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Constructive Discussion on Shield of the Gone

Changes to Shield of the Gone  

192 members have voted

  1. 1. If Shield of the Gone is nerfed, what do you feel is an appropriate change?

    • 30% Passive Damage Reduction
      6
    • 25% Passive Damage Reduction
      30
    • 20% Passive Damage Reduction
      17
    • 15% Passive Damage Reduction
      5
    • 10% Passive Damage Reduction
      9
    • Activated Ability - Please post how long the activation period, and cooldown.
      18
    • Other
      8
    • No Change
      99


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59 say change it and 61 alts say keep it the same... Sounds about right.

So what you're saying is that I'm an alt.

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So what you're saying is that I'm an alt.

I am not alt either.

 

There's enough nerfing in this game as is.

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Poll has spoken

 

So... People see it as an issue and those that think it should be nerfed favor ~25% reduction over an activated ability.

 

soo... can we remove the spell casting restriction when using plate? i mean... everyone can be a priest so this should be no problem

psure noone agreed with those nerfs, that was Rolf doing what Rolf does.

 

 

I recall witnessing this trap in the past, there are no other games like wurm so when asked to find something to compare it may always be refused as an example for not being the right kind of game.

He said name any mmo pvp game, not any game like wurm.

Pretty sure you could say any pvp game and you still couldn't find anything.

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i'm not an alt.


i voted no change.


i have SOTG and i die just as fast as anyone else.


 


you just have to be a good player to take advantage of the sotg. 


 


just having sotg doesn't make you op.


knowing how to use your character makes you op.


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i have SOTG and i die just as fast as anyone else.

 

you just have to be a good player to take advantage of the sotg. 

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I am not an alt and i also put -1. I am getting tired of this being just 1 sided. SoTG_is_OP has an opinion and that is above anything. So he must be right. It reminds me how it used to work when i was a child. The one who screams the loudest is right. That is not how it works. And as you see this being the gamebreaker of Wurm, i don´t. My opinion vs yours. No way in hell you i will accept that your opinion is better then mine. And as all the polls so far show that over half of the people don´t think this should be nerfed. The others think this might, but don´t know how. I think some forum admin just should lock this thread, but as someone put the effort into making a forum alt to fight against something he belives he will just make a new thread. P


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59 say change it and 61 alts say keep it the same... Sounds about right.

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I've been watching this poll since the beginning (obviously), and the poll numbers have stayed consistently at ~50% voting No Change. It has jumped up to 52% and been as low as 49% but from 20 votes to... 124 votes (currently) the ratio has always been about 50% voting No Change.


 


I feel like that shouldn't be discounted, thats a pretty solid indicator in my opinion.


 


Also, its pretty clear that 25% reduction is the leading favorite for a rebalance of SotG. A 20% Damage Reduction is also getting a fair amount of votes, and if that voting group agreed on a 25% Damage Reduction that option would carry approximately 25% of the poll (and has since the beginning).


 


So basically what we can see here (from this very limited pool of votes) is that half of the community thinks SotG is not a large enough issue to be a stand alone rebalance. While 25% of the community feel a reduction to approximately 25% would be more balanced in regards to PvP. This percentage would be further increased if other voting groups agreed to it.


 


If forced to choose between either No Change or a rebalance to 25% Damage Reduction I think its safe to say that it would be split pretty evenly down the middle.


 


In my personal opinion that is not a strong enough voice to warrant a change to Shield of the Gone. That is just fertile ground for a serious argument.


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I recall witnessing this trap in the past, there are no other games like wurm so when asked to find something to compare it may always be refused as an example for not being the right kind of game.

What lol, we're just looking at the combat side of wurm, no? There are many games out there with combat which relies on your skill points to determine how often you will hit your opponent so it's quite easy to compare the combat system.

You will find in other games the passive damage reduction abilities are under 20% of the most common type of damage where high damage reduction abilities are aimed at specific types of damage (fire, ice, lightning etc)

Unfortunately in Wurm, the ability covers ALL TYPES of damage which makes it absurdly over powered because there is ZERO counters for it, it's not like magical damage got a 200% damage increase to make you more vulnerable in situations, to allow for more tactical play. it's 50% damage reduction across the board. Valrei abilities are on the right line by giving you an improvement and a debuff at the same time.

<Wurzel> i did think the damage i was taking from falling and drowning seemed less than before but it is hard to tell

<Rof> alright well it should be by half in most cases already

<Rof> made some small changes that affected healing though

<Rof> that made it heal half as fast as well

<Rof> in some cases

Rolf says most cases but I'm certain it's 100% of the cases, likely just doubting some types of damage he might have forgot, and going off what he's wrote it's likely wounds take 2x as long to get worse too which is another bonus.

