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To PvE: Why don't you PvP?

Why don't you want to PvP?  

302 members have voted

  1. 1. What is keeping you from wanting to PvP?

    • PvP seems boring
    • PvP mechanics seem broken
    • I don't want to lose all my stuff when I die
    • The community seems harsh and/or negative
    • I don't think that I can catch up in terms of stats/skills
    • I don't feel that I know enough about game mechanics
    • I don't feel that I know enough about PvP tactics
    • I don't want to use VOIP
    • No idea - never really thought about it
    • I already PvP and need an option to vote for
    • Go home Buddy; I work alone. (I don't like the group aspect)
    • I don't want constant conflict
    • There doesn't seem to be enough action on current servers
    • I don't want my deed to be raided while I'm offline
    • I am afraid that I will be mistaken for a spy and killed or outcast
    • I am afraid that I will be killed as soon as I spawn
    • I just don't want to PvP in Wurm.
    • I don't like PvP-oriented games.
  2. 2. If you were to try to PvP, which server (cluster) would you choose?

    • Chaos
    • Epic
    • Challenge
    • I already PvP, but I find my current server/cluster choice to be inadequate
    • I'm picking this because I PvP and don't have another suitable option
    • I'm not going to PvP
  3. 3. If you were given the chance to learn the ropes of PvP from an established group, would you?

    • Yes
    • No
    • I'm already a PvP player
    • I play on a PvP server, but I still feel that this would be a good opportunity for me


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What's interesting with the PvP people is that they always follow the logic (and I've seen it in other games too) that "we can't avoid doing PvE stuff we don't like to do, so why should you be allowed to avoid PvP if you don't like it?"


 


Here's a magnificent example of that in another game (can't comment on that game specifically, since I haven't played it, but there's nothing new in what he says):


 



 


The idea of a sandbox mmorpg is to have a community of all different kind of players mended together into one world. The non-pvpers depend on the pvpers to defend them, and the pvpers depend on the non-pvpers to help craft bases/armors/weapons. But the non-pvpers, having the alternative option to make their own world and make it "NO PVP", will happily craft/build together with their friends on private servers. Servers that they can kick users from for no reason at all.



 


Which is just that, a predator who doesn't like it when his potential prey is provided with an option to avoid him. He doesn't want people to be happy doing their own things elsewhere where he can't reach them. He doesn't want those people to be the ones setting rules about who gets to play on their server for it is he, the leetgod bringer of pain, who should have every right over every individual on that server. That ###### who griefed Silent Hill and other places on PvE servers here belongs to that same species. It's Hannibal Lecter complaining that nobody wants to serve (or rather, be served) as his entrée.


 


Also see how the the non-PvPers are "depending" on the PvPers, whereas the PvPers just want to have someone to carry out menial tasks that don't interest them. It just feeds an enormous power trip which guarantees the non-PvPers will never be respected because they don't PvP (and are automatically assumed to be sucking at said PvP, because otherwise how could they refuse to do it?).


 


I've reached the point in my life where I want to steer clear of psychopaths if I can.


Edited by Vetarnic
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Sandbox != no rules and never has. When I was a kid, sandboxes always had rules. No wrecking other people's stuff. No kicking sand in the other kids' faces. No eating the sand etc. Sandbox has always meant freedom and creativity, not violence.


Edited by Shiraek
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I find it so very amusing how every game where PVE exists in the same realm as PVP, you get PVP oriented folks who constantly trying to coax PVE to "come join in the fun".  The same rationale is used to attempt to get more folks on their servers/play style.  But why?  What is this constant need to convince people to play the way you like to play?  What are you going to get out of it? 


 


My first thought is it is so you can have more targets which may translate to more "fun".  I can see that argument, but given you are already established and familiar with the mechanics you naturally have an upper hand.  So you're not looking for more of a challenge you just want the sense of having more "power" over others.


 


The need to lord over people is the reason these topics always come up, in any game.  Wurm's PVP offers nothing different from say, EvE PVP except that the mechanics are much more boring and that's saying a lot when compared to EvE. 


 


But, bottom line, I think people who PvE just don't want to deal with some blowhard telling them what to do.  All you PvP folks like to live in your fantasy world where you are lorded over in some way or another, but to assume we all desire that is just silly. 


 


If PvP were really that much fun, then it would speak for itself. The fact that you constantly need to sell it should be an indication that it simply isn't that entertaining.  I wish Rolf would get that through his head. 


