Tragedy at Silent Hill

[Bloodscythe 2,225]

I"m very saddened to read this had happened.  not that there is any better time..but gosh around holidays.  not that anyone deserves to be protected more, but  some of the villagers in this village are among the kindest and giving.   

 

in the attempt the keep the game as open and unfettered..i think an unintended  consequence, from what i've seen, is there is alot of room that favors the griefer and thief  in these situations cause of technicalities.  Kinda reminds me some of the US criminal law system..that in some ways gives rights to the offender over the defender unintentionally.

 

perhaps the only good that will come of this is heightened awareness and a chance to maybe  change some of the game rules to further protect innocent parties.  

Edited December 23, 2014 by Greasygrundle

[Firestarter 1,210]

The code makes it highly unlikely that griefing will occur. /sarcasm

---

 

EDIT: Oh wait, Nos is responsible? Not very surprising considering the rules that were made because of him. It only took a few months.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/86789-disruptive-player-behaviour-on-serenity-and-desertion/

There was no doubt that Nos would be involved, I mean it's him, is any other explanation needed?

Edited December 23, 2014 by Firestarter

[Cista 428]

They make the call. Not players. 

 

No, the players make the call, like the person in the thread i linked that called for a player to be banned for placing a deed on the steppe. The GMs make the decision whether a player should be banned or not.

 

Also, I have to repeat, the offender here in the OP committed a theft. He enriched himself very purposefully, which is the opposite of griefing.

If players got wind that they could get other players banned for stealing things within the game mechanics, the GM system would break down. 

Look here, there is no shortage of stories in that thread about things being stolen because of mayors fiddling with the deed permissions 

 

Again, I am not saying that the thief in the OP here did not commit a bannable exploit, and I suspect that something like that happened on Xanadu. But all I have heard in this thread was that he was given permission to bash all houses down, by the mayor. 

(Also, I believe neither the OP here or in the thread I have linked called for a ban? They in fact took responsibility for their own actions).

 

I would really like to leave this thread now lol, again I just have to say that noone has explained to me what was the "bug" and what was the "exploit" in this case.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Cista

[Archaed 2,280]

This is not a bug or an exploit as you seem to be calling for, and has not been named as such. What this is is an abuse of mechanics to generate a situation that is not desired. Someone knowingly joined the village with the only intent to destroy loot and steal goods, which is against the very nature of pve.

 

It is not a question of exploits or which game rules have been broken, it is a question of the spirit of the game rules being violated and whether this is a game where that kind of behaviour is not only tolerated but welcomed.

[Miretta 1,415]

No, the players make the call, like the person in the thread i linked that called for a player to be banned for placing a deed on the steppe. The GMs make the decision whether a player should be banned or not.

 

Also, I have to repeat, the offender here committed a theft. He enriched himself very purposefully, which is the opposite of griefing.

If players got wind that they could get other players banned for stealing things within the game mechanics, the GM system would break down. 

Look here, there is no shortage of stories in that thread about things being stolen because of mayors fiddling with the deed permissions 

 

Again, I am not saying that the thief in the OP here did not commit a bannable exploit, and I suspect that something like that happened on Xanadu. But all I have heard in this thread was that he was given permission to bash all houses down, by the mayor. 

(Also, I believe neither the OP here or in the thread I have linked called for a ban?).

 

I would really like to leave this thread now lol, again I just have to say that noone has explained to me what was the "bug" and what was the "exploit" in this case.

you should really read the WHOLE thread, there are several things being said, of what the player was doing that is not even a question if it was griefing, as example that he wrote those same villagers a message later, that, if they want their stuff back, they have to buy it from him...there is probably even a log about it.

and i don't know where you get your interpretation from griefing from, but how is it "opposite" of griefing to enrich yourself on the cost of other players without them intending to give him anything like that to be enriched from?

griefing means INTENTIONALLY harming other players, it doesn't matter, if he gained something more through it aswell....

 

and then I'm just gonna say it again: he was abusing a flawed/broken game mechanic, that shouldn't have been abusable like that in the first place! house writ settings are ABOVE deed permissions ALL the time, except, for some reason with bashing them, which is making any house writ settings invalid, but THEN the deed permissions should set in, not sure if the mayor was allowing pick up for that "newbie" on the deed permissions, but the last time I had an unfinished house on my own deed, no one could pick anything up.

