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Aeris

Tragedy at Silent Hill

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I still wonder why GMs dont interfere with this issue. Is this really the way wurm has to be?

 

The code makes it highly unlikely that griefing will occur. /sarcasm

---

 

EDIT: Oh wait, Nos is responsible? Not very surprising considering the rules that were made because of him. It only took a few months.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/86789-disruptive-player-behaviour-on-serenity-and-desertion/

Edited by SotG_is_OP
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Wonderful isn't it how a town gets looted and suddenly everyone in the game who owns any item even similar to those taken (and holy crap how dare they sell those items again similar to those taken) are suddenly accomplices, not only in the thoughts of players but also in thier auctions and sale adds being trolled by what were in my opinion well respected members of the forum community (you know who you are). In my case ill agree/understand  that the Incredibly unlucky timing in which i attempted to sell fore mentioned similar items was more than likely going to brand me (if i had only known about what was going on) and completely ruin my reputation in wurm(although if you look in the forums i have been selling and buying rare/high ql items for weeks in an attempt much like alot of you to become wealthy ingame). but there are people being trolled trying to sell/auction items that are similar who posted those items before the heist had even happened. (Using this forum thread as a timeline as to when approximately this happened). Again i am terribly sorry for your losses but please be careful with the name and shame so as to maintain your composure and not become shameful yourselves!


Edited by Function

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We have been actively discussing this issue overnight as there are several conflicts that we s a team must address.  I feel this is not in the spirit of Freedom Isles and is griefing.  As Wurm Online is a sandbox game, we want to be very careful about developing our rules as we prefer not to interfere with the open capabilities in the game world. 

 

This is not the last word on this issue.  We are still reviewing certain aspects of this.

Let Aeris arm wrestle the offender, winner gets the items missing, loser gets banned ... simple fix is ask me Enki.

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Another sad day in Wurm. Just another case where the age old mantra "Deed it or Lose it" means nothing and the players on Freedom are


left wondering "WTF" 


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I am on and off online during the hollidays but when i am back i can help imping some stuff if you want help.


 


The players name would be useful, can you send it via pm to me ?


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I'm really sorry to see this happened to you (or anyone on here). I'm even more sorry to see that not only is Wurm's management unable to discourage this type of thing, but neither can Freedom's community (or protect one another from this type of thing, for that matter). While I imagine this isn't always the case, it feels like there's some contradiction between Wurm's policy against griefing (which, as defined, apparently doesn't cover any behavior that could be argued to have a purpose outside of harming other players) and the policy against "naming names" (which, in this case, would more than "arguably" have a constructive purpose).

Also, on the subject of griefing-
 

[11:31:53] You cry over the corpse of old lightningflint.  My poor horse.  He was always so nice to everyone.   :(

At least he didn't kill all our good horses in the pens, just the one in my office.

 

While the thief might argue stealing wasn't griefing (because he got something out of it), this, without a doubt, constitutes griefing. At the very least, he should answer for this (among the other pointlessly aggressive things he no doubt did).

Edited by Zorrent
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Very sorry to hear that, and thank you for the warning.  It's things like this that makes the forums no name and shame rule seem ridiculous.  Reputation used to matter in this game with the small community, and that rule only hinders that community policing.


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We have been actively discussing this issue overnight as there are several conflicts that we s a team must address.  I feel this is not in the spirit of Freedom Isles and is griefing.

As Wurm Online is a sandbox game, we want to be very careful about developing our rules as we prefer not to interfere with the open capabilities in the game world. 

 

This is not the last word on this issue.  We are still reviewing certain aspects of this.

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So sorry for your losses.  Clearly there is an error in the permission designs and I add my voice that this needs to be urgently addressed. 


 


My skill set is kind of weird but if you could use any high ql pottery items or coal to help you recover, just PM me.


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Permission priorities are arcane at best... 


 


As for Wurm's "rules" ... THEY ARE NOT REALLY RULES AND I'VE SAID IT BEFORE, I'LL SAY IT AGAIN... IT FAVORS GRIEFERS.


 


"Using an avatar of an enemy kingdom to collect and loot gear from a raid, corpses, or combatants, is an abuse of game mechanics to remove from play the possibility of an enemy taking or retaking of items in pvp or raiding activities.  This will also be considered a disruptive player behavior."


 


So if it's on PvP, disallowed, but this kind of behaviour is accepted on Freedom?  I call bull.


 


Seems like the solution is still 1 person, 1 deed, everything fenced and double-locked, and if a new players says "looking for village", that player should be met with hostility because IF it IS a thief alt, not only it's all "allowed" BUT the thief is the one with actual protection from the rules since you gotta keep quiet about his name "in case logs are faked".


 


If games with the playerbase size of 2007 Runescape have strongly-enforced "no scamming" rules, what is the supposed logic behind "thieving is allowed, as is scamming, but if you're victim to that, don't you DARE tell your friends in public"?