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Damn you Seancarl that was a badass argument over there :P 


 


But it's not always like this. A lot of people are trying to convince freedomers to join PVP because sometime in the past, someone, somewhere, convinced them to join too. They took that leap of faith and they got amazed by the results, so amazed that they feel an obligation to continue the tradition. Of curse there exist those that try out PvP and go back to freedom as they don't find it fitting to their play style. 


 


Even at that case, the initial image about a pvp server might be completelly wrong due to unfortunate circumstances. The first time I tried to join Chaos I got dissappointed and returned back to freedom as the village I joined was inactive and the folks not that welcoming. The second time though, the circumstances were far better, since I happened to join a village very close to action. That's how I got hooked.


 


The baseline is that a pvp server is not a monolithic gameplay like freedom. It's not about making a house, then a village and then grinding your skills. You have to find your own playstyle in a pvp server to feel comfortable. With so many choices in a pvp server one has the responsibility to find the playstyle that fits him and not have it served to him. You can be a soldier of a big kingdom, a rebel of a small force, a pirate, a crafter, a pvper, a raider, a defence builder, a kingdom organizer, hell with the democratic prodecures most kingdoms have you could even end up ruling a kingdom.


 


Don't ask the server to show you the way cause you will be dissappointed. Instead pave your own. This is what PVP is all about.


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The baseline is that a pvp server is not a monolithic gameplay like freedom. It's not about making a house, then a village and then grinding your skills. You have to find your own playstyle in a pvp server to feel comfortable. With so many choices in a pvp server one has the responsibility to find the playstyle that fits him and not have it served to him. You can be a soldier of a big kingdom, a rebel of a small force, a pirate, a crafter, a pvper, a raider, a defence builder, a kingdom organizer, hell with the democratic prodecures most kingdoms have you could even end up ruling a kingdom.

 

You can be any or all of these things as long as the people who already exist there allow it in one way or another. 

 

PvP is a social game built around violence or the threat of violence.  You can't set out to be the leader of anything unless you have the social skills.  I appreciate the challenge that comes with trying to herd a bunch of cats.  Building a house is a lot less engaging.  I can see the appeal and some folks really get into it so I understand why folks PvP. 

 

I don't know.  I've be involved in real PvP when I was in the Army serving in Iraq.  I guess the fun of forcing your will upon people faded with that experience. 

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Thank you for your service in real life, Seancarl, and you bring up a very valid point.


Edited by Tristanc

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I'd 'like' your posts Seancarl, but I gave all mine to Brash today.


 


Now. Issle/Sizzle, if I was like the OP I'd be all up in your face barking for your use of "monolithic" to describe non-pvp servers. It's a false and rather demeaning characterization. But I do get where you are coming from and for a person that likes competition a pvp server is probably better for you and a non-pvp server probably seems pretty boring.


 


But there is extensive and varied game play available on non-pvp servers just as much as on pvp servers. The only difference is that there is a war (or not, so I have been told) going on pvp servers and so raiding and combat are an option. Some people like an external 'cause' to bring them together with others in competitive sport. Other than that, we play the same game. Last time around I was a wealthy crafter and crapped plate armor. This time I'm strictly a builder making a fine castle. Last time I was in the leadership of a large community. This time I am a hermit. I've been a priest, I've killed dragons, I've helped carve highways through wild terrain, lost prized horses escaping monster filled canyons, and I've even fought in tournaments. Sometimes I'm a farmer and sometimes I just chew through rocks for sweet sweet shiny gemstones..Seems pretty varied to me.


 


Neither play-style is innately better, but one or the other might be more fun for you as an individual. 


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In my opinion as someone who started playing the game when it was near the end of beta years ago (when there were no PVE servers), PVP is how the game was meant to be played.


 


It adds so much to the game, even if the mechanics are admittedly not the best. Politics, land control, and a sense of danger that just doesn't exist on PVE servers. Also a reason beyond collecting horses and shinies to collaborate with others within your village and kingdom. It's immensely gratifying to work towards a common goal (whether that's land conquest, crafting for fellow villagers, town projects etc.) with friends and take part in battles that have significance.


 


A lot of people are afraid of being 'forced' to PVP, which is not true at all. You still have the freedom to solely craft if you wish, or strictly fight. There are players all over that spectrum, and everyone can play the role they want and still have fun in whatever kingdom they're apart of.


 


My only suggestion to anyone looking to try a PVP server, is go to Chaos. Storm is great for getting a feel of how combat works, but imo not for the original 'feel' of Wurm. I do agree with Othob above this post, that neither play-style is innately better. Just giving my two cents as someone who has played almost exclusively on Chaos since it's introduction.