 

Nontheless, it can not be, that there is not even a warning for mayors, that if they allow destroying of structures, that it would allow EVERYONE to destroy houses when they are neither on the writs, nor owning them or being mayor of that village, while everything else is not allowed to them (like repair or building etc. on that same house)

 

And one last thing....there is already "protection" in place for not giving bad reputation to maybe innocent players, by not allowing their names to be posted on the forums. I think it should also stay that way, the community can always ask for names in PMs, but they should need to put some effort into it. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by Miretta

[Firestarter 1,210]

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/116008-wta-jimmybrasher/

Typical Nosfirebird, selling the account as soon as he's done something against the rules using it, and is then in a position where he may get banned for it.

Nothing new here, just new to you freedomers!

[As_I_Decay 1,592]

Aeris and Elias, I don't have a supreme forge but I have a rare one I want to donate to SH. Will deliver it over the weekend.

Some shiny gems too.

[Sin 220]

Yeah just as Archaed stated there is no bug of any kind in this situation.

I feel really sad for the losses you guys had there, it made me check writs and roles in my village aswell.

This may sound bad but returning items would just make more drama as people who've been robbed before did not get anything back. It is just a way how the game works, got to realise that not everyone is nice and honest.

IMO just another lession you learned that will make you more cautios even IRL.

[Crum 1]

It seems like this would fall under the greifing rules but perhaps I'm wrong? 1 or 2 items perhaps but bashing walls killing horses? People tend to get banned for doing that in pve or so I thought

[Windeee 36]

Before I came to this post I read another post about this with all the names of guys who did this. I can't find it, so i assume it was deleted. If you have proof of the ppl who did this I don't know why we all can't know who they are.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

It's premeditated, carefully planned theft - simple as that - and on PvE all servers it shouldn't be allowed.

 

Remember JKH? Yeah, alt abuse needs serious GM attention on both sides of the game. It's ridiculous that people can keep doing this. It's even worse when they get permabanned, then die in a car crash.

[princesszelda 23]

Oh freedom... please keep nosfirebird over there. I tried to buy the account but the thread was locked.

 

seeing that i needed a character on freedom for a cheep price.

Edited December 23, 2014 by princesszelda

[Marshlander 188]

Also, I have to repeat, the offender here in the OP committed a theft. He enriched himself very purposefully, which is the opposite of griefing.

After reading through this thread I come to a different conclusion. If you just see it as a theft you are ignoring a lot of aspects:

 

The offending party:

1. bought an account to assume some innocent identity

knew about the inconsistencies of deed/writ permissions when it comes to destroy actions

apparently applied to join the deed and gain trust just for the purpose of breaking in

went ahead and misused (no "mistake" about that) the deed settings to bash into all the houses

called for help with carrying all of the now accessible and worthwhile gear away, apparently

is preparing to sell the stuff (apparently)

feels secure enough with the given rules to openly proclaim his actions

There is a very unhealthy combination of aspects here the game that makes the standpoint of "your fault, shouldn't have trusted him / secured your stuff" invalid.

 

The glaring difference between a theft as we see them so regularly and this is that usually, things get taken because a cart/boat/house was left unlocked or a person was given access that they (as an afterthought) shouldn't have had. But here, locked houses were broken into. It was clear that the offender had been given no access to the buildings and items, but had a means - through bashing - to gain those, on deed.

 

On PvE as we all know, lockpicking is disabled (except writ-owners/mayors). This mechanic means that locked-away stuff should be - for all intents and purposes until someone gets a key or the container/building decays - secure. I don't think there's even a permission setting that will allow others to lockpick.

 

The permissions system is poorly documented and clearly not consistent. Although it is bugged in some cases (some example was given earlier) I don't think it's a bug in this case. It's just a poorly implemented all-or-nothing affair. Someone needs to take down their fence-building mistakes? Give them the right to destroy everything on deed... hm.

