Constructive Discussion on Shield of the Gone

[Qaay 100]

Saying that it is obvious that most people don't think it should be nerfed is a strange statement, since it is a pretty even split between people who think it should be and shouldn't be.

 

 

It's not strange statement at all because:

 

 a. People bellow 70 meditation are allowed to vote here and we cannot separate votes of people who sipmly cba to gring meditation(and am pretty sure some people who recently wanted to buy sotg accounts voted for changes)

 b. Every vote for option 1-6 is simply irrevelant and shouldn't be taken into consideration - lowering SotG dmg reduction to 30% means it will be countered directly by rage lvl2, moreover... rage lvl2 50% dmg bonus works also on enemy's horse which simply means a level 30 meditation ability which takes mere few weeks would simply overcounter 70 meditation ability which require 8-12 months of work and dedication.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Qaay

[SotG_is_OP 357]

It's not strange statement at all because:

 

 a. People bellow 70 meditation are allowed to vote here and we cannot separate votes of people who sipmly cba to gring meditation(and am pretty sure some people who recently wanted to buy sotg accounts voted for changes)

 b. Every vote for option 1-6 is simply irrevelant and shouldn't be taken into consideration - lowering SotG dmg reduction to 30% means it will be countered directly by rage lvl2, moreover... rage lvl2 50% dmg bonus works also on enemy's horse which simply means a level 30 meditation ability which takes mere few weeks would simply overcounter 70 meditation ability which require 8-12 months of work and dedication.

 

IMO Rage level 2 (level 7 path of hate) is too powerful as well. The whole meditation system is broken and needs an overhaul or just a flat out removal from the PvP side of the game. Gone is just the most broken and most often complained about. Path of power is very powerful against anything except gone, double LT on love is almost useless unless you're fighting people with only RT and WA (who probably either have no idea how to PvP or are just unlucky blacklighters without a Vynora mine-dwelling alt), knowledge is very strong for skilling but doesn't have direct impact during combat, and hate wouldn't be worthy of level 11 if priests were properly balanced because spells are, according to Rolf's past actions, supposed to maintain a support role, not provide a magical primary offense or a ridiculous heal rate. Many players like this idea - sword and board combat with spells and abilities providing a support role, not bombardment of magical attacks and proliferation of supernatural buffs. 

 

TLDR Meditation is an entirely broken system and should be balanced or removed. This is Wurm Online. Runescape is that-a-way -----------------)>

[madnezz 555]

LOL - everything is overpowered now?  You have just agreed with my argument.  Meditation abilities are powerful, each in their own way, therefore they do not need to be changed.  If you have this much trouble adapting to Wurm it sounds like there are other games that have the balance you crave you might want to give a go.

Edited December 31, 2014 by madnezz

[SotG_is_OP 357]

LOL - everything is overpowered now?  You have just agreed with my argument.  Meditation abilities are powerful, each in their own way, therefore they do not need to be changed.  If you have this much trouble adapting to Wurm it sounds like there are other games that have the balance you crave you might want to give a go.

 

Now you're just desperate. The word "broken" does not equate to "overpowered".

 

Love is useless against people who know how their enchants work. Hate level 11 was only worthy of level 11 during a three to four month period this summer due to a dominant strategy only usable by a single kingdom. Those people left, and level 11 hate's only use is the occasional direct target spell. It doesn't block dispel, which would be overpowered. 

 

These two were somewhat well designed in one aspect: they are situational. The problem is that their respective uses were too narrow (love only against unlucky BL or newbies, hate only against BL, barely worthy of level 7 against WL).

 

Knowledge is only OP if your method of competition involved sitting on deed all day (/sarcasm it's not OP, no effect in combat). 

 

Power is very good, but not really overpowered. You can kill someone without stun-locking and special-move-spamming (which are arguably broken as well), but current health acts as a hard cap on maximum stamina and thus limits the effect of vibrant light. Level 9 is also very good, but can be countered with RT (it's only saving grace, which sadly also has a counter). Love may need a tweak downward if LT is made reliable.