 


What is the supposed logic behind "if someone goes into your mines, tears up the whole perimeter tunnels, digs up a mess on the perimeter surface, it's allowed... and don't you DARE name him publically"?


 


Along with other examples of crappy logic, extrapolated to real life, parking one's car outside makes stealing it perfectly legal because "you didn't use bulletproof windows", breaking into someone's house is legal because "if he was able to climb up to the second story and go in through your unlocked balcony window, it's your fault", and everyone's backyard is at risk of utilities being tapped into and the whole place dug up to sell the dirt because "it's not fenced with 10-foot walls, so it's your fault" eh?


 


People insured against theft will get their claims with relative ease in these three scenarios, and guy responsible would NOT flaunt it all over the neighborhood because he'd be ARRESTED.  Enter Wurm, where, unlike the police, GM's can even teleport stolen items back, and "tough luck because it's allowed" and "don't you dare spread the word"? 


 


I'm gonna have to ask again, where do I sign up to get discounts of my premium and deed costs for being a griefer?  Because that's what it feels like.

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there is no items up on playerauctions and never will be i never posted anything on any website about playerauctions.

edit: i dont even have a account with that site

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So much about this post kills me.....please explain what your getting at. i wont say it but you can.

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kinda what i thought. Would love to see the mass KOS go out on the party that did this in the mean time, but i doubt they even live on the server.


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He then mocked us by posting on our website that if we want our stuff back we should have to buy it back from him on playerauctions.

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Make sure to always tell in alliance if you are gonna sell a toon, remove all friends and leave village.
We need to give each other a fair chance to protect ourselves from this.

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i pray that these people are rewarded the items back and that this NEVER has to happen again to someone on freedom servers, sorry this happened to you =( :angry:


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Aeris, The English language does not have the words to describe how much I agree with you about the permissions. I have been working in IT for over 15 years now and never have I seen such a poorly designed system of permissions.A complete rework could not come quick enough. I dont blame anyone for not understanding all the implications for setting any of the permissions. But here is the thing, something about this just doesnt seem right. Im not going to go into some tinfoil hat debate, but its just hard for me to believe that all of a sudden, there is this moral outcry against this type of activity when its been going on for years. As far as me being distant therefore Its easy for me to be indifferent, nope, thats not where Im coming from. I have had stuff stolen in such a manner and those that were doing it are now in staff, so for all this "not the spirit of freedom" nonsense and the radical shift in morality I just dont buy.


 


I absolutely feel your loss, i absolutely think there should be better permissions, I 100% agree with your response post earlier, but I also think that under no circumstances should you get those items back through staff measures. I didnt get mine back, all the people I know that got their items stolen didnt get theirs back, why should anyone. The rules are in place, bad as they are, they have been like that for years. If there is going to be a staff measure to address these situations, then it should be that Tich puts the permissions rework as top priority. Again im sorry for the loss and do not condone it.


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Yeah, happened to me as well. This type of play is now encouraged in the game. When the devs are ok with this happening, it encourages it.


Edited by BrandonSF
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I must add my name to the outraged players regarding this issue. If being vocal about it is what finally forces the required changes, then I will do my part. We know that there are disruptive players in all games but in Wurm, the rules seem to not only allow but also defend their behavior. Here is another example, similar to that of Aeris.


 


A bit over a week ago, four of my in-game friends suffered similar losses. A player, along with a small group of like-minded friends, found a way to use a character he purchased to use alliance settings to his advantage to completely clean out three deeds of anything that wasn't part of the landscape. Three of my friends lost all the possessions they had, but the fourth one was even more unfortunate. The perpetrator actually found a way to TAKE OVER his deed. Apparently there is some setting in deed permissions that has the undocumented power that allows someone who knows what they are doing to add your friends to someone else's deed and then change things in such a way that the deed becomes a democracy, which allows you to remove the old mayor and institute a new one - yourself. That's what happened and my friend lost his deed on Xanadu, along with every single item that was in it.


 


The deed permissions are either not clear or not complete. They have undocumented features. We play chess with them, hoping that everything we enable doesn't get us screwed, while a small number of affiliated players with superior knowledge of the permission settings use them to their advantage.


 


That by itself is bad, but what's worse is that the game rules allow this to happen and even after tickets are open, the usual response is that "it is part of the game mechanic". What was the last time we looked at those mechanics, because they seem as useful as the first bulky cell phones with the range of 50 meters? After over a week, my friend did receive the deed back, but not after it was completely wiped out of possessions and shrunk to the minimum of 5x5 tiles. The perpetrator was forced to give the deed back, but was not forced to compensate my friend in any other way. It is up to my friend now to pay for the deed expansion to its original size. The items were never returned.


 


The game mechanics allow such things and the game rules support them. We can't even name the perpetrators publically here to shame them and warn others, because that's against the rules. This will not go away. It will continue. The group of players who are griefing others have a fertile ground to do so for as long as they please, because even the GMs will allow their schemes in the name of not interfering with the game.