BTW: Good Article for those who might've skipped over it: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions

There is a second part to the article at the bottom.

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i'll vote +1 if champion reduction is reduced as well... cause WL has 9 champs, BL has only 3 champs. GG.


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i'll vote +1 if champion reduction is reduced as well... cause WL has 9 champs, BL has only 3 champs. GG.

 

What lol

 

wl as a total has 6 possible champs, and that's only 3 per kingdom...  mr vs bl is the same as mr vs jk, or jk vs bl

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Also, keep in mind that this is a PvP suggestion and Freedom is likely saying keep it the same, which would account for some of the "don't nerf" votes. AI has no feelings or opinion - this is not a PvE change.


 


From Sirlin article:


 


" A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable--especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.


    —Sirlin, December 2001"

 

"Viable Options: Lots of meaningful choices presented to the player. They should be presented with enough context to allows the player to use strategy to make those choices.

Fairness: Players of equal skill have a roughly equal chance at winning even though they might start the game with different sets of options / moves / characters / resources / etc."


"If an expert player can consistently beat other experts by just doing one move or one tactic, we have to call that game imbalanced because there aren’t enough viable options. Such a game might have thousands of options, but we only care about the meaningful ones."


 


This developer (David Sirlin) has a lot of experience in the gaming industry. What he has described here is exactly what shield of the gone defies down to the letter. 


Edited by SotG_is_OP

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The only thing i can think of is to restructure all the paths. The only part i understand about every path being "overpowered" (lets be honest its not just PoI) is that you get a sudden buff. The paths would need some "balancing". What i suggest would be this:

 

Inanity:

Level 3 you get 10% physical immunity

Level 5 you get 20% physical immunity

Level 7 you get 30% physical immunity

Level 9 you get 40% physical immunity

Lvel 11 you get the full 50% physical immunity.

 

Hate:

Level 3 you get 10% increased damage (Change: ALWAYS ACTIVE)

Level 5 you get 20% increased damage (Change: ALWAYS ACTIVE)

Level 7 you get 30% increased damage (Change: ALWAYS ACTIVE)

Level 9 you get 40% increased damage (Change: ALWAYS ACTIVE)

Level 11 you get 50% increased damage (Change: ALWAYS ACTIVE)

 

Knowledge:

Level 3 you get 5% increased skill gain

Level 5 you get 10% increased skill gain

Level 7 you get 15% increased skill gain

Level 9 you get 20% increased skill gain

Level 11 you get the full 25% increased skill gain

 

Etc you get the idea. 

 

Hate would gain something different at level 7, maybe a CR buff. This is the only way i can see all paths being balanced, where you dont get a sudden increase in "Op-ness"(?), and where its easy for everyone to get some of the end ability whilst being on the path.

 

Food for thought anyway. Other then what i said above, thats the only way i see a need to change, otherwise leave it how it is.

I very like this idea with different gains at levels. Would only change power of both (hate and insanity) to make them same as knowledge - 25% maximum.

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^ That really doesn't help, considering shield of the gone is still shield of the gone, and now a level 7 path that shouldn't cancel out a level 11 (gone) is now a level 11 and still doesn't cancel it out. If it did, it would be too powerful against non-gone. It's even borderline too strong against non-gone now with two handed weapons.


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I'm ginna make a post that fs is too OP. My 1fs priest alt can't take anyone's 90fs mains because I can't be bothered to grind the skill up.

;_;

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I agree it needs changing, but you don't seem to grasp the comprehension needed to suggest a balanced change that will cover the entire meditation system and just crying nerf...

While I don't fully agree with the numbers redd suggested, his idea of a slowly scaling system for all paths would be a lot better than the current sudden boost system.

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Scaling system based on body stats to allow newbies to have the same hit points as experienced players, with experienced players only able to get 5% boost over after X Body skill. Makes newer players keep on par with the people 5 years into the game.

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I'm ginna make a post that fs is too OP. My 1fs priest alt can't take anyone's 90fs mains because I can't be bothered to grind the skill up.

;_;

Terrible comparison because:

a. Fight skill really matters less than gone.

b. Fight skill has no real time grind walls.( meditation has 2 types)

c. Fight skill is designed to make it easy to become competitive, meditation is designed to be hard (or at least tedious) to advance.

 

Someone has 70 fs which takes a week at most vs someone with 90, person with 90 has a couple CR more.

 

Someone with any amount of meditation vs someone with gone, person with gone has a huge advantage.

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^ That really doesn't help, considering shield of the gone is still shield of the gone, and now a level 7 path that shouldn't cancel out a level 11 (gone) is now a level 11 and still doesn't cancel it out. If it did, it would be too powerful against non-gone. It's even borderline too strong against non-gone now with two handed weapons.