[MrGARY 12,421]

So basically anyone that doesn't want gone nerfed is selfish and only wants it for themselves because opinions and beliefs aren't allowed, and anyone wanting it nerfed into the ground obviously just wants what is best for the game.  All I seem to be reading, where is this constructive discussion?  As per every other attempt at discussions relating to pvp it's gone right down the garbage hole thanks to the same exact people that cause every other pvp related discussion thread to turn into nothing but a track leading to a locked useless thread

 

 

Another issue I find is with the valrei items, the initial release of them were good (I think if you had them all, you were 5% weaker in all areas with the perk of having all abilities) now I believe this was changed so you're overall 5% stronger in all areas ONTOP of having all these abilities. I also find it disheartening that the most powerful valrei abilities come with powerful damage reduction buffs too, while the worst abilities have the worst debuffs (bad ability + take more damage to a common damage type). But this is another story.

 

They were never 5% weaker if you had all.  Originally they were 50% buffs, and 200% debuffs (half damage, and 3x damage), so they were just dumb instant powerful buffs probably gained by killing one bull, while having account destroying permanent debuffs.  Current buff/debuff combos come out to around 6.5% buff, and I'm sorry but 6.5% isn't anywhere near being in the realm of overpowered or even powerful.

Edited December 31, 2014 by MrGARY

[SotG_is_OP 357]

So basically anyone that doesn't want gone nerfed is selfish and only wants it for themselves because opinions and beliefs aren't allowed

 

The "I'm entitled to my opinion" argument ends right around where uninformed nonsense begins. Nerfing gone to 25% is in no way nerfing it to the ground. It's still powerful. You still have 75% health when someone without it is dead, 63% with addy plate or scale, and 51% with glimmer plate (which is still double health). 

 

This ability adds literally nothing to the game play aside from making elite accounts more elite and further widening the gap between newbies and elites, thus making PvP even harder to get into. I was under the impression that PvP should be easier to get into - the direction the game has taken the past couple years seems to point this way. Considering this, I'd would say yes, people who are arguing against this are selfish. It's not all about you... unless you think 20 online on a PvP server is in some way acceptable. I would like to see that grow, but good luck with this attitude toward a simple common sense fix.

[Kswords 461]

I voted Other.

I'd like to see it work differently in PvP but stay the same for PvE.

 

It's very nice to hunt and not take a whole lot of damage and heal up that damage with an LT weapon.

 

On the other hand I hear there is a lot of complaints that it's too OP in PvP.

 

What I'd like to see is the change to be 25% when fighting another player and keep the 50% when fighting creatures.

[madnezz 555]

Doesn't Challenged take care of all of the issues you have against OP meditation?  The server doesn't last long enough for anyone to get the abilities you claim are overpowered.  Everyone can have the exact same skills, abilities, and armor in a week so that takes care of your balance issues.  You can leave meditation alone and those who are adverse to meditation in pvp can play on challenged while the rest of us can enjoy Chaos sans you.  No coding changes necessary and everyone is happy, Rolf you genius!  Problem solved.

Edited December 31, 2014 by madnezz

[Argustin 249]

The "I'm entitled to my opinion" argument ends right around where uninformed nonsense begins. Nerfing gone to 25% is in no way nerfing it to the ground. It's still powerful. You still have 75% health when someone without it is dead, 63% with addy plate or scale, and 51% with glimmer plate (which is still double health). 

 

This ability adds literally nothing to the game play aside from making elite accounts more elite and further widening the gap between newbies and elites, thus making PvP even harder to get into. I was under the impression that PvP should be easier to get into - the direction the game has taken the past couple years seems to point this way. Considering this, I'd would say yes, people who are arguing against this are selfish. It's not all about you... unless you think 20 online on a PvP server is in some way acceptable. I would like to see that grow, but good luck with this attitude toward a simple common sense fix.

