Constructive Discussion on Shield of the Gone

[Ocean 128]

No, it's never hard to change stuff without actually fixing the problem at hand. We usually call those band aid patches.

 

Never heard that term used before, but based on your username I'm guessing you have one of the best solutions in the thread?

 

If so, godspeed with the fix.

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Would it be that difficult to make the other meditation paths match SotG without having to change SotG whatsoever?

With SoTG as it is, the only real way to add any balance is to make it possible to have a 50% damage bonus as a passive ability (which ruins one purpose of being a magranon priest, and makes hate ability for 50% more damage pointless too), but this will make it even harder on newer players or average joes that don't have 70 meditating, making it even more of a requirement to have 70 meditating before PvP.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

godspeed with the fix.

 

WHOA MAN slow down. Remember when archery didn't suck? Remember when calf shots actually hurt? Remember that day or two that vesseled gems were useless? Remember when plate was OP (/sarcasm), when you could actually locate priests because they all didn't have nolo, when there weren't fifty different ways to teleport into/out of PvP, when meditation didn't exist?

 

These are all very good examples of what happens when things are rushed. I still think gone should be nerfed, but I also think that a full patch would either overhaul the entire meditation system to have less of an effect on PvP or remove it entirely. 

[Ocean 128]

WHOA MAN slow down. Remember when archery didn't suck? Remember when calf shots actually hurt? Remember that day or two that vesseled gems were useless? Remember when plate was OP (/sarcasm), when you could actually locate priests because they all didn't have nolo, when there weren't fifty different ways to teleport into/out of PvP, when meditation didn't exist?

 

These are all very good examples of what happens when things are rushed. I still think gone should be nerfed, but I also think that a full patch would either overhaul the entire meditation system to have less of an effect on PvP or remove it entirely. 

 

Good luck!

[MrGARY 12,421]

WHOA MAN slow down. Remember when archery didn't suck? Remember when calf shots actually hurt? Remember that day or two that vesseled gems were useless? Remember when plate was OP (/sarcasm), when you could actually locate priests because they all didn't have nolo, when there weren't fifty different ways to teleport into/out of PvP, when meditation didn't exist?

 

These are all very good examples of what happens when things are rushed. I still think gone should be nerfed, but I also think that a full patch would either overhaul the entire meditation system to have less of an effect on PvP or remove it entirely. 

 

Do you know what calf/foot shots did?  They didn't do more damage, they slowed you down to insanely slow speeds, so aiming low was the meta, and getting calf shot pretty much meant you're dead, I dunno how that's a good thing that was overpowered for sure.  But it was in game for years so I dunno what was rushed or if you meant the change to that was rushed either.  I'm not sure how giving all priests nolo was rushed either, that and locate has been a debate for years and years.  I'm not sure how the 4 ways to teleport in/out of pvp are rushed.  The only thing I can agree felt rushed is all the weird archery nerfs

[SotG_is_OP 357]

Calf shots were over-nerfed (I know what they did, apparently you misunderstood my somewhat loose usage of the word "hurt"). Nolocate and locate soul were only needed on Libila and Vynora, not all four. Teleporting is just a bad idea in general - the less the better, and there's way too much of that now.

[MarkSilard 194]

After almost 3 weeks this topic is on, and since 49% of votes is for no change  in Shield of the Gone, this should be closed. There is no point to go further in discussing about it anymore.

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

After almost 3 weeks this topic is on, and since 49% of votes is for no change in Shield of the Gone, this should be closed. There is no point to go further in discussing about it anymore.

Forum polls are far from representative. Even an in game poll would be useless since too many ppl alrdy have an extra health bar and I'm sure 95% of em dont wanna give it up. ur argument is pathetic.

[Fooligun 591]

After almost 3 weeks this topic is on, and since 49% of votes is for no change in Shield of the Gone, this should be closed. There is no point to go further in discussing about it anymore.

