Beg, Borrow, Steal, then Wurmify

[sunsvortex 599]

So while I was in Archeage I kept running into cool things I thought would make a world of difference in Wurm. I kept seeing things and then thinking , that would have been cool in Wurm.....so I thought Id throw them out here and maybe if they see other companies using them, maybe they can adapt a Wurmified version. After all the best ideas are stolen, and they have a track record of successes and failures one can look at without it having to be such a gamble.

 

So here we go - this first image is a SS i took early on and it had Wurm written all over it.

 

 

So we have 3 items here Windmills, Waterwheels and a chat devoted to the Criminal system.

 

Windmills and Waterwheels are purely asthetic in AA however could EASILY be made a central part of the infrastructure in Wurm. I think any self respecting large scale farmer would welcome such additions even if they start out as purely asthetic while mechanics were debated and implemented. Would also be cool to be able to put in irrigation via lead pipes. We need something to do with lead besides make anchors. Adding in water wheels and then let them flush water through fields for extra yield would be a pretty cool addition as far as I am concerned. Add in a windmill for grain grinding or quite frankly all manner of early machinery would also be quite a nice addition. Personally though just getting them in with a nice animation of the veins turningin the wind would be a great start.

 

Now the criminal Justice system - its badly executed in AA but the overall concept of having a criminal justice system is quite interesting and I think a wurmified version would work out quite well and if setup correctly, has the potential to remove a lot of the policing done by GM's.

 

ON to the next pic....which admiditly has nothing to do with the post, (OOps I forgt it does have a little to do with it) i was just surprised to find Johan hanging out in AA giving out quests

 

 

There he is...all slumped over, depending on his walking cane, beat down by the Wurm forums he has been forced to hand out quests in AA, so sad.

 

So trade packs, its a cool idea in AA -you make these things up and take them to traders in certain areas that depending on where you sell them, you can get gold, or items that are used in crafting. Wurm needs a good trade system, it always has, there needs to be reasons to ship large bulk items to various servers, there needs to be better rationales for growing thousands of farmed goods other than feeding priests.

 

AA does it like so - you grow the stuff to make a trade pack, buy a cert and then craft it. pick the thing up and slowly deliver it to the traderof your choice. The longer the route the more you can sell it for. They also add in a % fluctuation in price depending on how many people are actively trading the particular pack. There are many different types of packs from different areas of the server so if a lot of people are trading cheese for instance, you may be better off trading duck feathers as the price for cheese may be dropping due to oversupply. Now im not saying blanket copy anything, what im saying is that If say we filled a corbita to holds capacity with corn and then ship that supply to say some trader on  xanadu and say once we got there the trader might not even offer coin, they may offer bartered goods instead, say you could trade your corn for something that was selling on your server, say Iron ore for instance. The whole idea is to have trade, a large trade network not completely dependent but highly dependent on players.

 

Next suggestion is to allow custom logos

 

 

Here is one I made in AA and it can be used on my ship sails or my cape or both. Its a simple matter of creating a 256x256 img and placing it in the correct folder, going to a bench and creating a little ink vial then you can apply that to your sails or capes or even house items or clothing you may have. I see no reason why Wurm couldnt do the very same. It was a very popular feature in AA and to everyones surprise its not being abused but very rarely. Rarely ever do you see anything far out of range of what would be expected, mostly its all guild logos or personal logos, some sports pics and such. But the coolest thing is that you can go out in the game world ...take Sceen Shots and then buy frames. You can make your own artwork...to me thats the best thing about it. I had all kinds of SS I took in game as artwork for my house. I think in Wurm one could build a community art gallery and have people donate thier works of art they make, or just make your own to place in your house. Either way it falls into the idea of the players are creating the content.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Tpikol 1,057]

well i have to having trials and having the victim on the jury sounds terrible to me.

 

 

and custom logos in wurm would end up with dicks everywhere

Edited December 15, 2014 by Tpikol

[sunsvortex 599]

well i have to having trials and having the victim on the jury sounds terrible to me.

 

 

and custom logos in wurm would end up with dicks everywhere

Exactly why I said AA's execution was bad, its the concept of having a criminal justice system that would be pretty cool if setup correctly.