So the 20 people online is because of SoTG? And as i don´t agree with your common sense that it is "OP" and should be nerfed i am selfish? Who are you, to tell me that i am selfish and my idea of the balance is wrong? Because you think you are right? OP said very well. 51% of people don´t think it should be changed. AT ALL! Now, tell me if something is so OP it should be changed, wouldnt everyone vote for it? Or you wanna say all of the 55 have SoTG? I don´t have SoTG, but i still voted no. For me it seems more and more that the selfish one is you, as you speak on nerfing and how all the other stuff should be nerfed too. If you think that everything is broken and should be nerfed maybe wurm is not a game for you. There is alot of stuff in Wurm that i think that should be changed, but i don´t go everywhere telling that players who like those aspects or mechanics are wrong. Wurm is too complex to look thru one side and there is no real right or wrong. Also i am getting more and more the feeling that you have a personal vendetta against SoTG. People with personal vendettas usually arent biased. Instead they have one idea in mind and try to push it thru, no matter the cost. Meaning you care about one thing. Get SoTG nerfed. But just nerfing something is far from balance, instead it is just a selfish goal without caring about anything else.

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

They made challenge for your playstyle, leave meditation the way it is on Chaos. Problem solved.

Yeah and with like this epic is turning into chaos 2.0. Gap between new players and super strong account shouldn't be enormous, as stated before, the more strong the account the more usefull sotg is. So it will just create a more enormous gap, epic is supposed to "kinda" easily to catch up normally, but in the long term when tons of players run around with sotg it will make it impossible to catch up or even stand a chance vs the majority. What in the end leaves epic without fresh blood since we dont have the freedom player flow like u folks have on chaos.

Wurm is not just about chaos dude so dont treat it like that.

[madnezz 555]

If you want to change Epic only with your suggestions then make that clear.  I only and will only play on Chaos and any global changes made because of Epic problems should be avoided at all costs.  Each pvp server type can and should have its own code and its own suggestion board.

Edited December 31, 2014 by madnezz

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

Each pvp server type can and should have its own code and its own suggestion board.

I agree

[SmeJack 5,801]

Meanwhile, none of the vocally loudest against gone here pvp on epic. The account is only as good as the person driving it, you could have a high end account with gone and still suck, we have seen this many times. Something I didn't see was people complaining about gone when Agent got it, when Cobb got it, when Naabs got it. Something I did see before I converted and before Gary got gone was people cautious to engage the 'top account' which was the term used in TS when summing up the opposition in local. Now nerfing gone is just a way to pvp outside of the game.

Gone to me just looks like a scapegoat, the latest thing to complain about when feeling threatened.

I've for the most part refrained from sharing my thoughts because it would just be shot down as bias (oh right that gun was already jumped by Nintendo) but I've yet to see gone actually count for anything in pvp, it hasn't saved my life or changed the outcome of any skirmish. I just can't get on board nerfing it to some place equal with a two week worth of skill ability, if that were to happen then insanity really should just be removed as a path because lets face it - who really wants to suck wounds or crash nutrition while randomly teleporting with a sub hate lvl 7 buff for the high end perk...

[Redd 4,281]

Voted no change.

 

Are the non-90fs people gunna complain about 90fs players being op when they cant be bothered to grind it up? Same applies here. Sotg is more or less a skill, it takes 6months to get with some dedication, much like any other skill or group of skills you need to train for PvP.

 

Complaining about something readily available to everyone just makes me laugh. All im reading here is that people cant be arsed to grind to a skill and want those who did to be nerfed.

 

Go play checkers if you want your opponent to the exact same as you.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

Doesn't Challenged take care of all of the issues you have against OP meditation?  The server doesn't last long enough for anyone to get the abilities you claim are overpowered.  Everyone can have the exact same skills, abilities, and armor in a week so that takes care of your balance issues.  You can leave meditation alone and those who are adverse to meditation in pvp can play on challenged while the rest of us can enjoy Chaos sans you.  No coding changes necessary and everyone is happy, Rolf you genius!  Problem solved.

