To PvE: Why don't you PvP?

[KunAlt 844]

I think any game where you need to rely in zerging to survive at pvp its broken for the very beginning.

[Cornchips 3,037]

These kind of threads usually really irk me, because there's so many misconceptions that just come out and people act like they really happen or are really true, like "I get spawn killed, don't want to lose EVERYTHING OH GOD I have, etc."

 

One way to compare it for a freedom minded aspect is saying something like

 

'Oh, i'll never be able to get a 90 skill or be able to even compete in the market of selling stuff, because people have been around for years on freedom, and already do that."

 

I'm pretty sure anyone that just understands basic stuff will see well, that's not really true. You will eventually get good skills and if you put stuff up on the market and for sale, it will sell in due time.

 

Just like that statement above about just misunderstanding stuff, but on the freedom side, literally 99% of the stuff people spew out about chaos,epic, and now challenge are just untrue. 

 

You'll get everything you'd ever need from the groups you join up with, because being apart of a group, you're only as strong as the weakest person in the end, so everyone makes huge efforts to get everyone anything, and stockpile stuff for later on, there won't be some sudden gear shortage or you running around naked wildly getting slaughtered somewhere.

 

The next part of this is just you have to experience the first time to truly understand the feeling of how fun it is to fight people in huge battles, or small skirmishes where small things and decisions matter, you can't really describe it to someone who's never experienced it the fun that comes out of it and the feelings.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Cornchips

[Wurmhole 3,650]

No, never, not going to happen. I like believing people are good and when in a game, I still want to believe it. In pve, that holds true most of the time. In pvp, there is no way around the fact that killing your neighbors is the goal. Thos bothers me.

Also, notice how the poll shows that the pvp community negativity is a major factor. But I would not expect otherwise, considering how much death and loss pvp deals with every day.

I play wurm to create, to help, to live happy. Not to kill and destroy.

[Tpikol 1,057]

These kind of threads usually really irk me, because there's so many misconceptions that just come out and people act like they really happen or are really true, like "I get spawn killed, don't want to lose EVERYTHING OH GOD I have, etc."

 

i guess its hard to you people to believe but not everybody enjoys the same things you do,not matter how much you force them to do it.

 

the misconceptions i see are on pvp player that think the only reason everybody else its not playing in pvp is for stupid reason like not wanting to be killed.

 

how about the fact that most of the pvp on wurm its complaining on the forums and making trolling accounts to get the rules changed to whatever beneficts you and screws up everybody else on pvp and pve.

[SotG_is_OP 357]

While I respect the opinions of people who wouldn't PvP regardless, there are some who may want to but are hesitant. Many players have pointed out the misconceptions, and that is partially why I made this post. This is a precursor to a thread that explains common misconceptions, the facts, and how to deal with them.

 

http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/115061-getting-into-pvp-facts-and-misconceptions/

 

Check that out. Hopefully you may learn something new or surprising.

[whykillme 1,621]

Whys there no option to vote for devs/gms involving in PVP to much, not giving full information to ALL kingdoms when a GAMECHANGING CHANGE is being released only to the knowledge one kingdom and not ALL kingdoms and the huge favorism is given to certain kingdoms?

 

Needs adding to your misconceptions aswell i guess?

Edited December 7, 2014 by whykillme

[MrGARY 12,421]

I see the raiding when offline option getting some attention.  While I can't speak for chaos, I can say on epic, raiding deeds doesn't really happen.  People will try to raid capital deeds from time to time, but that's for an obvious reason, it's the enemy's capital, they have good stuff, and it's about striking at the enemy where it can hurt.  But even then, take our capital city that has been around for years.  It's been attempted to be raided like, maybe 5 times or so?  And only one was really successful at anything, and any loss was pretty much not even noticed within a few days because we all helped each other out, allies gave horses, we all made each other new things.  But remember, that's once in years in a capital deed that's going to draw that attention to it.