 

As for the porn pics..they are very rare in AA, and are removed with players immediately banned for it. So its not a problem at all in game that banned over 17000 bots and has a player base in the 10's of thousands. I dont think it would be an issue in wurm to have custom logos.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Brash_Endeavors 4,735]

Now the criminal Justice system - its badly executed in AA but the overall concept of having a criminal justice system is quite interesting and I think a wurmified version would work out quite well and if setup correctly, has the potential to remove a lot of the policing done by GM's.

 

One of the problems with a criminal justice system, is that in the game it glorifies the profession of a badboy criminal. I think it was Wurm that once experimented with having people branded as "outlaws" if they caused too much trouble, and the result was, people dedicated their gamelife to being as badboy as they could be. 

 

IE: a "well done" criminal justice system can actually lead to much more crime. Because it suddenly becomes more fun, especially if the entire community is now aware of you. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Brash_Endeavors

[sunsvortex 599]

One of the problems with a criminal justice system, is that in the game it glorifies the profession of a badboy criminal. I think it was Wurm that once experimented with having people branded as "outlaws" if they caused too much trouble, and the result was, people dedicated their gamelife to being as badboy as they could be. 

 

IE: a "well done" criminal justice system can actually lead to much more crime. Because it suddenly becomes more fun, especially if the entire community is now aware of you. 

Lots of people like to do just that. EVE online supports it and even advertises it, AA is doing it via Pirates, why not do it. The problem has been in the past with wurm, poor execution. Learn from past mistakes and take a look at other games to see how they are doing it. See if its working and where its not, then wurmify it. And ultimately wouldnt it be better to have those that have a penchant for griefing people be seperated in some manner from the population of players who dont. AA does it by putting them in jail and they must stay in jail for x amount of time while online. Offline time doesnt count. After 3000 criminal points and 1 conviction you are thrown into the pirates, all other factions are now enemy and youll loose all your stuff on the other lands as you can no longer access them. Now your a pirate and have your own areas and you can roam the seas preying on anyone you choose, seperated but yet still part of the game population. If Wurm were to put something along those lines in but much better executed I think it would be a welcome addition.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Outlaw 697]

A criminal system is already fully in place in Wurm.

It's called the community.

There are many people who try to steal or screw people over...they usually end up quitting because the player base turns against them.

 

Wurm is more about co-operation. Kingdom vs. Kingdom rather than people fighting within their own kingdom. (Sure it happens and it causes drama, but things get worked out 99% of the time without any sort of in-game rules or systems other than KOS)

 

As for on the non-pvp islands, people don't want criminals, so why make a system that allows/promotes them? (Also, the built in rules make it near impossible to just steal from someone...you have to gain their trust, build friendships and get permissions to steal from people, other than stealing the odd cart that has been abandoned)

 

Trust me, I know. I'm THE Outlaw.

 

As for the 'automation' such as windmills/waterwheels, they have been suggested time and time again, always turned down. I agree they would look nice aesthetically, but I don't think anything beyond that is in the cards for Wurm. (Also, with the current lack of flowing rivers, waterwheels are useless to us anyway)

Edited December 15, 2014 by Outlaw

[Kagrenac 812]

After 3000 criminal points and 1 conviction you are thrown into the pirates, all other factions are now enemy and youll loose all your stuff on the other lands as you can no longer access them. Now your a pirate and have your own areas and you can roam the seas preying on anyone you choose, seperated but yet still part of the game population. If Wurm were to put something along those lines in but much better executed I think it would be a welcome addition.

[Evilvision 301]

Well back before Freedom that's what we had. Once your rep dropped your butt got sent to Hots on Wild. Now granted back then we had a limited amount of converts so if the person used them all up they were stuck Hots. These days it would mostly be a inconvenience of having to find their way back from chaos since we no longer have the limited converts.

[sunsvortex 599]

So... Hots

[Ayes 3,715]

There is no "good" system for having outlaw types allowed within online games. This just allows other individuals who have a desire to upset other players to have an avenue available to do so condoned by the game mechanics. Wurm has pvp for those types and it should continue to be restricted there and not infect the PvE servers, where the norm is to not mess with others for some sort of strange satisfaction.

 

The GM's here have enough to do with even the minor disputes that arise on the PvE servers under the current circumstances and what you suggest Sunsvortex would only add to that. Best to keep the pvp creeping from finding avenues into the PvE aspects of Wurm, as the current separation serves it fairly well.