 

1. how about a path 11 that inflicts something onto whoever/whatever is hit by that player, with a physical hit, all dmg onto that player by x% for x amount of seconds?

 

maybe, like, 20% increase of all dmg onto that player is inflicted onto that player for the next 10 seconds?

 

not sure if thats possible.

 

2. or how about a path 11 that inflicts a grievous like wound that prevents healing for x amount of seconds?

 

3. or how about a path 11 that inflicts something that reduces that players armor reduction upon being hit?

 

lots of ways to counter it. just make it a lvl 11 path. no need to go fricken nerfing everything in the game.

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I'm ginna make a post that fs is too OP. My 1fs priest alt can't take anyone's 90fs mains because I can't be bothered to grind the skill up.

;_;

 

First of all, 70 FS vs. 90 FS is only a 4 CR difference, which doesn't really matter in group fights. A skilled player making a new account can get 70 FS in under a week and PvP well with it. Making an 80/80/80 fighter with ~40 body can be done in under a year, provided that player already has experience. Newbies take longer because they don't know the ropes yet, and this account isn't even that great.

 

Shield of the gone increases your life span in combat by two to three times. It is a much larger bonus than 4 CR. 

 

Lastly, it has nothing to do wtih "cbb grind 70 med derp" as you state. You really have only two good path options, one clearly being the single best. Aside from that, you can get it much lower with enlightenment. This isn't a matter of skill on the part of the player or the character. 

 

1. how about a path 11 that inflicts something onto whoever/whatever is hit by that player, with a physical hit, all dmg onto that player by x% for x amount of seconds?

 

maybe, like, 20% increase of all dmg onto that player is inflicted onto that player for the next 10 seconds?

 

not sure if thats possible.

 

2. or how about a path 11 that inflicts a grievous like wound that prevents healing for x amount of seconds?

 

3. or how about a path 11 that inflicts something that reduces that players armor reduction upon being hit?

 

lots of ways to counter it. just make it a lvl 11 path. no need to go fricken nerfing everything in the game.

 

Nerfing gone is one step to allow other options. It's not nerfing everything, it's nerfing something that is completely overpowered and is even supported by outside evidence from experienced game designers. The system as a whole will still be broken, just less so, and it is the fault of arguments like these where players don't want anything that might not benefit them directly (ie. balancing religion, meditation, mounts/mount speed, etc.).

 

This is no longer a matter of opinion. This is a matter of fact vs. fallacy. The only actual evidence here that supports the current state of gone is a bunch of players complaining that they don't want to be nerfed because they benefit from it in some manner. You can't make an argument for it because there is nothing even close to comparable in strength. There is plenty of evidence from multiple sources that this is broken. How about reading the Sirlin article and actually thinking about it like a designer, not a player? These are universal principles of game design that apply to all multiplayer games, not just certain titles. There is no argument in favor of gone. 

Edited by SotG_is_OP

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2 pages later.. Still same person telling other their ideas are stupid and don´t count so he has to be right.. Yeah we all know where this is going. Oh and now instead of alts who are voting against are freedomers... Heh.. go figure


Edited by Argustin

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@Argustin - and still 2 pages later you try and bury this discussion with the same argument that one person is pushing for this the loudest in hopes it gets changed - I can make the same negative styled posts about you.

I have no interest in the guy telling everyone else is wrong, it doesn't matter to anyone that they're being told they're wrong if you're posting something to support your point, but over the many posts he has given, he has provided a lot of points why it's not balanced, where a lot of other players are basing their whole argument against it is because the "anyone can get it" and "slightly more than 50% of people don't agree" then other people backing up these statements suggesting others are too lazy to get it.

Because anyone can get something doesn't mean it's balanced, developers shouldn't take voting statistics as 100% proof due to the fact the player base want generally their abilities to be over powered and others want the abilities they don't have underpowered.

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2 pages later.. Still same person telling other their ideas are stupid and don´t count so he has to be right.. Yeah we all know where this is going. Oh and now instead of alts who are voting against are freedomers... Heh.. go figure

 

Except that Freedomers don't have ulterior motive, and quite frankly there is nothing wrong with SotG against wild cats. I really don't think it needs to be nerfed over there, or even that it should because it would just cause more PvE vs. PvP whining.

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I honestly think all high level meditation abilities should either have no fighting benefits or be deactivated on pvp servers.  I personally wont grind meditation to that level, and don't like the 'idea' (even if exaggerated) that i will be gimped hard in pvp because of it.  If the pvp community is okay with less people than fine, i can handle xanadu.  Also i think i only speak of epic, leave chaos to be whatever it wants.


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