 

If you make a deed on a home server that isn't a wooden house with fences that takes 20 seconds to get to the token and near the water, you're probably not ever going to be raided.  The longest surviving deed on desertion?  It's been raided a grand total of zero times.  That's not to say you won't ever get raided, there's always just horrible luck, but it just isn't really likely if you take any sense of precaution.  And if you don't know?  Just ask people for help

 

i guess its hard to you people to believe but not everybody enjoys the same things you do,not matter how much you force them to do it.

 

the misconceptions i see are on pvp player that think the only reason everybody else its not playing in pvp is for stupid reason like not wanting to be killed.

 

how about the fact that most of the pvp on wurm its complaining on the forums and making trolling accounts to get the rules changed to whatever beneficts you and screws up everybody else on pvp and pve.

 

No, what you just said last is a clear example of a misconception.  Just because you see a few rotten apples on the tree doesn't mean the entire massive tree is full of them.  Same thing for any negativity from pve side, not everyone is a highway griefer, unique corpse stealer or whatever else there is

[Marshlander 188]

I "tried" Epic twice so far for about a day each out of curiosity, two different kingdoms and servers (Elevation and Desertion).

 

In both instances I was greeted with wariness for being a possible spy, and both times this was overcome easily by speaking openly with people I met. In both instances I was then taken in by a friendly group and practically shown around the deed, offered some tools/access to resources and introduced to fellow villagers (of course I had no pretenses higher than being a noob). On Elevation the deed had typical defences which didn't thrill my aesthetic sense, but on Desertion I was stunned by the meticulous layout and design choices.

 

Both times I was only attacked by valrei mobs/trolls and the like, not other players, all of whom have treated me more or less courteously (if with an odd sense of humor at times).

 

I think I caused a lot of frowns by proceeding to build a cart first on Elevation... (which is the Freedomers first security measure, and worthless in PvP as such ).

 

All in all I just had a great time both of those times, but -

 

I quickly knew this isn't for me - just like joining a tightly-knit & highly active PvE deed wouldn't be - because of my casual style and RL commitments. On Freedom, only my crops complain by turning brown if I don't manage to log in for a week and a half due to a bout of workload. On a PvP server, I feel I'd be letting down my comrades if I didn't log in for two consecutive days or couldn't log in to react to emergencies.

 

For active players looking for tight-knit communities, PvP seems like a good choice. What could be difficult is that on Freedom, you can just settle and get to know your neighbours slowly, while in a PvP community you just have to join up with a group right away, pretty much.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Marshlander

[Klaa 4,872]

All pvpers are pve-ers, but not all pve-ers are pvpers.

[asdf 297]

Personally I don't pvp simply because I don't have the skills required. From what I hear, a huge axe is absolutely not useful on pvp, meaning I'd have to grind ls+lms. I suppose one day I will. Or maybe I'll just wait till they make other kinds of weapons viable on pvp as well.

Similarly it seems my PoK will put me at a huge disadvantage vs SotG users. I suppose it's fair that "casual pvpers" with PoK aren't as good as "pvp builds" with SotG, but from what I hear, I'd be like a 30 lvl WoW character trying to duel a 80 lvl toon.

[Mordraug 2,542]

 

But in all seriousness, I don't see challenge as the way to lure more people into PvP.

 

Now some "safe pvp" area in each Freedom server, something of a 100x100 deed with a fortification on each side that a GM can "magic wand" once a week to repair all the damage done by battles, where people can't be looted, then ride/sail back home after the hostilities are over or they're bored... that could get some people warming up to the mechanics and strategies before risking what amounts to real life cash on a full-fledged PvP server.

 

Could create a whole new market of Freedomer mercenaries/seasoned cannon fodder for Chaos.

 

Trying to get "freedomers" to "become chaosers" will never truly work imho. And naval combat needs to be improved in Wurm because BLOCKADE CHAOS!!!! 

[Cornchips 3,037]

 risking what amounts to real life cash on a full-fledged PvP server.

 

[BrQQQ 2,854]

I really think that it's not clear that people will literally

give

you

anything

without you paying for it, for free, to be on par with everyone else

[Klaa 4,872]

Well to a point... its not like you will be given dragon armor for free. Until trust is earned.