 

=Ayes=

[Kagrenac 812]

Well thats very much like the way AA does it, however as I have said, in AA its very poorly executed, same in WURM, its poorly executed, as well as in WURM its only for the pvp side. Needs to work universally. I like the idea of a jail really. One per server, where people can spend thier online time being pissed about being in there...lol.

Which kinda makes sense, as AA is PvP, and the crimes I see from my brief look are all PvP.

I really don't see how adding a "jail" would improve gameplay, and it kinda would go against the whole everything is playermade thing wurm does.

[sunsvortex 599]

Which kinda makes sense, as AA is PvP, and the crimes I see from my brief look are all PvP.

I really don't see how adding a "jail" would improve gameplay, and it kinda would go against the whole everything is playermade thing wurm does.

AA is not all pvp in the same way eve is not all pvp. It has safe zones and AA is very much laid out like eve in that it has gradient pvp. Safe zones, not so safe zones and full pvp zones. Indeed a lot of the crimes are pvp related purple kills ie going player killer being the most prevelant. You also had crimes in safe zones as well. An example - I go and plant trees somewhere on the server thats not on my land that I own. Someone watches me and as soon as I am done and leave they go behind me and dig up all the trees. Well every time this happens they leave a set of footprints - bloody footprints that "anyone" can click on and report the crime. Each report then adds 1 point to thier crime points. The next time they die in pvp they can choose either a trial or go directly to jail to pay for thier transgressions. Now thats the way AA has it set up. the more crime points I have when this happens the longer my sentence has the possibility of being. You can choose not to go to trial and youll immediatly be sent to jail or you can choose a trial by your peers (whom are chosen randomly). The reason in the pic i posted you see the accuser in the jury is that it was early on in the game and you have to be 30th level and do a special quest in order to be on the jury, so very few jurors were actually available at that time.

 

So for WURM purposes it could be that there is just a jail. If someone does x then after x amount of points they are teleported to a jail and must stay there for x amount of time. Or something similar or along those lines. It doesnt have to be overly complex, one simply needs a way to identify transgressions and assign points based on the severity of said transaction. How thats done is really irrelavent, only that it can be done to one extent or another.

 

How it makes gameplay better is that it allows one to play the criminal, the bad boy, the pirate, the misfit, the social outcast, the witch, whatever desciptor you want to use, it provides a base structure to allow this type of play, since lets face it, griefers going to grief no matter what. It gives them a legitimate place within the community and as long as its setup correctly a way to interact with the rest of the community without a lot of friction.

 

Eve has a universal system for allowing those playstyles, AA has a universal system for allowing it, and I see no reason why WURM shouldnt have a universal system to allow it.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sunsvortex

[sunsvortex 599]

There is no "good" system for having outlaw types allowed within online games. This just allows other individuals who have a desire to upset other players to have an avenue available to do so condoned by the game mechanics. Wurm has pvp for those types and it should continue to be restricted there and not infect the PvE servers, where the norm is to not mess with others for some sort of strange satisfaction.- but this allready happens. When you apply scale ie more players it becomes more of an issue. When land and resources become more scarce, when people infringe upon the assumed areas of ownership, it happens. Simply saying go to the pvp servers is a very insular, rude elitist, conform or be cast out way to do things and is part of one of the fundamental issues with WURM when you hear about people talking about its community. Its a simple matter of tolerance, and the WURM community has never been accused of being tolerant to my knowledge.

 

The GM's here have enough to do with even the minor disputes that arise on the PvE servers under the current circumstances and what you suggest Sunsvortex would only add to that. Best to keep the pvp creeping from finding avenues into the PvE aspects of Wurm, as the current separation serves it fairly well. Actually it would do just what it has done on AA and EVE...it would lessen the load as you have a way again If properly setup and thought through to allow the community to handle the largest share of transgressions. This is something that can be quantified and is factual.

 

=Ayes=

Also one more item to edit in here -lets say a trial by peers was available and the person on trial was found guilty and sentenced to x amount of time in said jail that they must serve online. This removes many decisions GM's must make and absolves them of having to constantly defend thier positions vs any number of decisions they have made. Since the community is delving out the punishments all a GM has to do is look at the verdict and do a teleport. They are removed from the picture and you can gain a concensus on guilt or innocense vs having a single person play god judge and jury. How many times I have seen people accuse GM's or staff of being biased, how often when I was in staff did we have to discuss the "Hows this going to look if we make x decision". It would greatly simplify things from a GM or staff perspective.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Youngsoldier 282]

We used to have wurm court way back when.

