is difficult, you can counter SOTG players if you know how the mechanic works or you can out-damage the player.    Even in that recent video you can see Miniroll taking most of his damage from a few high level players.   We were all surprised he lasted as long as he did because of how many players were on him.  This included other SOTG players that have commented on that fact and know the limitations of having it.    

 

I really wasn't aware that a counter to having more health was hitting the person, i thought that was just the way PvP worked.

 

Oh wait, it's not. There is no counter. If there was, hate DD would be permanent and it would do 100% more damage, not 50%, as an example. (Do note that this is also a GARBAGE solution as it doesn't fix any of the other paths either.)

 

 

 

Whats the deal with the stupidity in this thread? Its overpowered.

 

There are no solid counters to a permanent extra healthbar, as PJ said, the obvious,"50% damage bonus is not equal to 100% more effective health."

 

List out the counters, you know, outside of listing more unbalanced things such as the artifacts witth truestrike which, ofcourse, oneshots everyone who does not have SOTG.. (which encourages people to get it, which makes it even more noticeably overpowered and overused.)

 

Please list them, I can't think of any and I have tested and I still test PvP mechanics way more than the majority of the people in this thread, on top of actively PvPing since I started this game.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Propheteer

[Kagrenac 812]

2.  Viable alternatives.  You clearly and completely lied in this statement, there have been multiple alternatives proposed to using SOTG, or bringing up the other meditation paths to be as useful.    This has been presented over and over in this topic and the lack of transparency in your statement is just a bit amusing.    If you want to present a balanced argument please refrain from pretending we can't scroll up and read the rest of the topic. 

 

 

 

 

Playing in wurm should be about variety, which is why I support ideas to introduce more effective meditation abilities, or  I would support a system that works with advantage/disadvantage in trying to create less of a set way to pvp, and something more along the lines of personal preference.  

 

Ok, then tell me anything that is comparable to having SoTG.

People seem to ignore a lot of posts in this thread they don't want to deal with.

 

 

 

4.  There are several counters to SOTG, as a few other players who have it, and/or are on other mediation paths can attest.   While it is difficult, you can counter SOTG players if you know how the mechanic works or you can out-damage the player.    Even in that recent video you can see Miniroll taking most of his damage from a few high level players.   We were all surprised he lasted as long as he did because of how many players were on him.  This included other SOTG players that have commented on that fact and know the limitations of having it.    

"Doing more damage"

Is not a counter.

 

Love, use fa/fb to create small wounds that negate the ability (even though love really has no level 11 compared to gone, since lt works the same for gone)

Power, use rt to negate immunity, defend areas to negate special move spam.

Insanity, "Do more damage" , let the person have the full benefit of the ability,  not a counter.

 

 

Please explain the limitations of SoTG.

It doubles all your benefits, if you are surprised that can make people last a long time, I dont know what to say.

[MrGARY 12,421]

I'm pretty sure nobody has ever even attempted a play style based on countering meditating abilities which I don't see why any should have them to begin with.  I've not even seen anyone ever say something like 'target this guy he has a weakness to ice attacks we have fb weapons', outside of maybe like one video proph posted where they were casting spells on a sorcerer that didn't even do internals, to hit her internal weakness.  The point though is that sorcery does have downsides, even if small, but nobody r4eally focuses their gameplay on targetting weaknesses.  People wear moon helms and basic plate everywhere else, and most people still aim for the helm, the most basic and easiest way to assume and counter something and people don't do it

 

Nobody is even going to use rt against someone with path of power, it's pretty silly to use something that puts you at a disadvantage.  Using fb/fa against someone with love isn't really suited to be called a counter, because it's to your own benefit to use fb/fa regardless against anyone.  The only viable "counter" to anything really is defending against special moves, which isn't as easy as it sounds.  Get bashed once, can start a cricket while you're stunned, get hit immediately and stunned, next cricket is already being used

[Kagrenac 812]

I'm pretty sure nobody has ever even attempted a play style based on countering meditating abilities which I don't see why any should have them to begin with. 

I agree that it is pretty unlikely for people to attempt to counter meditation abilities, the point was more to show that they actually have a way to subvert/negate them, unlike SoTG(which is much more powerful).

[Miniroll 544]

I agree that it is pretty unlikely for people to attempt to counter meditation abilities, the point was more to show that they actually have a way to subvert/negate them, unlike SoTG(which is much more powerful).

Then buff the rest? Make them less subvertable.

[Qaay 100]

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_%28game_design%29

 

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134768/understanding_balance_in_video_.php  (note: "dominant strategies" section - SotG is a dominant strategy)

 

https://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/2010/07/07/level-1-intro-to-game-balance/

 

http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27041/game-balance

 

 

Nothing about sandboxes... there's nothing that can apply to a sandbox game, because sandboxes don't control enviroment where/when/how/how much/and between who pvp happens just like themeparks do, the only way to balance sandbox game is by ensuring everyone can  get anything the game offers on the same conditions, So wurm as a KvsKvsK game can be really unbalanced only in part where it limits certain options to players in different kingdoms like specific WL/BLonly spells and abbilities or between priests and crafters.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Qaay

[Horsch 151]

with proper teamwork, sotg players can be defeated.

[Postinglels 1,270]

Shouldn't require a team to do it frandster

[Kagrenac 812]

Then buff the rest? Make them less subvertable.

[New_Unsleep 423]

I still just dont see whats wrong with having 1 end game ability that people will work for, so what if other meditation paths arent as good? Just pick insanity and you wont have to worry about it, no reason not to. And its not like its hard to get, just takes time, separates the lazy from the hard working.