Basically though, aye the established pvp groups are usually more than willing to supply players.

Just dont be surprised if you act like a jerk, and get burned (and again and again... and then some more just for fun).

[Mordraug 2,542]

I meant more the razed deed aspect.  If the main thing keeping a player on Wurm is the building/terraforming aspect, Chaos isn't the place to be as that's volatile.  

 

Sure, you'll always have armor and a bed, but so does any footsoldier.

 

If you want a deed that isn't a fortress, the PvP crowd has made it rather clear "expect to be robbed" on maaaaaany threads.  I mean, on Freedom you gotta triplecheck your locks as it is.

 

And if you feel like your castle "looks awesome", don't get too attached on Chaos.  Might never get hit, or might be gone the next weekend.  Meanwhile every tile has an associated cost.

 

Not arguing btw, just clarifying.

[ownerpure5 322]

There should be an option, not enough kingdoms/teams to join in. and also golden apples.

[Judicator 539]

I really think that it's not clear that people will literally

give

you

anything

without you paying for it, for free, to be on par with everyone else 

[Propheteer 7,139]

It's just not true. People will give you basic gear, thats 30% weaker than the special material supreme gear they are wearing, so you will be good as meat shield for the veteran pvp'ers, but not much more.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Propheteer

[watkins141 994]

to people who picked that you would like to learn the ropes, you should PM me on forums

[sunsvortex 599]

I see many people posting about the "misconceptions" and "thats not how it is" all implying if those people would just try it they will see its just not the way they think it is. Thats such an odd position to take. There simply is no point to pvp other than to fight other players...if you like that kind of thing.... fine...clearly there are many who do not. The "why dont you play pvp" threads always end up coming across like a snake oil salesman or drug dealer peddling thier wares to people who are just simply uninterested. If they dont want to play it, then you have 2 "real" options, accept thier decision and peddle elsewhere or go back and make your wares more attractive to a wider audience.

 

As long as I have been playing WURM...the choice has always been neither of those 2, its always been some form of brute force, like saying..its nothing like what you think, if you will only try it, you will see, and then somehow those people will magically like it.OR...lets put a lot of extra content on the pvp side to get people to try it, surely if they just try it they will see its not like what they think. To take that a bit further and add an example,

 

I dont like pickles. I dont need a reason not to like them, allthough I do have one, I see no need to tell anyone why, I just dont eat them. So lets say one day someone says ok, why dont you like pickles, and they continue to ask and annoy me till I tell them something in hopes they will just simply accept my answer and go away. I tell them "it goes against the natural order of things to soak a perfectly good cucumber in a vat of nasty ass vinegar mixed with, of all things...Dill...and then purposely consume it." They respond with a litany of rebuttles telling me everything from, not all pickles are like that, just eat a little bit at a time, you have an underdeveloped sense of taste, its an aquired taste, they are good for me ect ect ect ect ect. So now I try something else because my initial response made things worse and this person is now more than ever determined to get me to try it when I allready have and have determined that I dont like them. So I respond with a different answer - im allergic to them. SO they now respond with personal attack rebuttles -"your lying- you just want me to stop asking you about it so now your just making stuff up", or," well there are pickles that dont have x ingredient in it so you should be fine", ect ect ect ect...Finally I get tired of this person who simply cannot take a hint or respect my answer and simply ignore them or beat them into unconciousness...whichever would be the most effective at getting them to accept my answer. So exactly how productive was this approach in making me like pickles.........It was a complete fail. Ill never like pickles, and will be a lot more jaded now because it seems that people that like pickles are not exacly respectful to people who dont like pickles.

 

Now...go back up and replace the word pickle with PvP. See what happens.

 

So why dont i like pickles?...there is no reward for consuming one, not for me at least. And in fact, for me, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth of nasty vinegar and dill. I dont like that taste and I dont want it. Thats all the reason i need. Now, does anyone think that by continuing this approach the answers you get will be insightfull or tell tell about possible issues that are preventing me from liking pickles? perhaps, but perhaps not as in the example Ill say anything to get you to stop being annoying about the subject. So any answer I have provided may or may not be helpful, more likely its nothing more than an argumentative point. So if you wanted to get more people eating pickles, how would you do it, by asking everyone why they like or dislike pickles, and the ones that dont, continually harrass them till they give you an answer?