 

The interactions between deed and writ settings are inconsistent with the destroy action. To think that every player should use numerous alts to experiment with the different combinations of deed and writ settings and the effectively permissible actions in each case (mayor/villager/non-villager & owner/guest/non-guest, combined with access, pickup, move, drop, attach locks, destroy...) is just ludicrous (especially with destroying)! So we have to expand on what we do know and hope that it's pretty much consistent for other cases. For pickup it's probably well-known that unless you have guest permissions for a house you cannot pickup stuff on the open porch of a building, even if you have deed pickup rights (well as long as the building is intact). So writs deal with buildings, and they override deed permissions.... not consistent with the fact that anybody can - as I (and many others) just learned from this thread - bash a house without any writ settings and just deed permissions.

 

It's also not consistent with the 100% protection given to locked-up stuff on PvE by all other game mechanics.

 

But, yeah, at least we can buy the stuff back on playerauctions.com now. Anonymously.

 

I think game mechanics and their documentation are at fault here. I also believe that sandbox games should allow players to become a criminal (in game only, of course) and show off their creativeness in that arena, if they are willing to face the consequences. But in order for that to be interesting, there needs to be a way to outsmart the owners without resorting to misleading and ill-documented game mechanics interactions and hiding behind bought accounts to conspire, and some way for the community to apply reasonable consequences (different ones for PvE than for PvP, obviously, perhaps things like bill-boards where the names of outlaws are displayed, and can be automatically copied to a minimal, lock-out deed permissions group or kos list, idk).

 

But then give us a means to check effective permissions on any tile/door/container. Give us more differentiated (and consistent!) permissions settings. Give us a functional tracking skill. Give us warnings when we invite a new villager and have some potentially destructive permissions on. Give us social means in-game to label offenders / warn others without the need to stir up so much drama on the forums.

 

It's just a broken system otherwise of mistakes waiting to be made that's stacked in favour of the offenders.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Marshlander

[Raamkozijn 201]

 the fact that anybody can - as I (and many others) just learned from this thread - bash a house without any writ settings and just deed permissions.

I'm one of those "many others".

I've never even heard any other CA mention the setting being for ALL structures ondeed rather than needing the writ (or be a guest on said writ) to be able to bash ondeed as not-mayor in almost 3 years of playing this game, either.

 

The whole idea of players experimenting with items and actions to get to get a better understanding rather than cookiecutter details from the devs has something to it, but NOT when it comes to security game mechanics.

Those should be disclosed with proper dev explanations, limitations, etc. When (deed) setting mechanics are changed, it should get covered by devs to update properly, as well.

Without proper and detailed information in that regard, it's simply not doable to protect yourself properly without simply disallowing everything and becoming complete hermits and KoS every single living being, just to make sure a setting doesn't have some undisclosed mechanics. And even then just pray disallowing even breathing on your deed will suffice to keep you safe.

 

I'm glad the few villagers I had were good people as I had them allowed to bash houses so they could bash their own as well. No bloody way I'll go for villagers again, just to be safe.

I'll also have to cancel my plans of joining an alliance, who knows what undisclosed mechanics might show up all of a sudden with that.

 

A pity.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Raamkozijn

[Audrel 2,223]

I am watching this closely. I don't know how many others are with me, but the outcome of this will determine if I start chucking everything I own into altars and end with a disband of bare packed dirt. I have had it with the griefers and exploiters rule all on freedom and the honest players are shafted in the middle because they didn't understand a setting that is nowhere explained by the staff who programmed it but rather guesses by players and without said explanation it is working as intended because it can't be proven to be exploited. Certain staff had no problem stepping in to assist broken code preventing stealing. Where is that staff to step in and put a wall back that should not have come down?

 

Yeah, I said it.

[Aeris 3,751]

I'm saddened to see that a couple of people have lost so much faith in the GM ruling that instead of demanding justice for themselves they demand that the rest of us should not have it. This topic wasn't started with any sort of intention of portraying anyone else's loss as "less" than ours. If anything I'd like for your cases to be reviewed again because I do not think that griefing and/or abusing game mechanics should be tolerated in any case, especially not on a PvE server where we cannot win against people who have all the abusable functions figured out already. I feel for your losses as well and hope that you get the justice that you deserve, and also that people who cause so much grief will be banned.