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What I don't understand from the pve crowd is that a thread asking why pve only people don't pvp somehow means that pvpers are trying to force people to pvp?  Or that we're looking for more targets or whatever nonsense this is?   I've never seen someone even hint that people shouldn't be able to avoid pvp, and if they did it's probably a troll post which has nothing to do with pve or pvp. 


 


It's just finding out what separates the playstyles, and if those reasons are ones that can easily be helped/cleared up, or maybe even help people that would want to try pvp actually find a good place to start, what's wrong with that?  Everyone gets there are people that want to pve only, and just simply don't want to pvp, but why is there a need for so many hostile posts?  It's not an attack or forcing anything it's a question/discussion...


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First of all: my compliments to the creator of this poll, SotG_is_OP.


With all the heated discussions he continues to be polite and genuinely interested in the opinions of everybody, something which is no easy feat with all the screaming back and forth in this thread. So kudos to you, Sir.

 



I must however confess that PVP in Wurm annoys me.



 

I simply don't want to play PVP in Wurm, period.



I don't enjoy destroying other people's work/character/insert other timesink and I don't want the immersion Wurm PVP demands.



 

Wurm for me is a place I can relax. IRL my work is pretty competitive so I come here to just fret about my hedges or ponder about the possibility of breeding battle pigs. (that can kill spiders. not people. just spiders. don't try to catch me on that)



 

The annoying part about Wurm PVP is that it's community is as vocal as any other PVP community in the games I played; a community that is always smaller then it's  PVE counterpart and is always able to convince the creators that they are the backbone of the game, so there is a disproportionate effort in creating content for them.



 

Unfortunately we  "carebears" are in the majority. A character trait of us is that we are "nice", avoid "conflict", and in general are more easy to please, so we won't get our knickers in a knot when one tiny little combat thingy is tweaked a wee little bit. So we shout less. But please (yes, we say please, since we try to please, carebears that we are): don't try to tell us we are misinformed weaklings that with just a bit of guidance from The Real Players Of This Game, will see the error of their ways.

Since I think that a lot of PVE players recognize what a few people above me said: Rolf doesn't understand the real charm of his own game. This is the best PVE sandbox game out there. For crafting, building, and planning new dreams. He tried to create the perfect pvp game but ended up with something even better, the perfect slow paced sandbox out there.

For me Wurm is like reading a book. The clunky graphics even aid in this feeling; the pictures you make in your own head are always more amazing then what you can see in real life. And when I dig down my hill, I see an old Inca capital with terraces in my head. When I shape my harbor, I see the port where vessels went on their journey to the face that launched a thousand ships.

So don't tell me I am misinformed about the game I enjoy the most. I exactly know why I like it.

Edited by Dame
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What I don't understand from the pve crowd is that a thread asking why pve only people don't pvp somehow means that pvpers are trying to force people to pvp?  Or that we're looking for more targets or whatever nonsense this is?   I've never seen someone even hint that people shouldn't be able to avoid pvp, and if they did it's probably a troll post which has nothing to do with pve or pvp. 

 

It's just finding out what separates the playstyles, and if those reasons are ones that can easily be helped/cleared up, or maybe even help people that would want to try pvp actually find a good place to start, what's wrong with that?  Everyone gets there are people that want to pve only, and just simply don't want to pvp, but why is there a need for so many hostile posts?  It's not an attack or forcing anything it's a question/discussion...

 

Consider this;  can you find me one poll where the question is "PvP:  Why don't you PvE?" 

 

Do you know why you don't find that poll?  Because PvE players don't really care why others enjoy PvP.  PvE doesn't depend on the actions of others to bring content to their game.

 

For PvP, it depends on others.  Without someone to bully/boss/enforce your will upon, PvP server loses it's appeal.  What's the point of PvP without noobs to pwn, amirite?

 

Don't pretend that it's purely scientific study of different play styles.  PvP feeds off the metaphoric blood of new players to satiate the existing player base and these threads are attempts to draw in as many fresh faces as it can. 

 

So go on with these recruitment threads.  I just wish you folks were more honest as to why you are "polling".  Just say "hey, we're lonely over here because we generally abuse anyone/everyone and they quit.  Wouldn't someone else like to come over so I can inflate my ego by having you submit to me in one way or another?  It'd really make me feel more important in this world." 

 

Ok so I got a little hyperbolic there towards the end.  I will admit that the PvP crowd in Wurm land doesn't seem as "schadenfreude" as I've seen in other games, but then again you get the likes of that Nosfirebird who seem to do just fine there so who really knows.