 

one final example

 

If one wants to increase the number of customers in a strip bar....its probably not very productive or in ones best interests to go to churches or AA meetings to advertise. Traditionally one would try to put the advertising to where one hopes to get the greatest return on investment. The point being if someone is not interested, all the threads in the world are not going to change thier minds. Persistence often leads to annoyance in such cases, which always work against you.

 

How about trying to tweak the product, making it more attractive to a larger audience. How about improving it to appeal to more than a very insular ideological view of pvp, How about reworking it so that it is rewarding to a larger playerbase. Never once have I seen this attempted....not once. I have seen the badgering and peddling for years........hows that working out? Looking over at the numbers on the pvp servers...doesnt look like its working very well. Maybe its worth a shot to try something different, something that has had some proven results shown from similar pvp environs in other games, maybe do anything but whats being done now and at least try.

 

As a matter of full disclosure -  I play pvp all the time, on many games, Eve, Rift, and a half dozen other games, Archeage being the most recent. I happen to like pvp quite a bit. Just not Wurms version...it tastes bad so there is no reward for me ...therefore...its pointless.

Edited December 8, 2014 by sunsvortex

[Kirtah 54]

But lots of PVEers say they hate PVP or aren't interested in it without having tried it, and when they post clearly wrong ideas about how it works, it makes sense to respond to that, no?

 

If you have 100% no interest at all that's nbd, but some people are acting like they would PVP if only for _____

[sunsvortex 599]

But lots of PVEers say they hate PVP or aren't interested in it without having tried it, and when they post clearly wrong ideas about how it works, it makes sense to respond to that, no?

 

If you have 100% no interest at all that's nbd, but some people are acting like they would PVP if only for _____

[Othob Rithol 700]

I answered pretty broadly, but my objections to Wurm PvP tend to center around:

1. The personality that tends to be drawn to PvP in games. Not everyone fits my stereotype, but enough do. Immature, confrontational, dishonorable, rude, opportunistic. I know there is plenty of that outside PvP too, but at least on non-pvp servers those types have constraints on their behavior.
   
2. The personality and personalities of the Wurm pvp community specifically. I know that forum persona and in-game persona offer differ, but there are a number of people I just can't imagine interacting with daily and not loathing.
   
3. Wurm combat is dull. I'm sure there is more to it in a big pvp brawl, but I'm just not into the meh model being used.
   
4. Wurm's long history of allowing people to benefit from exploitation.
   
5. The stakes are too high for my taste. Full loot, deed destruction etc. No thanks.
   
6. I hate voice chat. I so want to spend my day listening to some emo whine, hearing game constantly thrown at the one chick, dogs barking and some guy breathing heavy on the mike. Been there, done that.
   

Edit: Just want to point out that I am not universally against pvping, just in Wurm. I've been an active pvper in several games (although less as I age/mature mostly because of point 1 above). Wurm's ratio of pros/cons just isn't enticing enough to draw me in, although I might show up for a later round of Challenge.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Othob Rithol

[Kirtah 54]

 

at least on non-pvp servers those types have constraints on their behavior.

 

[Audrel 2,223]

But lots of PVEers say they hate PVP or aren't interested in it without having tried it, and when they post clearly wrong ideas about how it works, it makes sense to respond to that, no?

 

If you have 100% no interest at all that's nbd, but some people are acting like they would PVP if only for _____

 

I have fought AI critters with the combat system we have. Predictable combat that is not predictable because the combat system is not good here. All the skill in the world doesn't help an RNG dice roll. The dice decide the outcome almost every time. Just stand in one spot and beat on a troll. You will win, you will lose. Now actively engage it. You have the same odds. Give a better system, I will PvP. Plain and simple. I PvP in other games. I don't PvP in Wurm.