[Klaa 4,872]

Logos

Always felt custom heraldry, logos, or whatever would make for a good moneysink, and it is sort of ingame already for pmks: flags and the like. Unfortunately its not yet implemented with ships; though, there's been dev talk about it and the game already tracks which kingdom the owner is in (comes up in ship theft).

 

Afterall in the case of pmk custom graphics, which are already implemented, and even if the gfx file is of the proper format and the like, the dev team still has a bit of work to do before adding the image (the fee is included in the pmk founding cost.)

 

Justice

Justice wise, theres the reputation lost system triggered by performing thievery acts near guards and players. Course pvp servers have a frontier justice system as its a kill or be killed mentality, supported by social interactions with other players.

 

Players actually could set up their own trial and jury system if they so wished; however, atm its more along the lines of vigilante justice.

 

Mills

As far as wind and water power. here is my customary rant for such threads:

 

Any automation be it powered by wind, water, heat, or whatever should provide little, if any, skill gain to offset the increased ease of production. Tech levels are still pretty crude and quality control nonexistent, so even if the ql of the system parts (and the system as a whole) were created by a maxed out craftsman (would have to be highly skilled to begin with), the produced product would still be at a lower ql than what can be potentially created by hand.

 

Now Im not too crazy about having entire structure objects like a guard tower. Rather have such be more of a modification for existing player built structures, axles running through windows or specialized walls. Course there would be requirements: windmill blades would have to be placed high enough, waterwheels in submerged tiles, etc.

 

Each power source would contribute so much according to its type and ql. Gears and axles eating up the power by their respective ql, thus inefficiency. Of course, levers and pulleys. Players can then hook up any number of whatever is desired, limited by the total power.

 

This can consist of saws, mixers, grinders, bellows (for fires), and the sky is the limit. Players of the Dwarf Fortress game would be familiar with this, the game pretty much nailed the crude mechanical concept.

 

Overall the construction should be made very resource and skill intensive. The relationship between power transfer and ql should be such that very high ql components are desired.

 

EDIT: Course this would probably require a whole new skill tree for mechanics. I cannot think of any existing main skill that would even come close. For assembling the final system that is. The individual components would come from various existing crafts.

 

EDIT EDIT: Oh yeah mechanic skillset should also include maintenance for replacing worn out components. Naturally the more the system is used, the faster stuff wears out. Lubricants would also be a heavy requirement.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Klaa

[Kadore 926]

The trial system in AA was a joke tbh, guilty or innocent is directly tied to how many friends and guildies you have on the jury when it's your turn.

 

I could easily see the same mess in Wurm.

 

As far as structures I like a lot of the ideas LiF uses for buildings, even if Wurm was to just add more wall types to tie into the existing ones, I think it's in the planning stages currently but haven't kept up lately.

 

As far as logos it be nice to put up a large number to select from allowing color changes through in game dye?, at least with a wide variety of presets you could get something you can easily live with if not exactly what you want vrs getting ganked by a knarr with the Village People on the sail.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kadore

[Klaa 4,872]

Timber and white stucko was most recently added in the wall types, and Portcullis for doors, etc. Also newer stone wall variations added for more castle tower looks, including narrow embrasures (arrow slits).

 

Not sure if theres plans for more wall and fence types; although, a fortress/castle type wall thick as a tile would be handy, would have to be built on the ground and not on top player housing. Could function as the base for tower housing and fences.

 

Perhaps some varaitions with a narrow tunnel walkway or deep set shaft windows

Edited December 16, 2014 by Klaa

[Kadore 926]

Timber and white stucko was most recently added in the wall types, and Portcullis for doors, etc. Also newer stone wall variations added for more castle tower looks, including narrow embrasures (arrow slits).

 

Not sure if theres plans for more wall and fence types; although, a fortress/castle type wall thick as a tile would be handy, would have to be built on the ground and not on top player housing. Perhaps some varaitions with a narrow tunnel walkway or deep set shaft windows

I think they are continually working on it as other projects get completed, Challenge, bridges etc. 