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I do like when questions answer themselves:


http://forum.wurmonline.com/index.php?/topic/116204-why-did-the-resource-spawns-get-changed-midway/


 


Rarely do I see a PvP game, pick your genre, where there isn't one side heavily outnumbering the rest, steamrolling, then gloating like it had been a hard-won fight.  Now that would be tolerable except they then start acting like brats about it.


 


RARELY seen a PvP crowd's winning side sitting out or rolling characters on losing sides to "balance things out a bit so it's a fight and not a massacre for a change".  When the massacred side shows their displeasure, well... *points to linked thread*


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Consider this; can you find me one poll where the question is "PvP: Why don't you PvE?"

Do you know why you don't find that poll? Because PvE players don't really care why others enjoy PvP. PvE doesn't depend on the actions of others to bring content to their game.

For PvP, it depends on others. Without someone to bully/boss/enforce your will upon, PvP server loses it's appeal. What's the point of PvP without noobs to pwn, amirite?

Don't pretend that it's purely scientific study of different play styles. PvP feeds off the metaphoric blood of new players to satiate the existing player base and these threads are attempts to draw in as many fresh faces as it can.

So go on with these recruitment threads. I just wish you folks were more honest as to why you are "polling". Just say "hey, we're lonely over here because we generally abuse anyone/everyone and they quit. Wouldn't someone else like to come over so I can inflate my ego by having you submit to me in one way or another? It'd really make me feel more important in this world."

Ok so I got a little hyperbolic there towards the end. I will admit that the PvP crowd in Wurm land doesn't seem as "schadenfreude" as I've seen in other games, but then again you get the likes of that Nosfirebird who seem to do just fine there so who really knows.

U sir have met a windmill

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Consider this;  can you find me one poll where the question is "PvP:  Why don't you PvE?" 

 

Do you know why you don't find that poll?  Because PvE players don't really care why others enjoy PvP.  PvE doesn't depend on the actions of others to bring content to their game.

 

For PvP, it depends on others.  Without someone to bully/boss/enforce your will upon, PvP server loses it's appeal.  What's the point of PvP without noobs to pwn, amirite?

 

Don't pretend that it's purely scientific study of different play styles.  PvP feeds off the metaphoric blood of new players to satiate the existing player base and these threads are attempts to draw in as many fresh faces as it can. 

 

So go on with these recruitment threads.  I just wish you folks were more honest as to why you are "polling".  Just say "hey, we're lonely over here because we generally abuse anyone/everyone and they quit.  Wouldn't someone else like to come over so I can inflate my ego by having you submit to me in one way or another?  It'd really make me feel more important in this world." 

 

Ok so I got a little hyperbolic there towards the end.  I will admit that the PvP crowd in Wurm land doesn't seem as "schadenfreude" as I've seen in other games, but then again you get the likes of that Nosfirebird who seem to do just fine there so who really knows.

 

So basically all you did was reply with another hostile post full of false statements for absolutely no reason

 

You know why there isn't a thread for that, because all pvp is, is pve with attacking others enabled.  We build deeds, breed horses, craft for days, etc.  pvp isn't possible without pve

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Pristine players 51/400 Release players 81/400 Xanadu players 265/2000 Storm players 46/3000


 


Statements don't seem that false, Gary... numbers on Challenge plummeted preeeetty badly after the whole fencing the spawns and resource spots happened.


 


And do tell me that the thread I linked on my previous post is "role play, they actually get along very well" =P 


 


 


Though I'll translate it to PvPese .... "Rekt, he pwnt u with his reply, go QQ elsewhere" 


 


*impish grin*


Edited by Mordraug

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The passive agressive PVP and the PVP born politics I see on freedom are enough for me.   The Choas players that come over bring enough PVP drama that I don't to be a part of PVP to enjoy watching it :)


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What I don't understand from the pve crowd is that a thread asking why pve only people don't pvp somehow means that pvpers are trying to force people to pvp?  Or that we're looking for more targets or whatever nonsense this is?   I've never seen someone even hint that people shouldn't be able to avoid pvp, and if they did it's probably a troll post which has nothing to do with pve or pvp. 

 

It's just finding out what separates the playstyles, and if those reasons are ones that can easily be helped/cleared up, or maybe even help people that would want to try pvp actually find a good place to start, what's wrong with that?  Everyone gets there are people that want to pve only, and just simply don't want to pvp, but why is there a need for so many hostile posts?  It's not an attack or forcing anything it's a question/discussion...