 


But the game has been interfered with. Drastically. And no punishments have been issued.


 


This is not the Wurm we came here to play...


Edited by Valdor
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Well, sunsvortex, maybe I haven't read every post as closely as I should have, but I don't think any of the victims have actually requested their stuff be returned (at least, through moderator intervention). The whole purpose of this thread is to warn others of this writ-deed loophole and help sort out where the stolen goods are turning up in hopes of pinning down the individual(s) responsible for this. Some players may have offered to help rebuild, but this seems to have been of their own accord.

And before anyone goes off accusing you of being bitter over having not gotten your items back while others have, I guess it should be pointed out that it's much, much more complicated than that. Right of the tip of my tongue. Before even getting to the subject of replacing these items, there's the process of sorting out what to replace, which will involve either digging through player/world data or taking a player's word for it (which, while in this case, may not be taken advantage of, but can't really be done "case by case"). As far as actual replacements, it will either mean taking the exact items lost and returning them to silent hill (regardless of how many unknowing hands they've passed through) or conjuring replacements to be slipped straight into the game (which, again, would open a flood gate of wrong or out-right false claims and can't easily be done "case by case").

As far as why all of a sudden there's such outcry over this, I guess I haven't been around long and can't be sure similar topics have gone unnoticed, but maybe it's just that Aeris and the others who were hit by this are simply well-known regulars in Freedom's global chat? As cynical as it may sound, that may be what drew the attention that snowballed to the point of catching the eyes of moderators (and let me be clear- I'm not implying he consciously used it to his advantage). Whatever the case, is it really such a bad thing that this issue is getting attention (whether or not it be sudden)? I know you went a good length to make clear you're not complaining, but others not so much.

Its not that these items go unnoticed, its that the rules have been clear for a very long time. Many many people have had this issue and many many people have reported it. The result has always been the same. Technically, according to the rules as they are now, It was the fault of the deed owner for the permission settings. It is generally assumed that any lapse of permissions  will be taken advantage of and that deedowners should protect themselves by making sure that they have them set correctly. To compound that fact, Aeris is a long time player that has run plenty of deeds im sure, so they should know 1. the permissions are crap and have been for years and 2. to be very careful how those are set. Now in Aeris defense thats a load of crap. I doubt there is a single player that knows everything all those permissions allow and all the implications. But the rules are clear, they have been enforced this way for a very long time. In the past if you reported such an event to a GM the answer would have been "you set the permissions wrong, were sorry for your loss but thats the way it goes." Always this has been the way its been resolved. Now Enki comes in and says its being actively discussed....why? Why is it actively being discussed?, why now?, why this instance? So exactly what is being discussed, banning the offender? giving the items back? Why would it be discussed, why now after so many years? Why not wait till Tich changes the permissions? So like I said before, under no circumstances should those items be returned via staff intervention. At the very best the only staff intervention should be to push the issue on the developers to put the permissions fix at the top of the list. Not change / apply the rules at will.

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So is this what this was about?


 


Finding a way to twist the rules to raid a deed on a PvE server.


 


There has been a lot said about changing the rules/permissions or whatever. Personally - I think if house writs overrode all other deed settings, except as far as the Mayor is concerned, this couldn't have happened, and obviously that's something that needs fixing.


 


However - I also think that when people aren't even trying to play the game as intended, and simply look for possibilities to exploit the game mechanics to their own real life monetary advantage this is actual theft. Rolf and the GM team really need to see this for what it is. Sure, if people are careless it's often their own fault - but malicious exploitation to steal stuff that is worth real money? That doesn't deserve a ban, it deserves jail-time.

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So is this what this was about?

 

Finding a way to twist the rules to raid a deed on a PvE server.

 

There has been a lot said about changing the rules/permissions or whatever. Personally - I think if house writs overrode all other deed settings, except as far as the Mayor is concerned, this couldn't have happened, and obviously that's something that needs fixing.

 

However - I also think that when people aren't even trying to play the game as intended, and simply look for possibilities to exploit the game mechanics to their own real life monetary advantage this is actual theft. Rolf and the GM team really need to see this for what it is. Sure, if people are careless it's often their own fault - but malicious exploitation to steal stuff that is worth real money? That doesn't deserve a ban, it deserves jail-time.

 

I agree 100%. Most games have a portion of their ToS that indicates all in-game property remains in ownership of the developing company. Such things are usually used to prevent the sale of in-game items and accounts for real world money. However, in this case, something of monetary value has been taken through clearly unintended means and, while this may be one hell of a leap, there might be grounds for legal action to be taken against the individual(s) behind this, should no such portion exist in Wurm's ToS.

Edited by Zorrent

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Disbanding a deed wasn't done via some building thou, so writs overriding wont help on that


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