 

Completely invalid. Adding another server isn't an excuse to leave the current ones broken, as many have stated. Epic and Chaos still need to be fixed, not left to force others who don't want the current broken PvP to go to another broken system.

 

So the 20 people online is because of SoTG? And as i don´t agree with your common sense that it is "OP" and should be nerfed i am selfish? Who are you, to tell me that i am selfish and my idea of the balance is wrong? Because you think you are right? OP said very well. 51% of people don´t think it should be changed. AT ALL! Now, tell me if something is so OP it should be changed, wouldnt everyone vote for it? Or you wanna say all of the 55 have SoTG? I don´t have SoTG, but i still voted no. For me it seems more and more that the selfish one is you, as you speak on nerfing and how all the other stuff should be nerfed too. If you think that everything is broken and should be nerfed maybe wurm is not a game for you. There is alot of stuff in Wurm that i think that should be changed, but i don´t go everywhere telling that players who like those aspects or mechanics are wrong. Wurm is too complex to look thru one side and there is no real right or wrong. Also i am getting more and more the feeling that you have a personal vendetta against SoTG. People with personal vendettas usually arent biased. Instead they have one idea in mind and try to push it thru, no matter the cost. Meaning you care about one thing. Get SoTG nerfed. But just nerfing something is far from balance, instead it is just a selfish goal without caring about anything else.

 

20 online because of multiple issues, one of which is game balance as a whole. "Nerf SotG" isn't going to solve everything, but it is necessary. Selfish? SotG only helps those with SotG or allies of those with SotG. Those without it have no comparable option, thus there is, in fact, a balance issue because one "option" is objectively better in theory and in practice than all others. SotG hurts new players that want to try the game (Challenge failed, don't offer that as a crappy alternative). SotG hurts those that don't want to spend a year and a half grinding for one ability. You can get any other combat skills you need and halfway decent body stats in that time, making you perfectly capable as a member of a group.

 

Voted no change.

 

Are the non-90fs people gunna complain about 90fs players being op when they cant be bothered to grind it up? Same applies here. Sotg is more or less a skill, it takes 6months to get with some dedication, much like any other skill or group of skills you need to train for PvP.

 

Complaining about something readily available to everyone just makes me laugh. All im reading here is that people cant be arsed to grind to a skill and want those who did to be nerfed.

 

Go play checkers if you want your opponent to the exact same as you.

 

No one complains about 90 FS because it doesn't give you a godly bonus. It's 2 CR over someone with 80, which isn't that much considering most fights are group fights and other stats can overcome a CR difference. There is no counter to gone. Shield of the gone isn't a skill, meditating is a skill. There are five options at "70 skill", four of which are 100% inferior to the fifth. Once again, that is a balance issue.

 

Also, killing alts doesn't count as grinding fight skill. It's illegitimate and unfair game play.

 

As far as being the exact same, that is what current changes are trying to prevent, and for good reason. The plate/chain nerf was a desperate and failed attempt to encourage the use of lighter armors. We are trying to increase diversity, which gone directly opposes. Gone is the single best. The only people who don't get it are those who have enough honor and moral value to truly stick to their word when they say that shield of the gone is overpowered.

 

EDIT: @ Sme and Gary: Why does your kingdom have to hide the secret information about enlightening if shield of the gone isn't so overpowered? People on PvE and PvP have wanted to know this for ages, and it's being hoarded by a single group of veteran players who claim the power they are protecting isn't that powerful. This seems self-contradictory.

Edited December 31, 2014 by SotG_is_OP

[Maxthx 642]

I changed my vote to 'No Change'.

 

This constant screaming about SotG being overpowered without any constructive advice on how to balance it has changed my opinion. The entire thing is a bunch of hot air and I don't see any reason SotG should be singled out in the PvP balancing argument over other issues.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

The entire thing is a bunch of hot air and I don't see any reason SotG should be singled out in the PvP balancing argument over other issues.