[sunsvortex 599]

Only issue isaw with the new wall types was since the trim is removed, on large buildings, you loose a lot of detail as the bricks in the wall textures are too small. Id like to see a version of the new trimless wall types with a bigger stone so that the detail is not lost on larger structures.

[sunsvortex 599]

The trial system in AA was a joke tbh, guilty or innocent is directly tied to how many friends and guildies you have on the jury when it's your turn.

 

I could easily see the same mess in Wurm.

 

As far as structures I like a lot of the ideas LiF uses for buildings, even if Wurm was to just add more wall types to tie into the existing ones, I think it's in the planning stages currently but haven't kept up lately.

 

As far as logos it be nice to put up a large number to select from allowing color changes through in game dye?, at least with a wide variety of presets you could get something you can easily live with if not exactly what you want vrs getting ganked by a knarr with the Village People on the sail.

Its not really about guilt or innocence, its about getting players to not even get cloose to the line, and if they do and do it enough they are banished to x. AA's version definately needs some work, but I think they need to get about 100 other items fixed first, like keeping the servers up, fixing exploits, yada yada yada.

Edited December 16, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Kadore 926]

Its not really about guilt or innocence, its about getting players to not even get cloose to the line, and if they do and do it enough they are banished to x. AA's version definately needs some work, but I think they need to get about 100 other items fixed first, like keeping the servers up, fixing exploits, yada yada yada.

[Wraithglow 787]

 

 

So for WURM purposes it could be that there is just a jail. If someone does x then after x amount of points they are teleported to a jail and must stay there for x amount of time. Or something similar or along those lines. It doesnt have to be overly complex, one simply needs a way to identify transgressions and assign points based on the severity of said transaction. How thats done is really irrelavent, only that it can be done to one extent or another.

[sunsvortex 599]

Anything which you can "identify as transgressions" in a PvE environment should simply be blocked by the game mechanics.(which it isnt....and thiswill never happen....as every single mmo in existence can attest to. There will always be those that dont see eye to eye with your particular version of morality and good fair gameplay. Thier money spends just as good as yours.) When you talk about being the "bad boy", "outlaw" etc you are talking about deliberately playing opposed to other players and the community at large. That's not some cool feature, that's either PvP or it's griefing and there's no place for it in Wurm's PvE environment imo.( Please dont try and explain to me what I am saying...I know exactly what the hell i am saying. No it has nothing to do with playing opposite to the community at large. The idea that you think you can just throw out anyone that doesnt conform to your ideas of fair play is ludicrist and yet another example of how insular this community is. There will always be people who grief, there will always be people that like to play different than others, there is no way to make them all go away, you cannot change people. What you can do is try and accomodate them as last I looked thier money is just as good as yours. If a way is developed to accomodate these people and use them to further enhance areas of gameplay then its a win win win. A win for the game as it will gain more players, a win for the players that like to play this way, and a win for everyone else who benifit from the extra cash flow into CC pocket so they can continue to develop the game. Im really sick of the insular self righteous ###### that spews out every time anyone supports adding different playstyles. Who are you to think your peroggative is superior. Your no one, and this insular little 13 year old attitude needs to be removed from the game...completely. Grow up!)

 

All the things that sadly can't be easily blocked by code also therefore couldn't be easily identified by code.(You dont have a clue what the code looks like and neither do I , so really enough of the implying you have some insight as to how complex it is or how its written.Psycologists have a name for what you are doing - its called argumentation from ignorance...and its a real thing, click the link, see for yourself.) So it requires manual intervention, hence GMs. To give all the GM tools to players to use and decide if someone is guilty or not (the only way to avoid it being he-said she-said) would be outright madness.

 

Edit: Wurm's got bans for players rather than "jails", and are frankly a much better deterrent.

 

There are things called facts. These things can be pretty stubborn so when talking about adding in such a system is often handy to take a look at the facts, since I have cited two different popular successful MMO's that both have such a system, and both have integrated such a system in 2 entirely different ways, and both implementations of the same concept are popular amongst the general population it then becomes very visible that these concepts work, they are benificial to the game and community. Otherwise why would they be in existence if they didnt have a benificial affect?

 

Dont get me wrong, if you dont like the Concept, thats perfectly fine. That doesnt need any further explanation. you dont like what you dont like...perfectly fine....dont try to make up pseudo facts and spins to try and justify / sell your position.

Edited December 17, 2014 by sunsvortex