It'll likely change, but 49% isn't a majority so therefore the majority want it changed... And what was said above :0

[Battlepaw 585]

It'll likely change, but 49% isn't a majority so therefore the majority want it changed... And what was said above :0

 

That would be true if the majority could agree on how to do it, but your also taking about many players voteing that don't even use it much less understand how it works.   If you want a proper poll put it up on the pvp servers and make the changes depending on what each community feels is more appropriate.   If it needs to be changed differently on Epic compared to Chaos, you can try two different methods.    What I do resent is players on freedom making decisions by claiming they are the majority simply because they feel it's their duty to meddle for "the good of the  game, etc"  when they couldn't be asked to even understand the issue, they just follow the rhetoric and compare it to games  that have little resemblance to Wurm.    

 

We have an in-game voteing system and that should be the medium we use to get a better idea on what players want, not this stupid forum pvp slugfest.   It's decisions made during these stupid forum sieges to different issues, often in issues that are completely split that has resulted in such an awkward pvp system.    I've watch the forums for over 5 years and I have to say I'm still trying to figure out the logic sometimes.    

 

Playing in wurm should be about variety, which is why I support ideas to introduce more effective meditation abilities, or  I would support a system that works with advantage/disadvantage in trying to create less of a set way to pvp, and something more along the lines of personal preference.    The same thing should apply to the servers, no one change should effect all of wurm PvP, it should depend on how a situation between servers varies, or expectations often with different types of fighting. Chaos tends to have a ton of deed warfare, and as far as I know always has.   Things like SOTG, champ bonus, etc help because players try to get quick crit kills during defense or attack.   It's why so many of us resented having to put up with the mine door changes that were developed on Epic, since it gave major advantages to the defenders compared to attckers, when before it was about even depending on how well each side was fighting.      

Edited January 13, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Postinglels 1,270]

@ battlepaw, won't ingame voting be subject to a similar alt abuse as forum voting. Like some people have more premium accounts than I've had hot dinners. And at the end of the day Rolf will do what he wants despite his vision of how pvp mechanics vs the reality. But surely you cannot argue with maths, a basic 70/70/70 pvp account with gone lasts twice as long as his non- gone compatriot. This is not from skill or any overriding ability on the gone player's part and there is no hard counter. You can wreck a pol player by using aosp and fb, you can make power path irrelevant by just being a better fighter and as for hate you can kite the poor bugger or sit laughing at him from a nice safe distance while his timer runs out. But people claiming that sotg can be countered by 'muh stack more guys on him' are obviously blind to the lack of a counter to this ability. Now, while I agree that insanity needs a nerf and that it's lower level abilities are unpalatable, the path needs to be looked at as a whole and restructured in a considered fashion whereby a hard counter to exists to mitigate the abilities effect. Hate also needs some tlc

[Kagrenac 812]

Playing in wurm should be about variety, which is why I support ideas to introduce more effective meditation abilities, or  I would support a system that works with advantage/disadvantage in trying to create less of a set way to pvp, and something more along the lines of personal preference.  

Ok, then tell me anything that is comparable to having SoTG.

[Gaeron 551]

Rather than keep worrying about votes is it possible to have one of the dev team count up how many level 11+ there are on each path?

 

Totals by server so that we have a clearer indication of what is favoured and what is not and whether there is a problem with any particular path, either too popular or not popular enough.

 

With some actual data some of these arguments may actually gain more credence.

[MrGARY 12,421]

Forum polls are far from representative. Even an in game poll would be useless since too many ppl alrdy have an extra health bar and I'm sure 95% of em dont wanna give it up. ur argument is pathetic.