 

It's the fact that these people always have to have the conception that there's some plot in the works against them, and often times, it manifests itself in the form of Wurm paranoia.  In a sense, they're right.  PvE Wurm is independent, so naturally there wouldn't be damn polls asking why PvPers don't PvE.  It's common sense, and most of you are smart enough to realize that if you stop being so pig headed and 1 dimensional.  PvP is a community game, so it makes sense for them to probe, the grand conspiracies you all develop after that point are your own works of delusion.

 

And Seancarl, I find that my fellow servicemen who feel the need to mention their past to prove a point, tend to be the biggest POGs.

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It's the fact that these people always have to have the conception that there's some plot in the works against them, and often times, it manifests itself in the form of Wurm paranoia.  In a sense, they're right.  PvE Wurm is independent, so naturally there wouldn't be damn polls asking why PvPers don't PvE.  It's common sense, and most of you are smart enough to realize that if you stop being so pig headed and 1 dimensional.  PvP is a community game, so it makes sense for them to probe, the grand conspiracies you all develop after that point are your own works of delusion.

 

And Seancarl, I find that my fellow servicemen who feel the need to mention their past to prove a point, tend to be the biggest POGs.

 

Ha, classic.  Busting out POG on me in an attempt to shame me for not agreeing with your point of view?  For those who don't know, POG is a euphemism commonly used in the combat arms MOS.  The concept is, if you aren't combat arms then you are a "piece of garbage".  After all, if you're just a cook or in water purification your life isn't worth that of an Infantryman.  It's an infantile concept used by infantile minds.  It's akin to using other schoolyard bully tactics like calling people nerd, dork, dweeb, loser or one commonly used by the gaming PvP crowd, Carebear.  All used in an attempt to emasculate or embarrass someone for not being like yourself.

 

That said, I generally would agree with you. But in this instance my past may shape where I'm coming from.  I used to enjoy PvP but now I don't and perhaps it is because of my past personal experiences.

 

I'll leave this topic alone though.  I think I've made my point and if the best argument you can come up with is "yeah, well, you're a POG" then I'm wasting my time discussing this topic. 

 

And maybe you are all right.  Maybe I'm fighting windmills.  This is all in my head and PvP is the example of how great we are as a society.  Tribalism has worked in the past so there is no reason to rise above that, even in our fantasies.  Lets get our kill on!  \o/

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Would somebody please close and lock this thread?  All it is doing is starting another argument fest about PVE vs PVP, and it's really getting old.


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Would somebody please close and lock this thread?  All it is doing is starting another argument fest about PVE vs PVP, and it's really getting old.

 

Don't like it, don't read it. Some of these last responses I have found pretty interesting, in particular Dame's. I find my attitude to be similar, in that Wurm's creative offerings are a refreshing break from real world concerns and their limitations. And yes, the true gem here that Rolf has created has nothing at all to do with pvp. Possibly to his own surprise?

 

*remembers Othob's old "artwork" comparison*

 

=Ayes=

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Pvp games usually fail because people join the winning team and long time pvp people eventually join the same team also because they become friends. Then you have a situation where all who enjoy PVP play together against noobs, for awhile they band together and kill noob until the noobs quit and stop joining the game. Then the Pvp community start complaining about how boring people are that dont want to play on pvp server. The only fix I can see for this is a server like Challenge that is reset often and that offers rewards for every team. Greed might divide the Pvp community otherwise its pretty much pointless to join anyone but the strongest team.


 


You can see it in games like World of warcraft where pvp servers are divided into horde and alliance servers. You can also see the same thing happening in Ultima Online where it used to be Order vs Chaos, eventually everyone who enjoyed pvp simply went Chaos. The Order guys became friends with the people who enjoyed the same thing as they do. Order people also used excuses and said people who dont pvp against Chaos are boring so lets just kill them. Its just a natural reaction.


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Sorry, but this is getting nowhere fast.  I see the same arguments come up in every thread like this, and it always devolves into name-calling and subtle threats.  This one has already started that, so please lock it now before it gets worse.  Nothing is being served by this.  Only purpose it is serving now is getting egos stroked.


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You live in the state where weed is legal and you're coming in here all sour demanding everyone stop a discussion because you don't like it?  


 


Go smoke some, let people do their thing.


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See, that's exactly what I'm talking about, nothing but name calling and subtle threats.  Thanks, you just proved my point.


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How is telling someone to chill, let people do their thing, and go smoke one name calling or a threat?


 


Name calling would have been saying you're here **because** weed's legal in Colorado, not that you should go enjoy the legal reprieve and relax.


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