 

I have to agree with this actually. This represents PvP balance as a whole. You can't nerf anything because those who will be getting nerfed balanced will whine in addition to the constant over-nerfs and lack of reversals to changes that were more broken than the features they were meant to patch, which only hurt everyone.

 

To be fair, there was a bit of constructive criticism, but it was ignored and now we have this...

[New_Unsleep 423]

Whoa, this guys name is SotG_is_OP.  Must be one devoted mother to base your forum name off of some radical idea. 

[SotG_is_OP 357]

I didn't get over 400 posts in 7 days, but yes, "SotG_is_OP". The facts prove it, there is absolutely nothing supporting it in its current state except baseless player "opinion" from those who benefit from it in some manner.

 

I decided to find some outside information on game balance, especially in other games or that apply to all games with a PvP element.

 

1. http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions

 

2. (video in spoiler)

 

;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvgZ0qkgGWw

 

3. http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/forum/threadview/2832654490177346114/

 

The OP of this thread is the epitome of the average user of any overpowered feature in any game. He does not understand why what he is using is overpowered and does not admit that it is for two reasons: he does not understand why it is overpowered (as already mentioned), and he does not want his weapon (feature) of choice to be nerfed, making it less effective for him, but making other options more viable in comparison. This user is any multiplayer game's nightmare.

 

4. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-24-cod-developer-appeals-for-calm-after-death-threats

 

The reaction to this situation is absurd. In short, a developer for Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 received death threats for nerfing three in game features (three weapons).

 

5. Personal experience with The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (PvE only, still applicable)

 

You could argue that this is an illegitimate play style for a single player RPG, or even that a single player game can't be compared to a multiplayer game. In some respects, you are right. However, the way you can compound buffs, perks, enchants, and improved gear onto your character with no limits represents a larger overall balance in Wurm. Add followers using the same (to represent allies in Wurm) and things get quite interesting. You can stun-lock and dragon rend even the strongest dragons and have literally zero challenge in killing them, which is supposed to be a very difficult task. This is Wurm PvP overall, not just in regard to shield of the gone.

 

In short, it gets very boring after a while (look at groups who quit, left, or went inactive after long victory runs), and it drives players away from the game or the server when they are constantly met with a challenge that can't be overcome. The population is low because of many broken features that can't be overcome - gone being just one of them. There is no counter or downside to gone - it can't reliably be overcome. Those who are strong get stronger, those who are weak - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. It's quite sad.

 

I gave these examples because they represent games from other genres that I have played that had major balance issues. A little bit of critical thinking and open eyes shows how much these examples all have in common with Wurm Online. The death threat is an extreme, but it shows the lengths to which players go in voicing their dissatisfaction with true game balance.

Edited December 31, 2014 by SotG_is_OP

[SmeJack 5,801]

No information is secret it is all on the wiki and forums, even event message. You're still trying to dramatize and inflate, I've said my piece and I'm done with responding to the theatrics now. I just hope the devs don't get too bored wading through all the nonsense to find anything constructive

[MrGARY 12,421]

EDIT: @ Sme and Gary: Why does your kingdom have to hide the secret information about enlightening if shield of the gone isn't so overpowered? People on PvE and PvP have wanted to know this for ages, and it's being hoarded by a single group of veteran players who claim the power they are protecting isn't that powerful. This seems self-contradictory.

[zukapit 77]

Dont change it, people who work hard for the skill deserve the power that comes with it ! 

 

and if its unbalanced boost the other level 11 powers as was said earlier in the post.

[Shrimpiie 3,665]

I didn't get over 400 posts in 7 days, but yes, "SotG_is_OP". The facts prove it, there is absolutely nothing supporting it in its current state except baseless player "opinion" from those who benefit from it in some manner.

[Maxthx 642]

For a second I saw Shrimpiie had the last post and was worried this thread was locked...

 

Happy New Year!

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

For a second I saw Shrimpiie had the last post and was worried this thread was locked...

Happy New Year!

Dont be scared of the shrimp, he's cuter then u think he is