 

Too many?  What lol, there's like 10? total in MR, including people that don't even play anymore like phynx/brunwulf.  Even if each kingdom has that "many" it's far from too many

[Battlepaw 585]

Too many?  What lol, there's like 10? total in MR, including people that don't even play anymore like phynx/brunwulf.  Even if each kingdom has that "many" it's far from too many

 

Heh yea, I can see the path leaders just like anyone else can on Chaos, and I think this whole issue is beeing blown way out of proportion.   Most of the fighters I work with every day do not have SOTG, and many don't use it, use another path, or don't bother with it at all.    Every time I see people stand on their cheap soap boxes and try to pull out one straw man argument after another I just shake my head and wonder how many of them actually play the dang game rather than live on the forums.    

 

In terms of the in-game voting system, yes players have alts, but we already know that the GMs have the ability to see what accounts are linked to each other, and we know that the servers track unique IP logins with the stats.   Wurm has had alts as far back as I can remember.  I generally don't give Rolf much credit in the logic department but if he added a voting system that can't also indicate unique votes than I'd seriously be surprised.   Either way, if you do this across all the servers, including freedom you can generally see who is pushing an issue, for example if you polled this issue across epic, chaos, and Freedom and got different results you would use that in your decision making process, which is certainly more useful then trying to sort out the kind of drama fests we get on the forums.    

[MetalDragon 1,630]

Rather than keep worrying about votes is it possible to have one of the dev team count up how many level 11+ there are on each path?

Totals by server so that we have a clearer indication of what is favoured and what is not and whether there is a problem with any particular path, either too popular or not popular enough.

With some actual data some of these arguments may actually gain more credence.

I agree to this but I wouldn't say just level 11 onwards because that excludes those working their way up to 11 to specifically have this ability.

[New_Unsleep 423]

This discussion is producing nothing of worth, i definitely feel its time for it to be closed. 

[Gaeron 551]

looked at the hate path status

 

finger : 2

sheep : 1

shark : 1

infection : 3

free : 1

 

The only reason there is a "free" is because I can't be bothered to go through the effort to change.

 

The in game player vote - Hate path sucks.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

This entire thread is like a bunch of politicians voting themselves pay raises versus the taxpayers. The common sense answer is obvious, but half of the whole is in denial. 

 

While we're making self-serving arguments, I'd like all servers but JKH to have the CR nerf removed, only JKH gets the ore cap removed, I'd like GMs to spawn me several million dirt to cover the western border, I'd also like enough bricks and mortar to put longhouses on that dirt, then GM protection on the houses to prevent decay and bashing. There would still be one open spot in the north west to allow crossing near the JKE side.

 

This would make a lot of people join JK because we would have vastly superior defenses given to us by the game. There would be no reason to join other kingdoms because they would be vulnerable while JK would be extremely well defended (but not entirely invincible). People would be safe here, and they could leave to PvP elsewhere if they wanted to. The only people who would join MR, BL, or a PMK would be those who want the challenge of being at a severe disadvantage, which would be very few in number.

 

Does this sound like gone yet? Change the kingdom to BL, MR, or TK, it really doesn't matter. It's still broken regardless. Yeah, this is exaggerated, but I tried to get some critical thinking going here.

[Battlepaw 585]

This entire thread is like a bunch of politicians voting themselves pay raises versus the taxpayers. The common sense answer is obvious, but half of the whole is in denial. 

 

While we're making self-serving arguments, I'd like all servers but JKH to have the CR nerf removed, only JKH gets the ore cap removed, I'd like GMs to spawn me several million dirt to cover the western border, I'd also like enough bricks and mortar to put longhouses on that dirt, then GM protection on the houses to prevent decay and bashing. There would still be one open spot in the north west to allow crossing near the JKE side.

 

This would make a lot of people join JK because we would have vastly superior defenses given to us by the game. There would be no reason to join other kingdoms because they would be vulnerable while JK would be extremely well defended (but not entirely invincible). People would be safe here, and they could leave to PvP elsewhere if they wanted to. The only people who would join MR, BL, or a PMK would be those who want the challenge of being at a severe disadvantage, which would be very few in number.

 

Does this sound like gone yet? Change the kingdom to BL, MR, or TK, it really doesn't matter. It's still broken regardless. Yeah, this is exaggerated, but I tried to get some critical thinking going here.