We wanted to warn people about this so that it doesn't happen to anyone else because I'll tell you this - It was not a pleasant experience. Unfortunately we learned after it happened that this wasn't the first time so awareness about the circumstances needed to be raised to prevent further abuse. Changing the deed settings won't disable their behaviour but it will at least make you harder to target.

We also wanted to make it harder for the thieves to sell our goods by making it known publicly because we do not think that they deserve to make money off of other people's items. The community as a whole has been very helpful and we're really moved and thankful for all the support we've been given

I am watching this closely. I don't know how many others are with me, but the outcome of this will determine if I start chucking everything I own into altars and end with a disband of bare packed dirt.

Lol this comment made me think of something ironic in a horrifying way that Froggeryz said yesterday:

"Imagine, if we'd stored our items in an offdeed house they'd still be there now"

Edited December 23, 2014 by Aeris

[Audrel 2,223]

Lol this comment made me think of something ironic in a horrifying way that Froggeryz said yesterday:

"Imagine, if we'd stored our items in an offdeed house they'd still be there now"

 

The saddest part about that is that he is right.

[Raamkozijn 201]

Lol this comment made me think of something ironic in a horrifying way that Froggeryz said yesterday:

"Imagine, if we'd stored our items in an offdeed house they'd still be there now"

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

Freedom problems lol, there is just some stuff stolen, it's not the end of the world.

Imagine a valrei event hits ur deed? That's much worse to happen coz u also have to rebuild it all. Also why didn't u store all ur worthy stuff in a reinforced mine with a nice mine door?

[Garit 366]

Come on guys we all know what should happen here.....they should all be band, items taken from them and returned FULL STOP !!!

Everyone here (even if it's happened to others and nothing was done) knows what's right and wrong....there's no getting around that.

 

We all sit here and talk about whats within the rules and such but the case here is "Whats right".....and if it does not change here ...it never will.

When you start the game it says "Be careful as your stuff can be stolen...so take care to lock up your gear"

But when your not on a deed and try to pick up stuff it says " Stealing is not allowed on the Freedom servers" - so which one is is Rolf ?

 

These Dirtbags DID steal items....they didn't just pick stuff up off the ground outside....they had to smash there way into player houses to take items....(is is what happens over on Chaos for god sake) they also waited for all other player to be off-line when they did it - COME ON PEOPLE WHY ARE WE EVEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ?

 

So......Rolf / Dev's..... FIX YOUR BROKEN ASS GAME !!!! stop making new server just to cream in more cash and FIX IT.

Rolf you know what is the right thing to do here....we ALL do so STOP thinking of the cash and grow a pair of balls and do something to help keep your true good player base.

Scumbags come and go....that's what they do but good players stay cus they love your game......if your not careful your going to end up with a broken ass game and next to no players.

 

And to Lady Aeris....i am truly sorry for what has happened here .....this type of thing destroys the the game is all about - players playing the game with each other.

I really hope you get your stuff back. Also if there's anything i can help you with pls PM Garit in-game or over the Forum.

[Audrel 2,223]

Freedom problems lol, there is just some stuff stolen, it's not the end of the world.

Imagine a valrei event hits ur deed? That's much worse to happen coz u also have to rebuild it all. Also why didn't u store all ur worthy stuff in a reinforced mine with a nice mine door?

[Guruen 273]

Freedom problems lol, there is just some stuff stolen, it's not the end of the world.

Imagine a valrei event hits ur deed? That's much worse to happen coz u also have to rebuild it all. Also why didn't u store all ur worthy stuff in a reinforced mine with a nice mine door?

[whykillme 1,621]

Freedom problems lol, there is just some stuff stolen, it's not the end of the world.

Imagine a valrei event hits ur deed? That's much worse to happen coz u also have to rebuild it all. Also why didn't u store all ur worthy stuff in a reinforced mine with a nice mine door?

[conmcb25 378]

Crap like this is the reason I am a grumpy old hermit on my deeds.

[LorenaMontana 3,008]

whykillme, a new player that's just invited on a deed isnt likely to bash a high ql steel mine door alone or cast a very high disintegrate cast when the only right they have is destroy buildings, u can also just put a merchant in that mine and put ur stuff on that.

Just saying and no this is no offence: its not the end of the world and if u really want ur safe, store it not in a house coz there will always be fuckers like this.