 

Critical thinking?.... er nope.   This response is a case in point.  I can take pretty much any mechanic in the game and use this particular argument and claim something is broken, hell in fact looking at every topic you put up this is about the order you phrase an argument.   

 

1.  Claim something is OP

2.   Say you know better and that everything will be right with the world when said mechanic is fixed.

3.   Insert straw man here, prop up and inflate one side, then compare your gripe with it.

4.  Call anyone who doesn't agree with you bias, and that is the reason they don't agree with you, as if that is the only possible reason they would disagree with your so sound and "logical" arguments.  

 

This would be a better strategy:

 

1.    Present both sides of the argument, and explain your own actual observations, include experiences that you can back up with sound evidence. 

2.   Explain both the advantages and disadvantages of your proposal, use contextual observations.    

3.  Argue and modify possible solutions, as you gain knowledge from input.   

 

The problem is, your only goal here is to try to convince everyone you are right, and conveniently ignoring all changes in context from players from Chaos, and others from Epic that want to challenge your authority to judge what is "common sense" without taking into account that the context is different compared to Epic, and Chaos, that the situation and the play styles are different.  Accounts are built differently and the fighting environment is out of context.     If you do in fact actually understand the context or have any real experience actually playing this game.  I'm not convinced of that yet by many of the statements you have made.   

Edited January 15, 2015 by Battlepaw

[Sizzle 184]

I wonder what Rolf will do. Both sides have strong arguments. Sh1tty situation. To Nerf or not to Nerf ...

[SotG_is_OP 357]

Strong arguments? It clearly is unbalanced (according to the definition of unbalanced), which right off the bat suggests a change. It is the single best ability, has no counters, leaves all but one other option useless (that one is still inferior). There is no argument for the other side.

 

I think people are missing how opinions don't overrule facts. "I died using it" isn't an argument at all. It doesn't make you invincible, and if it did it would be overpowered. The logic (or lack thereof) here is that its not overpowered unless it makes you invincible, which is wrong. I honestly can't understand why you are arguing with experienced game designers (David Sirlin) about this kind of stuff, then telling me I don't know anything about this and facts need to be presented. That's just hypocritical.

 

You can't use "I have a right to my opinion" in a thread that needs facts. You can't base a balance change off of what players think, because as stated most are only in it for themselves. The only good thing gone does is mitigate abuse of other overpowered mechanics (artifacts and damage buff stacking), which also need a change (which won't happen because your kingdom is stone walling that the same as they are this). You can't use one broken feature to compensate for another. Broken mechanics need to be fixed properly. 

[SotG_is_OP 357]

Here's my practical evidence:

 

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh95P02yeaA

 

First kill - almost 45 seconds to kill a CRASHED player with shield of the gone while overcrowded. That's absurd.

[New_Unsleep 423]

Ive come to the conclusion sotg_is_op just likes to force his ideas down peoples throats without any clue what hes actually talking about, rolf doesnt care what is "balanced" he cares what the majority of people want, and right now its about half and half, so you shouldnt really expect a change. Opinions will always overrule facts when it comes to a game, because its all about pleasing the player population. And cut the "theyre only in it for themselves" ###### out, just makes you sound like a complete douche, if you can name 81 people with sotg that would take the time to vote on this poll please, go ahead, but i guarantee at least half of the people that voted no change do not have sotg, they just dont like people whining about why they lose fights. It really is not that big of a game changer, like ive said, its way more about out smarting the enemy than which side has more sotg players, so maybe if youd stop whining on the forums and actually went in game and practiced, maybe youd have a chance. Only thing i see from that video is the terrible lag that you get from having so many people in an area, which is a much worse problem than worrying about whether sotg is op or not.

Edited January 15, 2015 by New_Unsleep

[Jukimo 234]

That guy doesn't even play on pvp servers anymore from what im aware, just another forum warrior